Supernatural

[Chelly]

What else are they meant to do? Cas is crazy, so are they gonna take him on the road with them and leave him to drool in the backseat of the Car of the Week and listen to him babble about what Hallucifer is doing to him? No they leave him in a place where he can be watched and not be a danger to anyone or himself. This is hardly different from when Cas wasn't crazy, he was behind the scenes whenever he wasn't with the Winchesters. Except now he isn't in heaven, he's in the loony bin. He'll be back, he just needs time.

LotN

You're right, maybe I should have been more specific about what frustrated me more. Its that they chose that as a solution to fix Sam's problems, so now instead of crazySam, we got crazyCastiel. Its old, already. Honestly, I'm of the opinion in regards to Lucifer, that less is more. I like Lucifer as a villain and the actor playing him is wicked fun, but he's kind of being wasted. If they are looking to keep him around, imo, its a pretty lame way. If they are planning a big Lucifer comeback, it won't be as effective because he's been hanging around and snarking out all season in Sam's head. Honestly, they should be focusing on the main season villains, the Leviathans, instead of yet another excuse for angsty, angry, and depressed Sam and Dean. Its understandable with all the shit they went through, but I thought last season already showed this, but it continues on. Are the heroes ever going to get out of their funk of lies, deception, manipulation, bitterness, and infinite sadness? This has been going on for two seasons already and was done before in season 4 with the Sam/Ruby thing. Please, let them move on and start kicking Leviathan butt already! I'm all for the inner character conflict, but they did this already.

And the Shojo episode was great, and very funny.

Yes, I liked that episode, too. I think season 6 and 7 have some very good episodes, but I just feel the seasons overall hasn't matched the quality of seasons 1-5.

The Leviathans need some more time and episode appearances and to have their plans revealed to the audience. That way we'll know what it is they are up to, like what it was that Bobby saw in Dick Roman's office that horrified him, and thus they'll become more interesting because we can appreciate what they are trying to do. That and they can't die makes which them even cooler. Full stop. Even demons can die, Leviathans do not. It has been said in the show that the borax melting and decapitation does not kill them, merely (hopefully) permanently incapacitates them.

That's my problem. Its the pacing of the show that has gotten so slow. We've barely seen them, but the little we have seen of them, I just can't get all that invested in their storyline. We have like 3 or 4 episodes left and I just don't care about their plans on the same level I cared for Azazel, Lillith, Crowley, Zachariah, or Lucifer. Not that I was rooting for these bad guys, but at least there was a connection between them and the heroes. I just feel the Leviathans are so disconnected with everything else in the storyline.

I agree a lot with HyacinthGirl on why we feel seasons 6 and 7 have been disappointing, except that I still do watch and enjoy the show. I just don't automatically love every episode and storyline like I did earlier on. I will admit this, season 6 was better on a re-watch, but still not better than the previous ones. Maybe season 7 will be too. These show hiatus-es(plural of hiatus, anyone?) are killing me. Please, don't think I don't like the show, I still do, its just that I feel that show hasn't been as good as it should be. I do have high hopes for next season, though. :)

Oh, and Crowley needs to come back right now because he's my favorite character on the show who isn't Sam or Dean.

[HyacinthGirl]

I like Lucifer as a villain and the actor playing him is wicked fun, but he's kind of being wasted.

That's my problem. Its the pacing of the show that has gotten so slow. We've barely seen them, but the little we have seen of them, I just can't get all that invested in their storyline. We have like 3 or 4 episodes left and I just don't care about their plans on the same level I cared for Azazel, Lillith, Crowley, Zachariah, or Lucifer. Not that I was rooting for these bad guys, but at least there was a connection between them and the heroes. I just feel the Leviathans are so disconnected with everything else in the storyline.

:agree:

[Lord of the Night]

(spoilers for people who haven't seen all of the show yet)

I really admire your dedication to the show but I do not share your admiration for the last two seasons. I wish I could still enjoy the show but it's just so difficult now because it's lost its badass, fun-but-dark, rock'n'roll vibe. Now it's just Sam and Dean's lives going for bad to worse to what's-the-point awful. You might like that, but that's literally all the show is these days, and it used to be so much more - thrilling, funny, edgy.

