Sandor Clegane v. 11

[only me]

"I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf"

My interpretation: I should have taken her away from there, her body and her soul and I should not have left anything for Tyrion/Lannisters. And above all he wants Arya to kill him. I think people emphasize too much this fuck her bloody thing but he also says he should have ripped her heart out. I do not think that he meant killing her. Or maybe my english is just too limited :). Also, there is nothing about how Arya interpretates that (or does she even care), she just goes on and on about Mycah.

I might be alone with this. But that`s OK :)

[headtrip_honey]

I also think the phrase "fucked her bloody" is so shocking that it overshadows the rest of what he says.

He also says he should have ripped her heart out, an act I think we can all agree that he wouldn't ACTUALLY want to do. Therefore, both statements are him emphasizing just how terrible he feels for leaving her behind (just as he felt terrible that he "let" her be beat) to consequently marry Tyrion, who the Hound clearly thinks is some kind of deviant (well, he's not TERRIBLY far off ;) ).

(null)

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

So perhaps Sandor, who visits whores, but not I suspect with the same passionate regularity that Tyrion does (so in this allegory might be the equivalent of a guy who watches a little bit of light pornography), assumes that Tyrion is not only raping Sansa, but doing so in an obscene manner (because he is the equivalent of a guy who watches hardcore kinky pornography obsessively and thus thinks that the women portrayed are enjoying it and that said pornography is realistic).

So that could be part of it.

*remember that all women concerned had suffered infibulation/FGM

possible, and warrants further investigation. i've read a bit of ayaan's stuff - though just a bit, anf FGM makes me sick.... anyway, back on topic. Tyrion is a whoremonger, that much is undeniable, and he does have high standards given his own appearance, though that could be explained as overcompensation for feelings of low self-esteem due to constant scorn from his father during childhood. and, come to think of it, i don't think i ever remember Sandor ever going whoring even once... when did that happen?

Tyrion, who the Hound clearly thinks is some kind of deviant (well, he's not TERRIBLY far off ;) ).

I don't really blame him for killing Tywin (well, not much, anyway...) - he had it coming. But, I do think he could have been more merciful with Shae, despite her selling him out as a witness during the trial about Joff's murder. I think she was just scared out of her mind of Tywin and Cersei.... poor girl.

[Toro]

When Tyrion makes his tongue in cheek confession in the Eyrie, its plain to see he was a troublemaking child fond of practical jokes. The Hound would make an excellent target, being deformed, solemn, and in service to his family. I would be surprised if there wasn't some horrible Tyrion/Sandor practical joke that causes Sandor's feelings towards Tyrion. It might never be written, but there is tension between them from the first book, 'If he forgets, be a good dog and remind him' etc.

Also, Tyrion, in the 'What is the meaning of this!' scene, is the only one who outright stops Sansa from being beaten. The Hound brings her, stands there, and only says 'Enough'. Tyrion is the only one with the pull to actually stop the beating, only because of an accident of birth. This has to be humiliating for Sandor, that a dwarf has to protect his love while he stands there impotent. I think alot of the Sandor/Tyrion rage comes from that scene.

Course, what he would have done if Tyrion hadn't have shown up is up for grabs. Hounds slap harder than dwarves :)

[voodooqueen126]

possible, and warrants further investigation. i've read a bit of ayaan's stuff - though just a bit, anf FGM makes me sick.... anyway, back on topic. Tyrion is a whoremonger, that much is undeniable, and he does have high standards given his own appearance, though that could be explained as overcompensation for feelings of low self-esteem due to constant scorn from his father during childhood. and, come to think of it, i don't think i ever remember Sandor ever going whoring even once... when did that happen?

When Tyrion is trying to get Joffrey to a brothel to calm him down a bit??? he thinks to separate the Hound from Joffrey and and mentions that "a man must sleep, whore and gamble" and Varys says "the hound does all these things". Let's face it, Sandor is almost as ugly as Tyrion (except not deformed and congenitally) so how else would he be getting laid at the age of 28.

