Although I hesitate to say "overrated," 2011 releases that aren't year's-best quality to me

[Xanrn]

You have to ask what the stupidest thing ever written in a Westeros story ever written...

...that happens at the end of Jon's ever so slightly curved line pretending to be an arc is?

Yeah not sure I said "end of", but the fact you can't guess astounds me.

Gee maybe it was the fact that after waiting nearly a decade for Jon chapters, he does barely anything the entire fucking book then for some reason Martin decides to up the suck and resorts to one of the stupidest bits of overused cliche crap writing tools in history.

Ooh Fade. To. Black. Death. Why the fuck did he decide to beat that old horse. Probably to appease the fucking TV Producers, "ooh look the perfect ending shot for Season 5, one of those pan out as Jon lies bleeding in the snow and fade to black."

I can't wait for the next Jon book.

He lives and spends the entire book in bed recuperating and probably being told he needs to stay in bed, ignoring that, getting up and collapsing and then getting carried back to bed with a good "I told you so, Lord Snow"

Or Mel casts her Rez spell and all get Jon gets is a repair bill and some XP debt. Then probably spends the rest of the book recuperating.

Because apparently Jon is doing the Perrin/Mat dance, lurching around in a circle looking for the lost Plot Advancement.

[Sci-2]

I have to admit I kinda agree with Xanrn. The cliffhangers I read in ADWD were annoying.

[Arthmail]

GRRM is the only living epic fantasy author. That's a fact.

Epic fantasy is dead.

It's turning out to be epic in length, not necessarily epic.

[Tehol]

xanrn...that was an entertaining post. :D

i read ADWD and understood somewhat why the book is like that but i didn't love it.

thnx larry, for the list. i love reading top 10 of things.

[Larry.]

Late this week I may post the books that did make the honorable mentions. It will be longer than several others' top fictions (I had a good reading year). I'm thinking 15-25 for that and 20-25 for the best.

[sparky]

Hmmm....I'm not really certain how someone who claims to be able to read a 400 page novel in under a minute can really weigh in on what's 'overrated'. Just sayin'.

Larry, I just want to apologize for the 'asshole of the month' post. You do this board proud more often than not, so my hat is off to you. Sorry, man...

[Larry.]

Ha! I took no offense, I assure you. I thought it was mostly tongue-in-cheek, to be honest :D

[Windmill]

It gives me perspective on how I've changed, which is the key part in all of this. I was beginning to dislike that sort of fantasy even back then and four years later, I have no taste for it. I would say realizing the changes that occur in one's tastes over time are key to people desiring/rejecting something.

A non-book example: In the 80s, I liked a bit of Motley Crue. Today, I wouldn't go out and buy their stuff at all because I know my tastes have changed. Same thing with this book. I realized, looking back, that it wasn't the sort of thing that I enjoy today. Simple as that.

I agree completely. At the same time it's rather sad to think about that. A series that extends over a span of years may end with me disliking it. Even the thought of disliking something I once held in such high regard is disconcerting. I can only hope authors like Patrick Rothfuss and George Martin work faster!

You have to ask what the stupidest thing ever written in a Westeros story ever written...

...that happens at the end of Jon's ever so slightly curved line pretending to be an arc is?

Yeah not sure I said "end of", but the fact you can't guess astounds me.

Gee maybe it was the fact that after waiting nearly a decade for Jon chapters, he does barely anything the entire fucking book then for some reason Martin decides to up the suck and resorts to one of the stupidest bits of overused cliche crap writing tools in history.

Ooh Fade. To. Black. Death. Why the fuck did he decide to beat that old horse. Probably to appease the fucking TV Producers, "ooh look the perfect ending shot for Season 5, one of those pan out as Jon lies bleeding in the snow and fade to black."

I can't wait for the next Jon book.

He lives and spends the entire book in bed recuperating and probably being told he needs to stay in bed, ignoring that, getting up and collapsing and then getting carried back to bed with a good "I told you so, Lord Snow"

Or Mel casts her Rez spell and all get Jon gets is a repair bill and some XP debt. Then probably spends the rest of the book recuperating.

Because apparently Jon is doing the Perrin/Mat dance, lurching around in a circle looking for the lost Plot Advancement.

Haha, that's hilarious. Though, to be honest, you can't act surprised that it happened.

Melisandre has been foreshadowing it at every chance she gets.