There were a few good episodes but the more I look back on these seasons the more annoyed I am. The monsters, on the whole, have been crap - especially the Leviathans, IMO. I get that they've done a lot of damage to the Winchesters but they are just BORING and not nearly as dimensional as the other bad guys we've seen. And the lack of supporting characters is another blunder: Ackles and Padalecki are superb in their roles but even they have expressed complaints about the amount of work they have now that the cast has been reduced. Castiel's return was disappointing, Crowley is such a fantastic character but they don't use him enough, Chuck - where the hell is Chuck?, Balthazar should not have been killed, and Bobby's death still doesn't feel like it served much purpose - only made the boys lives more bleak and difficult. I'm not against killing of characters - i.e. when Jo and Ellen died, it narratively made sense, in a casualties-of-war kind of way. What I'm saying is that I got bored with the main characters because they were pretty much the only characters, and I got bored with their gruff conversations and pained looks into the middle distance.

And the "oh-no-something-ELSE-is-wrong-with-Sam!" stuff has been going on for way, way to long:

S1- Creepy visions (great)

S2 - back from the dead but different (good)

S3 - will do anything to save dean, including Ruby (good)

S4 - demon blood (great)

S5 - consents to the lucifer vessel situation (good)

S6 - no soul, then a soul, feels bad about no soul bender, etc (dull & pointless)

S7 - crazy (haven't we been here before?)

The thing I liked best about seasons 1-5 was the escalation: everything tied in with the next storyline, there was deep and heavy stuff going on as well as the ass kicking episodes. So when the angel storyline came in it just worked so well: they had built it up in a way that made it incredibly interesting. Very, very few shows, or even films, can pull of that kind of take on theology, but Supernatural made it original and their own. When I say I miss Kripke, I miss the way he crafted those seasons. The fact that he stepped down after season 5 says a lot to me, because even he hadn't had a plan he considered good enough for subsequent arcs.

I don't mean to be a troll, I probably shouldn't be lurking on threads for a show which I no longer enjoy, but because I used to LOVE this show, it's so difficult and frustrating for me to see the quality drop so dramatically. I used to think nothing would make me stop loving the show. I was wrong.

But, LotN, if you're still enjoying it, that's good.

I feel the same way about 1-5's story. The fact that they were connected together made them even better because the stories synced together. That is why I wish Supernatural could be renewed for multiple seasons like Burn Notice was, that way they can craft a story that lasts multiple seasons. But truthfully I think they already do it that way even if there is no guarantee the story will be continued. Season 7 has been repeatedly confirmed to end on a cliffhangar, and since there'll be a Season 8 we'll find out what happened. But I think that even if there was 0% chance of a season 8 the story would remain the same, just ending on an unresolved cliffhangar which would be nightmarish really. Nobody wants that for their favourite show.

I do think the Apocalypse story is better than Seasons 6 and 7 but I don't dislike the latter two. I really enjoy them and their story because I think its interesting in its own way. Sam's soullessness, Crowley and Cas trying to tap Purgatory's soul supply, Eve and her monsters, leading up to GodCas and the Leviathans. The story has its own merits and in some cases is more interesting than 1-5, just as 1-5 is more interesting than 6-7 in its own ways. I do think that soon it will get better for the Winchesters, hopefully, but I think the show is still plenty thrilling and funny thanks to the standalone episodes and the overarching plots.

I enjoyed Castiel's return because I felt it was played greatly. He atoned for his actions towards Sam and is still around, but isn't on hand to bail the Winchesters out like he has done before which makes the episodes more thrilling because there is no angel waiting to jump in and save the boys. I agree that we need more Crowley and that Balthazar's death was a mistake, I really liked that character and I miss him in the show. Bobby's death I think was interesting and was done to cut the boys off from their one permanent source of knowledge and backup. I do wish Bobby hadn't died but I think it upped the game for the season and Dean's desire to kill Dick Roman for it is very interesting, and I look forward to seeing what happens when GhostBobby! meets Roman.

Chuck is gone and better he is gone. I really liked his character but with him being God I think it is better that he isn't involved anymore. The apocalypse was his final chapter, now he has left to allow humanity and the angels and demons and everything else to write the next part of the story. His time is over now, it falls to His creations to make their own destinies and decide their own paths. If Chuck returned he could just solve everything instantly and that would be boring, it should be a struggle to stop the Leviathans and having God on your side really makes it too easy, and if its a struggle and God is still there you can just ask why is it so hard if God is on their side? Chuck was a great character but God is no longer necessary in Supernatural. Its all about Team Free Will now.