I don't really blame him for killing Tywin (well, not much, anyway...) - he had it coming. But, I do think he could have been more merciful with Shae, despite her selling him out as a witness during the trial about Joff's murder. I think she was just scared out of her mind of Tywin and Cersei.... poor girl.

deviant doesn't refer to just a murderer, it refers to someone who is deviates from the sexual norm Ithe connotation is negative).

Homosexuals were referred to as "deviants" for instance.

the Somali guy was a deviant. Tyrion's level of whoremongering and his behaviour with them, borders on deviant (atleast a lot of women find it off putting)

[only me]

Also, Tyrion, in the 'What is the meaning of this!' scene, is the only one who outright stops Sansa from being beaten. The Hound brings her, stands there, and only says 'Enough'. Tyrion is the only one with the pull to actually stop the beating, only because of an accident of birth. This has to be humiliating for Sandor, that a dwarf has to protect his love while he stands there impotent. I think alot of the Sandor/Tyrion rage comes from that scene.

Course, what he would have done if Tyrion hadn't have shown up is up for grabs. Hounds slap harder than dwarves :)

And Sansa as a courteous little bird might even feel some gratitude towards that bloody dwarf. Oh, he would not like that.

But I think that poor Sandor would have just got Sansa and himself killed if he would have "slapped" him then. And he knows that. And he hates that.

[Candor]

When Tyrion makes his tongue in cheek confession in the Eyrie, its plain to see he was a troublemaking child fond of practical jokes. The Hound would make an excellent target, being deformed, solemn, and in service to his family. I would be surprised if there wasn't some horrible Tyrion/Sandor practical joke that causes Sandor's feelings towards Tyrion. It might never be written, but there is tension between them from the first book, 'If he forgets, be a good dog and remind him' etc.

Also, Tyrion, in the 'What is the meaning of this!' scene, is the only one who outright stops Sansa from being beaten. The Hound brings her, stands there, and only says 'Enough'. Tyrion is the only one with the pull to actually stop the beating, only because of an accident of birth. This has to be humiliating for Sandor, that a dwarf has to protect his love while he stands there impotent. I think alot of the Sandor/Tyrion rage comes from that scene.

Course, what he would have done if Tyrion hadn't have shown up is up for grabs. Hounds slap harder than dwarves :)

I think this probably ticked him off quite badly.

At least she wore his cloak afterward.....? :dunno:

I think Tyrion has probably been a bit antagonistic in his joking with Sandor in the past,or maybe not personally, but as a member of the househould, Sandor might have observed some of Tyrions negative actions and formed an opinion that way.

[solarbear]

I believe he says what he says more out of anger at imagining her with Tyrion, who he despises, than out of a desire to actually rape her.

He just always cloaks what he says in a veil of crudity and violence.

[Zmeischa]

I think that "I should have raped her" bit is translated as "why am I not such a jerk as I want to look, how week of me" :). He regrets not being a man who would have raped Sansa, because such men feel no pain.

[headtrip_honey]

I think that "I should have raped her" bit is translated as "why am I not such a jerk as I want to look, how week of me" :). He regrets not being a man who would have raped Sansa, because such men feel no pain.

I disagree. I don't think he ever wanted to rape Sansa, or wanted to be someone who would rape Sansa. Rape is just not his M.O. - never has been. He's always emphasized how much Sansa fears him, which to me suggests that he WANTS her to NOT fear him. Thus, taking her unwillingly would be the opposite of his true desire.

I think it's as simple as him regretting not being able to save her, and regretting being such a brute to her.

[Toro]

Rape is just not his M.O. - never has been.

Let me start by saying that Sandor is one of my favorite characters, and I def hope we see him again, maybe not with Sansa, but heroically, such as when the Long Night reaches the Quiet Isle or some such.