"Jon! Watch out! Shadows! SHADOWS."

"Jon? Wheres Ghost? You need Ghost, Jon."

"Knives and skulls and death, Jon! I've seen it in my-" "SHUT UP YOU SPASTIC ******. I'd get stabbed sooner than listen to you another minute."

I couldn't get through ADWD or WMF - skipped around in both.

Rothfuss is a great writer of engaging prose and his characters can be sorta interesting...but the sex in this book was downright silly. Part of me can't wait for the conclusion just to see him take on a fresh story, perhaps in the same world but with Kvothe on the sidelines.

ADWD just seemed to meander. Reek seemed a bit over the top though I liked his chapters.

Night Circus was a bit overrated but I think is largely worthy of its hype in that it refreshed fantasy in a strangely classic way I haven't see since Gaiman.

I quite enjoyed both of them, especially WMF.

I'm not sure what to think about the sex scenes. It's almost that if Rothfuss just went all out, rather than sort of blunting in an attempt to keep it in a larger age spectrum, it could have been portrayed better. I mean look at Martin. Very little detail is spared and, because of that, it feels genuine and, at times, even endearing. Rothfuss' PG-13 portrayal I think leaves some room for eye rolling. Though, I don't think the book is worse for it, necessarily. I mean, Kvothe is telling a story of his life-- it would be rather awkward for the Chronicler and Bast if he began listing the workings of female anatomy.

[cseresz.reborn]

It's turning out to be epic in length, not necessarily epic.

What I mean: GRRM was the last big thing in epic fantasy. (Of course I know that there are many critics who don't consider ASOIAF as epic fantasy.)

The situation is very similar to Scifi which is also a dead genre. Everybody always says to me: "You are wrong, Scifi is not dead." Really? If you have read Asimov, Lem, Bradbury, Clark, Dick then you know the truth: you have read EVERYTHING.

Back to e. fantasy: who cares about "the new generation" in real life? Almost nobody. Dead forums, no TBs. There are no conversation about BS, Lynch, Abercrombie, Rothfuss, Ruckley etc. in real life. They got 2-3 sentences: "Yes, the book was fun.", "You will enjoy this." etc. Then: "Let's talk about Tolkien or Jordan or Martin!" (or sometimes Salvatore or Erikson)

(real life = friends, fanzines, fantasy camps, conventions, fantasy stores etc.)

[Seli]

What I mean: GRRM was the last big thing in epic fantasy. (Of course I know that there are many critics who don't consider ASOIAF as epic fantasy.)

The situation is very similar to Scifi which is also a dead genre. Everybody always says to me: "You are wrong, Scifi is not dead." Really? If you have read Asimov, Lem, Bradbury, Clark, Dick then you know the truth: you have read EVERYTHING.

Back to e. fantasy: who cares about "the new generation" in real life? Almost nobody. Dead forums, no TBs. There are no conversation about BS, Lynch, Abercrombie, Rothfuss, Ruckley etc. in real life. They got 2-3 sentences: "Yes, the book was fun.", "You will enjoy this." etc. Then: "Let's talk about Tolkien or Jordan or Martin!" (or sometimes Salvatore or Erikson)

(real life = friends, fanzines, fantasy camps, conventions, fantasy stores etc.)

Fanzines, fantasy camps and conventions as real life? There seems to be a big generation/culture gap here.

[Davieboy]

Loved ADWD, loved The Heroes, and I also particularly loved A.D. Miller's Snowdrops "(how this tepid suckfest of a novel made it on the Booker Prize shortlist still baffles me)". How it didn't win baffles and annoys me, it was tautly plotted and superbly written.

Also really enjoyed "The Sisters Brothers" by Patrick DeWitt from the Booker list and 11-22-63 by Stephen King. These were my 5 books of the year, plus I finaaly got round to reading most of Joe R. Lansdale's back-catalogue. .

[Sci-2]

It's almost that if Rothfuss just went all out, rather than sort of blunting in an attempt to keep it in a larger age spectrum, it could have been portrayed better. I mean look at Martin. Very little detail is spared and, because of that, it feels genuine and, at times, even endearing. Rothfuss' PG-13 portrayal I think leaves some room for eye rolling.