All that stuff you wrote--you're nuts!

I could say the same about what you wrote. I've seen plenty of dislike for Seasons 6 and 7, but I've never seen anyone say Season 5 was bad.

You're right, maybe I should have been more specific about what frustrated me more. Its that they chose that as a solution to fix Sam's problems, so now instead of crazySam, we got crazyCastiel. Its old, already. Honestly, I'm of the opinion in regards to Lucifer, that less is more. I like Lucifer as a villain and the actor playing him is wicked fun, but he's kind of being wasted. If they are looking to keep him around, imo, its a pretty lame way. If they are planning a big Lucifer comeback, it won't be as effective because he's been hanging around and snarking out all season in Sam's head. Honestly, they should be focusing on the main season villains, the Leviathans, instead of yet another excuse for angsty, angry, and depressed Sam and Dean. Its understandable with all the shit they went through, but I thought last season already showed this, but it continues on. Are the heroes ever going to get out of their funk of lies, deception, manipulation, bitterness, and infinite sadness? This has been going on for two seasons already and was done before in season 4 with the Sam/Ruby thing. Please, let them move on and start kicking Leviathan butt already! I'm all for the inner character conflict, but they did this already.

I am glad that Sam's problems are over, aside from the residual guilt of Cas having to go crazy to de-crazy Sam but anybody would feel that, and that for the first time since Season 2 he is 100% again. But I think now the Lucifer storyline is over, Cas will deal with this in his usual way, by being stoic and not talking about it, and the Leviathans will take centre stage soon. The coming episode is the last stand-alone of the season, then a Leviathan-based episode (starring Felicia Day!) followed by the final three-parter. I do agree that I as well wish the boys could get back to the easy banter they had in Season 2, I felt they achieved that partly in Season 6 "Like a Virgin" but Cas's betrayal and Sam's subsequent insanity pushed it back. Hopefully soon we can get back to that, but there'll always be drama and that is good because I wouldn't want them to constantly be at peace. The conflict between Sam and Dean in season 4 was fantastic. I'd like some peace between them, but not only peace.

Yes, I liked that episode, too. I think season 6 and 7 have some very good episodes, but I just feel the seasons overall hasn't matched the quality of seasons 1-5.

I suppose thats a matter of opinion, as it is for every other show in existance.

That's my problem. Its the pacing of the show that has gotten so slow. We've barely seen them, but the little we have seen of them, I just can't get all that invested in their storyline. We have like 3 or 4 episodes left and I just don't care about their plans on the same level I cared for Azazel, Lillith, Crowley, Zachariah, or Lucifer. Not that I was rooting for these bad guys, but at least there was a connection between them and the heroes. I just feel the Leviathans are so disconnected with everything else in the storyline.

I agree a lot with HyacinthGirl on why we feel seasons 6 and 7 have been disappointing, except that I still do watch and enjoy the show. I just don't automatically love every episode and storyline like I did earlier on. I will admit this, season 6 was better on a re-watch, but still not better than the previous ones. Maybe season 7 will be too. These show hiatus-es(plural of hiatus, anyone?) are killing me. Please, don't think I don't like the show, I still do, its just that I feel that show hasn't been as good as it should be. I do have high hopes for next season, though. :)

I do agree that the Leviathans should appear more, but I think the key problem with them is that we have no idea what they are doing. With every other villain, bar Azazel, it was clear from the outset. Lilith - Start the Apocalypse. Lucifer - Finish the Apocalypse. Crowley - Get more power. That is what I want from the Leviathans, to know what Dick Roman wants and how he is going to go about it. I do admit that they haven't been as connected to the episodes as other villains, but I think that will change soon especially with the Season 7 three-parter finale approaching.

And I can root for Crowley whenever he appears, sometimes even against the Winchesters. I like him that much. :D

Oh, and Crowley needs to come back right now because he's my favorite character on the show who isn't Sam or Dean.