With Sansa, definitely. Otherwise, idk. Its never mentioned in the books tmk whether or not that's a crime he has committed. It was certainly common in Westeros after battles, and considering all the other crimes the Hounds has been guilty of, I would be surprised if he hadn't. I think he went to her room the night of the Blackwater with that intention, but couldn't do it because he loved her. Sneaking into her room and hiding behind the drapes then popping out and grabbing her kindof gives the aura of bad intentions of that nature. I think he regrets loving her, regrets caring about her.

[Lady Meera Reed]

"I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf"

IMO he just said this (& the Mycah incident) to provoke Arya into giving him the gift of mercy.

Also, he's drunk & dying & feeling like his life's been a complete failure (got no closure with Gregor, just abandoned the Lannisters which might've made him feel worthless because he did grow up as their sworn shield) so he doesn't care what comes out of his mouth anymore ..

Another thing is that bitterness; someone he hates (Tyrion) gets to marry Sansa, which was someone he tried to protect & to connect to & at that moment one might feel that nullified everything he did, or tried to do. (I do hope I got my point across, english isn't my first language :blushing: )

[LuisDantas]

Its never mentioned in the books tmk whether or not that's a crime he has committed. It was certainly common in Westeros after battles, and considering all the other crimes the Hounds has been guilty of, I would be surprised if he hadn't. I think he went to her room the night of the Blackwater with that intention, but couldn't do it because he loved her. Sneaking into her room and hiding behind the drapes then popping out and grabbing her kindof gives the aura of bad intentions of that nature. I think he regrets loving her, regrets caring about her.

I picture Sandor as just the kind of person who wants to prove that he is better than that. If for no other reason, because he knows full well that it is just what his brother would do just because he could.

[brashcandy]

I actually preferred Sandor's "Should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out" to Loras' "when the sun has set no candle can replace it"

Leaving quickly :leaving:

[headtrip_honey]

Let me start by saying that Sandor is one of my favorite characters, and I def hope we see him again, maybe not with Sansa, but heroically, such as when the Long Night reaches the Quiet Isle or some such.

With Sansa, definitely. Otherwise, idk. Its never mentioned in the books tmk whether or not that's a crime he has committed. It was certainly common in Westeros after battles, and considering all the other crimes the Hounds has been guilty of, I would be surprised if he hadn't. I think he went to her room the night of the Blackwater with that intention, but couldn't do it because he loved her. Sneaking into her room and hiding behind the drapes then popping out and grabbing her kindof gives the aura of bad intentions of that nature. I think he regrets loving her, regrets caring about her.

Well, myself and others disagree. I think he went to her room with a drunken notion of gallantry, but his fear, anger, frustration, desire and his own drunkenness made him lash out and very nearly do that which I personally think he wouldn't. The Hound admits to killing women and children, but never to despoiling them. Somehow I believe him.

Personally I think he went to her room, and fell asleep on her bed while waiting. Sansa coming into the room woke him up, hence him lurching out of the darkness.

If he'd gone with the intention of raping her, he had plenty of time before he finally shoved her on the bed. Instead he talks about ~feelings and offers to take her away with him first.

[only me]

(I do hope I got my point across, english isn't my first language :blushing: )

You are not alone.

[Toro]

Well, myself and others disagree. I think he went to her room with a drunken notion of gallantry, but his fear, anger, frustration, desire and his own drunkenness made him lash out and very nearly do that which I personally think he wouldn't. The Hound admits to killing women and children, but never to despoiling them. Somehow I believe him.

Personally I think he went to her room, and fell asleep on her bed while waiting. Sansa coming into the room woke him up, hence him lurching out of the darkness.

If he'd gone with the intention of raping her, he had plenty of time before he finally shoved her on the bed. Instead he talks about ~feelings and offers to take her away with him first.

'But one day i'll have a song from you, whether you will it or no' - I always took that as a veiled threat of rape.

On the other hand.

'He is drunker than I've ever seen him. He was sleeping in my bed. What does he want here?'

I always thought that was girlish innocence, but maybe I read it wrong.

