A crazy theory on Tyrion

[kissdbyfire]

Kissdbyfire:

Heterozygous parents can produce children of either colour, but a blonde person must be homozygous recessive, and there is no way blonde Lord Tywin and blonde lady Joanna could produce a child with black hair. - Unless Joanna was not blonde; don't remember if her hair colour was ever mentioned but since it has been frequently pointed out that all Lannisters display various shades of blonde, I assume that she was in this a typical Lannister.

edit: -ah, I see we're at a misconception here. Good night :-)

Sorry, but no. Genetics and hair colour is much more complicated than that wiki article makes it sound.

[Evamitchelle]

Kissdbyfire:

Heterozygous parents can produce children of either colour, but a blonde person must be homozygous recessive, and there is no way blonde Lord Tywin and blonde lady Joanna could produce a child with black hair. - Unless Joanna was not blonde; don't remember if her hair colour was ever mentioned but since it has been frequently pointed out that all Lannisters display various shades of blonde, I assume that she was in this a typical Lannister.

edit: -ah, I see we're at a misconception here. Good night :-)

And blonde-haired Joanna and silver-haired Aerys could produce a child with black hair ?

I don't think GRRM gives much attention to the proper workings of genetics, he'll use them as it suits the story. Most kids don't look like an exact replica of one parent and nothing like the other for example (like Robb, Sansa, Bran, Rickon looking exactly like Cat and Arya looking exactly like Ned).

[Ygrain]

And blonde-haired Joanna and silver-haired Aerys could produce a child with black hair ?

I don't think GRRM gives much attention to the proper workings of genetics, he'll use them as it suits the story. Most kids don't look like an exact replica of one parent and nothing like the other for example (like Robb, Sansa, Bran, Rickon looking exactly like Cat and Arya looking exactly like Ned).

No. Unless the Targaryens have some special genetic trait, like inherited chimerism, then not. - I so love busting my own theories, but basically, I said this even in the initial post.

Does Martin ever say that the Stark kids look _exactly_ like one of their parents? I believe not; they do have the distinct Stark or Tully looks - brown hair, long face vs. auburn hair, rounder face, which IMHO is nothing improbable. I look a lot like my mother did, and bear next to no resemblance to my father: whenever I came to see her at work, her colleagues instantly knew whose daughter I was. My son is apparently taking after me in face, as well, he looks exactly like me when I was his age.

Sorry, but no. Genetics and hair colour is much more complicated than that wiki article makes it sound.

I'm all ears, then... er, eyes. I find this all quite fascinating.

[Silmarien]

Actually now that I think about it, Robert is Aa, (assuming silver-blond is extreme lack of pigment). So he could have fathered 3 children with blond hair (odds are low, but it's possible). He had a Targ ancestor!

[Ygrain]

Robert is either Aa or AA, he needn't have inherited the Targ hair gene. Given that all his known bastard children are black-haired, him fathering three blonde children in a row is even less probable.

[Sidonie]

As for Shiera's different eye colours, I don't think the disorder establishes the colour as such but rather mismatches the already present genes. - Which brings me back to the original question: where the heck did the black colour in the lineage of blondes come from? - Were it at a later time, I'd say that Robert must have been the culprit, but with things as they are, he would have had to use a time machine :D

You know, I'm not a huge supporter of the Tyrion Targaryen theory, but I can see the logic in some of the arguments.

Maybe Tyrion's one black (AKA dark brown) eye genetically is the result of the Dornish blood in the Targ line. And then the green eyes, of course, would be from Joanna.

[Ygrain]

Sidonie:

Yes, but if Martin does follow the real-world genetics, the silver-haired Aerys can't have had the dominant gene - unless he was a chimera and his reproductive organs held a different set of genes than the rest. - Which makes this theory even crazier.

[Zmeischa]

I think it was mentioned that the way each house has their own hereditary looks has somethings to do with magic. If it is true, then this whole discussion is a bti pointless.

[Evamitchelle]

Does Martin ever say that the Stark kids look _exactly_ like one of their parents? I believe not; they do have the distinct Stark or Tully looks - brown hair, long face vs. auburn hair, rounder face, which IMHO is nothing improbable. I look a lot like my mother did, and bear next to no resemblance to my father: whenever I came to see her at work, her colleagues instantly knew whose daughter I was. My son is apparently taking after me in face, as well, he looks exactly like me when I was his age.