I vehemently agree. I never tire of Crowley, especially his back and forth with Dean and Sam. I LOVED his impersonation of Bobby in Season 6 and his explanation of "best efforts"

LotN

[Chelly]

And I can root for Crowley whenever he appears, sometimes even against the Winchesters. I like him that much. :D

I vehemently agree. I never tire of Crowley, especially his back and forth with Dean and Sam. I LOVED his impersonation of Bobby in Season 6 and his explanation of "best efforts"

LotN

Yes! We need more Crowley! When are they giving new episodes? This week? Anyway this calls for a Crowley avatar for myself. :commie:

[Centrist Simon Steele]

You've never seen anyone say season 5 was bad? Have you only been listening to yourself? The majority of fans agree season 5, especially at the halfway mark, sucked. For the end of the world, the world sure seemed to be okay.

The show has kind of hit all the urban legend stuff, it needs to focus on its own stories now.

Season 8 should just do a Phantasm type story since this show borrowed heavily from the Phantasm premise. I mean a super powerful creepy old undertaker bringing the dead back to life one small town at a time (we could leave the dwarves out). Sam and Dean are so Mike and Reggie, it's almost plagiarism. The small town scope of Phantasm allowed for a tiny budget too, it was a "on the road" movie, especially part 2, and it would allow the brothers to get back into their ass kicking roles without having super stupid enemies like the Leviathans who...make each other eat themselves. Fucking retarded.

[Lord of the Night]

You've never seen anyone say season 5 was bad? Have you only been listening to yourself? The majority of fans agree season 5, especially at the halfway mark, sucked. For the end of the world, the world sure seemed to be okay.

:o

Episodes like My Bloody Valentine, Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid, Hammer of the Gods, Dark Side of the Moon, Two Minutes to Midnight and Swan Song were in the second half of season 5, and they without exception are brilliant. If the world started ending like Revelations claims it should then everybody in the world would realise, and rally to stop it. It had to be a more personal fight for Sam and Dean, something only they could handle. All the rain of fire stuff would have come during Lucy and Michael's big prize fight i'm sure.

The show has kind of hit all the urban legend stuff, it needs to focus on its own stories now.

Season 8 should just do a Phantasm type story since this show borrowed heavily from the Phantasm premise. I mean a super powerful creepy old undertaker bringing the dead back to life one small town at a time (we could leave the dwarves out). Sam and Dean are so Mike and Reggie, it's almost plagiarism. The small town scope of Phantasm allowed for a tiny budget too, it was a "on the road" movie, especially part 2, and it would allow the brothers to get back into their ass kicking roles without having super stupid enemies like the Leviathans who...make each other eat themselves. Fucking retarded.

Never even heard of that Phantasm movie until looking it up just now.

The brothers are back on the road again, they've been taking on hunts and plenty of standalone episodes. And there's still plenty of mythology for them to explore. The Faeries are one thing that could definitely provide lots of material for future episodes, and perhaps the Dragons could return for another episode, or the Alphas. I found the Leviathan's practice of "bibbing" to be creepy, the idea that eating themselves is the only way to permanently kill a Leviathan makes them much more dangerous in my opinion.

LotN

[Centrist Simon Steele]

:o

Episodes like My Bloody Valentine, Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid, Hammer of the Gods, Dark Side of the Moon, Two Minutes to Midnight and Swan Song were in the second half of season 5, and they without exception are brilliant. If the world started ending like Revelations claims it should then everybody in the world would realise, and rally to stop it. It had to be a more personal fight for Sam and Dean, something only they could handle. All the rain of fire stuff would have come during Lucy and Michael's big prize fight i'm sure.

Never even heard of that Phantasm movie until looking it up just now.

The brothers are back on the road again, they've been taking on hunts and plenty of standalone episodes. And there's still plenty of mythology for them to explore. The Faeries are one thing that could definitely provide lots of material for future episodes, and perhaps the Dragons could return for another episode, or the Alphas. I found the Leviathan's practice of "bibbing" to be creepy, the idea that eating themselves is the only way to permanently kill a Leviathan makes them much more dangerous in my opinion.

LotN

That's why no one has ever raised a stink about Supernatural taking the Phantasm II template and stealing it outright, because the kids of today haven't heard of Phantasm. I'd hazard a guess here, you're saying your lack of "hearing of" Phantasm somehow makes it an inferior product, but I'd venture a guess that a huge majority of the American population hasn't heard of Supernatural either--I mean it averages what, a million viewers? So what? That doesn't make Supernatural bad (well, until season 5). Unless of course you're going to defend your statement by saying "I was just saying I never heard of it, I wasn't saying it was bad", then my question is: why bring up what you've heard of or not? It sure seems as though your beliefs about the world are very self centric.