I don't think descriptions of Kvothe licking clits and thrusting...or whatever it is he does would be better. It isn't the sex, it is this weird extra-dimensional journey where Kvothe pretty much gets to become a great lover at fifteen. It just read like total wish fulfillment, plus it actually makes the character less interesting.

Also, how attractive is this guy that grown women - experienced women - want to have sex with him when he's a teenager?

ETA: The idea the Felurian is the most beautiful woman is also childishly inane. Going out with my friends I can tell you that "hottest girl at the bar" varies widely even in a tight group.

If you have read Asimov, Lem, Bradbury, Clark, Dick then you know the truth: you have read EVERYTHING.

I think what we're seeing is the genre widening itself beyond the classic tropes and conventions. As for fantasy, Night Circus alone proves it isn't dead.

[Grack21]

SciFi is dead? Shit, someone tell Gene Wolfe.

[SkynJay]

I loved WMF, when it was actually telling the story. But the entire scene with the Felurian was silly, as was anything but the training with the Adam(spelling?).

[Grack21]

I loved WMF, when it was actually telling the story. But the entire scene with the Felurian was silly, as was anything but the training with the Adam(spelling?).

Yeah, but the part with the tree(no spoilers, if you read it you KNOW) really freaked me out. The Jedi training did get a little tiresome.

[Werthead]

Back to e. fantasy: who cares about "the new generation" in real life? Almost nobody. Dead forums, no TBs. There are no conversation about BS, Lynch, Abercrombie, Rothfuss, Ruckley etc. in real life. They got 2-3 sentences: "Yes, the book was fun.", "You will enjoy this." etc. Then: "Let's talk about Tolkien or Jordan or Martin!" (or sometimes Salvatore or Erikson)

(real life = friends, fanzines, fantasy camps, conventions, fantasy stores etc.)

This post is plain wrong. There are frequent, lengthy discussions on most of those authors on numerous message boards (including, not least, here). It's certainly been impossible to talk about Jordan in the last 3-4 years without also talking about Sanderson, and Rothfuss is at a much, much higher level of popularity and acclaim after two books than Martin was after three of his fantasy series.

The situation is very similar to Scifi which is also a dead genre. Everybody always says to me: "You are wrong, Scifi is not dead." Really? If you have read Asimov, Lem, Bradbury, Clark, Dick then you know the truth: you have read EVERYTHING.

Not true, because you then still wouldn't have read Bester, Heinlein, Aldiss, Wells or Wolfe, and so would have read nothing (or as good as) ;)

[Datepalm]

Asimov, Lem, Bradbury, Clark, Dick

Bester, Heinlein, Aldiss, Wells or Wolfe

And as science fiction writers, all of those guys were like so totally disappointed when they found out the future only actually ran up to about 1975, and so never wrote again.

And that, children, is why theres is no more SF, here in the land that time forgot.

[Windmill]

I loved WMF, when it was actually telling the story. But the entire scene with the Felurian was silly, as was anything but the training with the Adam(spelling?).

I loved WMF, when it was actually telling the story. But the entire scene with the Felurian was silly, as was anything but the training with the Adam(spelling?).

I don't know, I like that he found the Felurian. I enjoyed how the world was described. At first I was skeptical, but I'm glad he spent time away from the University. I enjoyed the Adem and their culture, and the mercenaries he travels with.

I also liked the pseudo-troupe he meets and murders them brutally.

All these events are essential, I think, in defining Kvothe.

That's what I really like about the book. Rothfuss made a character that makes any situation he's in interesting-- at least for me.

Yeah, but the part with the tree(no spoilers, if you read it you KNOW) really freaked me out. The Jedi training did get a little tiresome.

A lot of people I've talked to have said the same thing: the tree was really scary. For whatever reason, when I imagined the tree, I somehow imagined it to sound like... crap I can't remember the name of the actor. He has a sort of raspy, feminine voice. Sounds something like Marge Simpson. Needless to say, that sort of ruined any chance I would have had to be afraid of it, haha.

[Werthead]

And as science fiction writers, all of those guys were like so totally disappointed when they found out the future only actually ran up to about 1975, and so never wrote again.

Since at least two of those writers wrote their best work after that, I think it's truer to say about 1985 ;)

[Datepalm]

Since at least two of those writers wrote their best work after that, I think it's truer to say about 1985 ;)

And there was much rejoicing as a ten year reprieve was granted. We can now ignore cyberpunk while we also ignore the new wave!