Since we don't have actual descriptions of their features we can't say whether they all look -exactly- like one parent, but most kids in Westeros only ever seem to take from one. The Targaryens for example, in the two recorded instances where they mixed with Dornish people : Baelor Breakspear was brown-haired, brown-eyed after his Dornish mother, Maekar I purple-eyed silver-haired after his Targ father, then Rhaenys had the typical Dornish look and Aegon the typical Targ one. You never get a brown-haired and purple-eyed Targ, they only ever take after one side of the family. Same for the Starks who either have the Tully colouring or the Stark one but never in between, or the Baratheon bastards who always have the Baratheon colouring, same for the Freys who either all look like Walder or like their respective mothers. The only relatively major character who seems to look like a mix of both parents is Alleras/Sarella who looks like the mix of Dornish and Summer Islander he/she is. That leads me to believe that GRRM doesn't care much about genetics beyond their plot-convenience, so I wouldn't rely on Tyrion's already weird genetics to discuss his parentage.

[LuisDantas]

Actually, in real life hair and eye color genetics aren't all that simple either.

For one thing, they are determined by the environment, particularly dietary circunstances, to some degree - there is such a thing as phenotypical mutation.

For another, contrary to popular expectations, not too many bodily factors are due to a single, specific, contained gene.

It stands to reason as well, since after all there are many more than only three hair or eye colors (which is all that can be established by a single gene with a pure, standard set of dominant and recessive values).

I'm very much an amateur on the subject, but this might be a good starting point.

http://www.kumc.edu/...t/eyecolor.html

Some specifics:

In humans three genes involved in eye color are known. They explain typical patterns of inheritance of brown, green, and blue eye colors. However, they don't explain everything. Grey eye color, Hazel eye color, and multiple shades of blue, brown, green, and grey are not explained. The molecular basis of these genes is not known. What proteins they produce and how these proteins produce eye color is not known. Eye color at birth is often blue, and later turns to a darker color. Why eye color can change over time is not known. An additional gene for green is also postulated, and there are reports of blue eyed parents producing brown eyed children (which the three known genes can't easily explain [mutations, modifier genes that supress brown, and additional brown genes are all potential explanations]).

Source: http://www.athro.com/evo/gen/inherit1.html

[Ygrain]

LuisDantas:

Wonderful! Love the eye colour calculator! :D

- The question is, then, whether Martin followed the simplified models, or the latest development, and if he did bother with the genetics as much as I think he did.

[LuisDantas]

I doubt he worried much about genetics, seeing how resistance to fire, skinchanging and prophetic dreams seem to be hereditary in Song... :)

[Jory]

Um, except he made the whole deal about Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella being not Robert's kids....so GRRM DID make his story about genetics, it was a major plot point.

And why give Tyrion one black eye, unless it meant something? Just a quirk?

Yeah, using weird fantasy magic genetics.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

LuisDantas:

Wonderful! Love the eye colour calculator! :D

- The question is, then, whether Martin followed the simplified models, or the latest development, and if he did bother with the genetics as much as I think he did.

I think Martin's use of genetics boils down to, "What I need to say to make the plot work the way I want it to." I highly, highly doubt he spent that much time looking over phenotype ratios and whatnot. This isn't a knock on him at all; it's a fantasy series and he can make those sorts of things work however he wants to. But trying to force-fit theories based on our notion of genetics is probably going to mean hitting a wall.

[Brandyjane]

Here's a crackpot theory: Tyrion is a human chimera and is actually the son of both Aerys and Tywin. Joanna became pregnant with fraternal twins by both Aerys and Tywin, the zygotes merged at an early stage, and Tyrion is the result.

However, I'd prefer that there be only one secret Targ, though, and Jon is my strong preference for that role. If a Lannister has to be a secret Targ, I'd way prefer it to be the twins. I think it would be interesting to have the two children Tywin was so proud of not actually be his own.

[Jory]

I think Martin's use of genetics boils down to, "What I need to say to make the plot work the way I want it to." I highly, highly doubt he spent that much time looking over phenotype ratios and whatnot. This isn't a knock on him at all; it's a fantasy series and he can make those sorts of things work however he wants to. But trying to force-fit theories based on our notion of genetics is probably going to mean hitting a wall.

This is the guy who has said that "the reason the seasons are fucked up is Magic". He's not writing science fiction, and this whole genetic analysis thing seriously makes me laugh because it's almost become self-parody of the obsessive ASOIAF fan.

[Jadiecat]

Here's a crackpot theory: Tyrion is a human chimera and is actually the son of both Aerys and Tywin. Joanna became pregnant with fraternal twins by both Aerys and Tywin, the zygotes merged at an early stage, and Tyrion is the result.