Ultimately P2 and Supernatural evolved differently, but the base storyline is the same. Two brothers are hunting a dark evil man who may have killed their family. They load up the trunk of their classic muscle car with every weapon you can imagine while hunting this boogeyman down. Hell, even the youngest brother in Phantasm had an unnatural link to the bogeyman they hunted, to the point where he was being controlled by it.

All those season 5 episodes you mentioned sucked too. When you have a pantheon of original god like figures, including Odin, and Lucifer just walks in and kills them all it certainly does not accomplish what the writers intended--which is to show how "bad ass super tough" Lucifer is. It just felt forced and weak. If Lucifer can kill a hotel full of gods without batting an eyelash, then why is it so hard for him to kill Dean when he needs to? Because Dean has plot armor.

And on top of that the story is personal in season 5, that's why they didn't show a failing world? Yeah that makes sense. It's so personal it's not even about the Winchesters fighting evil, it's about Lucifer and Michael, two characters we could give a rats ass about.

Actually looking back, season 5 on a whole sucked. Terrible, terrible stuff. But it's cool if you like it, I got some old Goodkind novels from when I was in the 8th grade that might interest you.

[Lord of the Night]

That's why no one has ever raised a stink about Supernatural taking the Phantasm II template and stealing it outright, because the kids of today haven't heard of Phantasm. I'd hazard a guess here, you're saying your lack of "hearing of" Phantasm somehow makes it an inferior product, but I'd venture a guess that a huge majority of the American population hasn't heard of Supernatural either--I mean it averages what, a million viewers? So what? That doesn't make Supernatural bad (well, until season 5). Unless of course you're going to defend your statement by saying "I was just saying I never heard of it, I wasn't saying it was bad", then my question is: why bring up what you've heard of or not? It sure seems as though your beliefs about the world are very self centric.

Ultimately P2 and Supernatural evolved differently, but the base storyline is the same. Two brothers are hunting a dark evil man who may have killed their family. They load up the trunk of their classic muscle car with every weapon you can imagine while hunting this boogeyman down. Hell, even the youngest brother in Phantasm had an unnatural link to the bogeyman they hunted, to the point where he was being controlled by it.

All those season 5 episodes you mentioned sucked too. When you have a pantheon of original god like figures, including Odin, and Lucifer just walks in and kills them all it certainly does not accomplish what the writers intended--which is to show how "bad ass super tough" Lucifer is. It just felt forced and weak. If Lucifer can kill a hotel full of gods without batting an eyelash, then why is it so hard for him to kill Dean when he needs to? Because Dean has plot armor.

And on top of that the story is personal in season 5, that's why they didn't show a failing world? Yeah that makes sense. It's so personal it's not even about the Winchesters fighting evil, it's about Lucifer and Michael, two characters we could give a rats ass about.

Actually looking back, season 5 on a whole sucked. Terrible, terrible stuff. But it's cool if you like it, I got some old Goodkind novels from when I was in the 8th grade that might interest you.

Absolutely not! Just because i'd never heard of it doesn't mean its bad or inferior. I would never say that and I don't appreciate the guessing about my intent. And Supernatural or any other show that doesn't average tens of millions of viewers, like the spew of reality tv crap that is slowly turning TV into the brain-melting box that old propaganda about televisions used to say it was, is in no way inferior because of it. Nearly every single show in my viewing collection, minus The Simpsons and one or two others, doesn't get extremely high ratings. Frankly ratings can go to hell, the Nielsen rating do not cover repeat viewings or DvD sales or conventions which is where Supernatural's fandom can really be seen.

Lucifer didn't kill Dean for the simplest of all reasons. He didn't want to. He wanted Dean to say yes to Michael and then they could have their prize fight. He never wanted to kill Dean except at the very end, and he prolonged that because he wanted to make Dean suffer for trying to interfere in the fight.

Frankly the only episode in Season 5 that I felt could have been done without is the Anti-Christ episode, because it introduced a character that was too powerful. His power should have been lesser, rather than annihilate the entire host of heaven it should have been he could kill angels if he really focused hard enough and trained his powers. But every other episode was a winner, and the ones I mentioned I feel are some of the very best the show ever did.