I guess maybe it comes down to who you want the characters to be. In my mind it's an even more beautiful love story with Sandor acting as you'd expect a man like that to act in such a situation but can't go through with it and instead offers to shield her from the coming storm. I don't remember any passages where he specifically denies rape as a crime, although he doesn't list it in the 'knights are for killing' speech. I can't read those passages without feeling a vague sense of menace towards Sansa from Sandor, and what would he be menacing? Murder? Why?

[Zmeischa]

I disagree. I don't think he ever wanted to rape Sansa, or wanted to be someone who would rape Sansa.

I don't think he ever wanted to rape her. But I think that he wanted to be someone who might have. And at the same time he hates those "someone".

That's part of his conflict, actually. He tries to appear (and to be) a fierce, brutal, cruel man. A butcher, a killer. But he has no admiration for such men, in fact, he hates them. The reason he wishes to emulate them is simple - he sees them as invulnerable. They do not fall in love. They do not suffer. They do not care. But he wants other things aside from being free from pain, and those other things cannot be given to a killer and a butcher. He is torn. That is why he says he regrets that he couldn't defend Sansa and that he didn't rape her. Those two are not compatible, but then Sandor's wishes are not compatible.

[Woman of War]

I actually preferred Sandor's "Should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out" to Loras' "when the sun has set no candle can replace it"

Leaving quickly :leaving:

Ok I promised not to post here anymore and after I have read THAT I'll keep my promise. I can only hope that you were not serious about it, you indicated something like that.

But this is simply disgusting. You prefer someone who stopped himself at the last moment from committing a really cruel rape of a child to a rather romantic lovestory - this is far beyond my understanding.

I simply give up, these Sandor threads are utterly irrational and in no way justified by what is in the books.

[brashcandy]

'But one day i'll have a song from you, whether you will it or no' - I always took that as a veiled threat of rape.

On the other hand.

'He is drunker than I've ever seen him. He was sleeping in my bed. What does he want here?'

I always thought that was girlish innocence, but maybe I read it wrong.

I guess maybe it comes down to who you want the characters to be. In my mind it's an even more beautiful love story with Sandor acting as you'd expect a man like that to act in such a situation but can't go through with it and instead offers to shield her from the coming storm. I don't remember any passages where he specifically denies rape as a crime, although he doesn't list it in the 'knights are for killing' speech. I can't read those passages without feeling a vague sense of menace towards Sansa from Sandor, and what would he be menacing? Murder? Why?

Sandor is not gonna win any prizes for good behaviour on speech day, but seriously, he isn't a rapist, and I don't believe he ever considered raping her. In terms of the men who've all menaced or threatened Sansa in some way:

Sandor: a real crass jerk, but wants her to not fear him. He is upset when she does, because it confirms every rotten thing he already thinks about himself, and like it or not, he starts to want her to see him in a better light, even though he never admits it. Asking her for a song betrays his underlying desire for what she possesses - not her body, but her innocence.

LF - prefers to go about the sugar daddy route - make the girl indebted to you, make her feel special, and slowly with kisses and gifts, and little "daddy" time, she won't resist when you come to her bed. :stillsick:

Marillion - the real rapist - he's low life scum and would have raped Sansa that night if it hadn't been for Lothor Brune.

Tyrion - not a rapist, but stil inappropriately groped her knowing she had just been forced to marry him and was terrified. Sansa comes to pity him however, and that is the death of desire.

Ok I promised not to post here anymore and after I have read THAT I'll keep my promise. I can only hope that you were not serious about it, you indicated something like that.

But this is simply disgusting. You prefer someone who stopped himself at the last moment from committing a really cruel rape of a child to a rather romantic lovestory - this is far beyond my understanding.

I simply give up, these Sandor threads are utterly irrational and in no way justified by what is in the books.

Now do you girls see WHY I left quickly after I posted that.

Woman of war, I'm sorry if my sentiment upset you, but it's simply that I believe Sandor and Loras are coming from a very similar place here. Both are deeply upset and unhappy that they lost someone they loved, just that they have very different ways of expressing it. Just my opinion.