However, I'd prefer that there be only one secret Targ, though, and Jon is my strong preference for that role. If a Lannister has to be a secret Targ, I'd way prefer it to be the twins. I think it would be interesting to have the two children Tywin was so proud of not actually be his own.

If Joanna Lannister tended toward producing multiple viable eggs in a cycle, and if she was subject to the sexual attentions of Aerys Targaryen, then that raises the possibilities of heteropaternity in Cersei and Jaime, and chimerism in Tyrion (his disparate eye color a possible hint at mosaicism).

But, as you pointed out, it feels more satisfying if Tywin's only true child was Tyrion, the one he so desperately wanted to deny.

I keep wondering: Was Joanna raped by Aerys (if, in fact, he asserted his "lord's right" during the bedding and other times) or did she perhaps welcome his attentions? Or did she try to appease Aerys sexually (or get pregnant by him) out of her love for Rhaella, her long time companion? It's suggested that Aerys treated his sister-wife, Rhaella with some brutality, and he perhaps cared more for Joanna. We don't know how Joanna felt about her husband, Tywin, I don't think, do we?

I wonder what offspring related schemes (desperate or otherwise) Joanna, Rhaella, and maybe the Princess of Dorne set in motion back in the day.

[Emilydayne]

Yeah, this is sort of a mystery. We just don't know if Duncan the Small was a dwarf. But we do know he was called the "Prince of Dragonflies." This makes me think he was too small to be a "dragon," so people called him a dragonfly, lol.

Master Aemon knew Duncan the Small- he was his uncle- and i'm almost positive he talked about him once and never said anything about him being a little person. But that doesn't mean that he wasn't! I have heard crazier theories about Areys' bastards... my own for one- that Ashara and Darkstar may have been fathered by Areys.

[Emilydayne]

If Joanna Lannister tended toward producing multiple viable eggs in a cycle, and if she was subject to the sexual attentions of Aerys Targaryen, then that raises the possibilities of heteropaternity in Cersei and Jaime, and chimerism in Tyrion (his disparate eye color a possible hint at mosaicism).

But, as you pointed out, it feels more satisfying if Tywin's only true child was Tyrion, the one he so desperately wanted to deny.

I keep wondering: Was Joanna raped by Aerys (if, in fact, he asserted his "lord's right" during the bedding and other times) or did she perhaps welcome his attentions? Or did she try to appease Aerys sexually (or get pregnant by him) out of her love for Rhaella, her long time companion? It's suggested that Aerys treated his sister-wife, Rhaella with some brutality, and he perhaps cared more for Joanna. We don't know how Joanna felt about her husband, Tywin, I don't think, do we?

I wonder what offspring related schemes (desperate or otherwise) Joanna, Rhaella, and maybe the Princess of Dorne set in motion back in the day.

I am thinking back on when Lady Genna tells Jamies that "Tyrion is Tywins son" indicating that Jamie ins't, At the time I thought she just meant that Tyrion was more like Tywin and Jamie ever could be. Also, if Areys actually did overstep himself after Tywin and Joanna married then that would totally make him a contender for the sperm that made Cercei and Jamie. And Cerceis madness.

[Newstar]

After ADWD, I thought GRRM might make Tyrion a Targaryen bastard just to give him a get-out-of-kinslaying-curse-free card, and to decouple his fate from that of the (likely doomed) Lannisters. I can't see Tyrion remaining a Lannister and surviving the series. As a Targ bastard, he might have a shot, so GRRM might make him one for that reason.

Still, there seems to be as much evidence for Jaime and Cersei being Targ bastards as Tyrion: Aerys harassing Joanna at the bedding (years before Tyrion was born), Cersei's fascination with wildfire, incestuous tendencies, etc. etc. And Genna Lannister called Tyrion Tywin's "true son" enraged him, maybe because Jaime isn't his? I'm not really sure what Jaime and Cersei turning out to be Targ bastards would add to the plot, though, besides being a cool reveal and making both Jaime and Tyrion patricidal.

Moqorro's vision of dragons pointed to all the Targs crawling out of the woodwork, but the way he phrased his prophecy seemed to distinguish Tyrion from the dragons: "dragons old and new, bright and dark, etc. etc. And you." So I don't know.

Tyrion turning out to be a Targ bastard--and a likely product of rape, no less--would be another instance of "What you wanted of in the worst possible way" (since he dreamed of being a Targaryen prince as a child). He's still quite proud of his Lannister identity, even as he signs away the wealth of Casterly Rock.