Wow. I have no real recourse here but to say that I think you are completely and utterly wrong. Your entitled to your opinion just as I am, and I think yours is wrong just as you think mine is wrong. With that I don't feel like continuing this particular debate since I don't think there's anything left to type. Oh there is actually. I like Goodkind, most of his work anyway. And I don't feel like discussing that either.

LotN

[Lord of the Night]

Yes! We need more Crowley! When are they giving new episodes? This week? Anyway this calls for a Crowley avatar for myself. :commie:

Our wishes have been answered.

http://www.tvovermind.com/supernatural/supernatural-spoilers-season-7-episode-22-there-will-be-blood

Crowley and another special guest, whom I never thought we'd see again, will be returning for the penultimate episode of the season, and perhaps the finale of the season as well.

LotN

[Chelly]

Our wishes have been answered.

http://www.tvovermin...e-will-be-blood

Crowley and another special guest, whom I never thought we'd see again, will be returning for the penultimate episode of the season, and perhaps the finale of the season as well.

LotN

Awesome! I'm very excited for this news.

[Chelly]

Last episode was pretty good as a stand alone. I do hope Bobby finally rests in peace by the end of the season because staying a ghost is not going to end well for him.

[awesome possum]

My wife and I just started Season 5, and this show has quickly jumped up to one of our favorites. Good stuff.

[Ismolapsi]

YAY SUPERNATURAL!!! has been my favorite tv-show since 2006. (omg is it that long already, seems like yesterday). Just wanted to say hi, i guess i will be hanging around here!! : D

[Chelly]

YAY SUPERNATURAL!!! has been my favorite tv-show since 2006. (omg is it that long already, seems like yesterday). Just wanted to say hi, i guess i will be hanging around here!! : D

Welcome! :) It's always nice meeting more Supernatural fans.

[Lord of the Night]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bG7ZvNjfZM&feature=related

Webclip for the next episode. Its hilarious, hahaha.

LotN

[Chelly]

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Webclip for the next episode. Its hilarious, hahaha.

LotN

Looks pretty funny. I'm glad they are bringing the main bad guys back into the mix.

[Chelly]

Anyone seen the last epi? I was amused and I didn't mind Charlie all that much. I kind of like her.

[Neal]

Anyone seen the last epi? I was amused and I didn't mind Charlie all that much. I kind of like her.

I quite enjoyed it but that could've mostly been the presence of Felicia Day :)

I still don't like the leviathans though.

[Lord of the Night]

The Leviathan plot will really advance now. The Clay Tablet will likely play a very large role in what is to come.

And the final scene with Dick Roman eating his subordinate was great. The whole episode was great of course but that scene really stood out for me. That and GhostBobby beating the crap out of Dick.

Also Sam reads Harry Potter, lol. And Dean flirting with a guy through a lesbian was hilarious. :D

LotN

[TrackerNeil]

I am a sucker for modern fantasy, so I borrowed the DVDs from a friend and gave it a spin. I was mildly entertained until they met the angel and the show took on standard Christian mythology, which is as familar as it is overdone.

I think, however, that there is a slightly misogynistic overtone to this series. I remember vividly one episode in which a demon in human guise (played by Jennifer Halley, who was Seelix on BSG), confronts Dean in a diner or some such place. He knows she dare not kill him, so he decides to taunt her with it. Part of that taunting involves slapping her repeatedly across the face, which brought my viewing to a screeching halt.

While I know that, in the context of the show, the slappee is not a human woman but a demon, when I disentangled myself from the fiction I saw Dean beating a woman. Perhaps that indicates a limitation on my part, but I could not help but wonder (with a shudder) if the writers had toyed with the idea of Dean deciding to really tick off the demon by raping her.

It's been said that a writer should not use narrative to be an asshole, and whoever wrote that scene was doing just that. There was nothing particularly interesting about Dean treating a demon that way, and I think the same narrative goal could have been accomplished by simply having Dean tease the creature. Also, what does it say about Dean that he's so willing, and even eager, to cuff a woman around, even knowing there's a demon inside there? The writers obviously want us, the viewers, to think Dean is a good guy, but after that performance...well, I wouldn't recommend my sister date him.