[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 2

[DurararaFTW]

Stannis will sacrifice Theon to Bran.

Not really getting the impression that Bran wants Theon dead from this.

[SpaceChampion]

So, Asha definitely wants to rescue Theon. It could conceivably be because she actually cares about him (in his reduced state, at least), but in any case she absolutely needs him to challenge the Kingsmoot (it's invalid since Theon wasn't present, is the argument).

I wonder if Asha will eventually conclude she must marry Theon to rule the Iron Islands with him as a figurehead. She doesn't have to do the incest thing, just have a son by someone like Botley and have Theon declare that son as his heir. A marriage in name only. I can't really see the ironmen going for this scheme, but i'm throwing this idea out there.

Regarding the Kingsmoot, just because it is invalid doesn't mean the ironmen will choose Theon as king/overlord. She could legitimately use him to declare it invalid, then get a new kingsmoot to choose anyone but Euron as king. The idea being by this time maybe the ironmen are having buyer's remorse regarding choosing Euron, and would gladly pick someone else, maybe Victarion. If Victarion happens to be married to Daenerys by then, then the ironmen would have some motivation to displace Euron. But given that Stannis is the one backing her, he'd want to find someone ameniable to his overlordship of all Westeros, and other than Theon i can't see who that would be.

The plus side for Stannis is the Victarion seems to be moving towards integrating R'hllor into his faith. So if Victarion isn't married to Daenerys, Stannis might accept him. Would Victarion accept Stannis?

[BrosBeforeSnows]

I'm bearing that in mind and I still think the letter's bogus and that Stannis isn't really dead. I also think it'd be a colossal waste of Theon's development to just sacrifice the guy to a tree within the first 100 pages. :P

Perhaps. But the same WAS said about Ned Stark when AGoT came out (i.e. it was a waste to build up a character, only to have him killed off).

If Bran's visions of human sacrifice directly relate to the First Men/CotF/White Walkers, it makes sense that he needs sacrifices in order to gain power. And, although Theon has a dramatic story (a true Shakespearean tragedy), it's not a central story, making his character expendable.

And, if GRRM wants to put a realistic/historical fiction-spin on it, there's no way a guy as damaged as Theon can survive. He'll commit suicide the first chance he gets, if he does somehow make it out alive. But, if he ends up becoming king of the Iron Islands, it will take an incredible suspension of disbelief.

Theon's finished, in other words.

Ramsay, on the other hand, provides all kinds of conflict in the story line. As an author, you'd have to be crazy to choose Stannis over him. Ramsay creates all kinds of fucked up scenarios that Stannis simply does not. So, IMO, Stannis's death has been foreshadowed (and Ramsay's letter basically confirms as much), so that's where I'm coming from.

I think people's views are clouded by their hatred for Ramsay. They want him to die so badly that they overlook the facts. I don't blame them, because Ramsay certainly is one of the biggest pieces of shit ever witnessed in storytelling, but he's a pro... and he's not to be fucked with. It's going to take a colossal effort to take him out, IMO, as Theon was alluding to.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

Not really getting the impression that Bran wants Theon dead from this.

I don't think Bran really wanted to eat Jojen either, but he did... Same thing's happening here.

Bran suggested taking Theon to the tree (via the raven). Asha suggested killing him there. But nonetheless, Bran will benefit from it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Perhaps. But the same WAS said about Ned Stark when AGoT came out (i.e. it was a waste to build up a character, only to have him killed off).

If Bran's visions of human sacrifice directly relate to the First Men/CotF/White Walkers, it makes sense that he needs sacrifices in order to gain power. And, although Theon has a dramatic story (a true Shakespearean tragedy), it's not a central story, making his character expendable.

And, if GRRM wants to put a realistic/historical fiction-spin on it, there's no way a guy as damaged as Theon can survive. He'll commit suicide the first chance he gets, if he does somehow make it out alive. But, if he ends up becoming king of the Iron Islands, it will take an incredible suspension of disbelief.

Theon's finished, in other words.

Ramsay, on the other hand, provides all kinds of conflict in the story line. As an author, you'd have to be crazy to choose Stannis over him. Ramsay creates all kinds of fucked up scenarios, that Stannis simply does not. So, IMO, Stannis's death has been foreshadowed (and Ramsay's letter basically confirms as much), so that's where I'm coming from.

I think people's views are clouded by their hatred for Ramsay. They want him to die so badly, that they overlook the facts. I don't blame them, because Ramsay certainly is one of the biggest pieces of shit ever witnessed in storytelling, but he's a pro... and he's not to be fucked with. It's going to take a colossal effort to take him out, IMO, as Theon was alluding to.

I'm not saying I think Theon will survive the entire thing — I don't know, really — but I just don't think it'll involve sacrificing him to a weirwood tree. I think Bran/Bloodraven have other motives in mind for getting Stannis and Theon to the tree other than for an execution.

Ned's inevitable ending was telegraphed a mile away. It was only a matter of how and when. Theon may have an equally obvious end coming, but not like this.

Theon had plenty of opportunity to commit suicide at Winterfell — stab himself with the dagger, go out into the snow, provoke a fight, etc. For all his talk about welcoming death, he hasn't done so yet. Why start now?

As for Ramsay's letter ... it's Grade A bullshit, except for the spearwives, and only then because we've actually seen some of them go down.

I don't think Bran really wanted to eat Jojen either, but he did... Same thing's happening here.

I'm not convinced at all that this actually happened. In any case, it's not confirmed.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

I'm not convinced at all that this actually happened. In any case, it's not confirmed.

No, not confirmed. But I'm totally convinced that it happened, so go figure.

As for Ned's death, yes, we all saw it coming from a mile away, but that's what I'm saying. I see the same thing with Theon. He's done for.

And, consider, Theon truly does have "king's blood" (which Stannis has been making a big shit about the entire time). Outside of the Iron Islands (and the King's Moot), Theon would be considered king by tradition. He has a much better claim to the Islands than Euron does. In Stannis's eyes, especially, he's a king, or if nothing else, has king's (Balon's) blood.

So, forget about Edric Storm. Theon will serve that purpose for Stannis.

[DurararaFTW]

I don't think Bran really wanted to eat Jojen either, but he did... Same thing's happening here.

We don't even remotely know that anymore then we know he wants to kill Theon (and, we do know that even if that paste was Jojen, he didn't know, as opposed to actively wishing Theon dead here), so I can't for the life of me understand why you'd bring that up as evidence for your argument.

[slayer420]

apple I dont think we are reading the same book. I think you need to change your name to sansa. There are no Prince Charmings coming to save the day. I bet you thought Quenton was going to jump on a dragon and ride off to find dany. GRRM loves to kill the good guys and make us like the bad guys. I bet before this story is over that he will try to make us fill sorry for ramsey and turn bran in to a bad guy. He has done it over and over to us. He builds stannis up way to much in that last chapter. It spells doom for him. Same for Theo he has went from good to bad back to good. I hear the fat lady singing for him.

[bemused]

I think Theon is a doomed charcter , but doomed to what , beyond what he's already suffered ? I don't think it will be an immediate sacrifice to the old gods . Stannis may take him in front of the tree, but I doubt he would execute him right there , if he does execute him. It would alienate his own men.

He may think it's a good idea to have him confess before the tree ,and pass judgement. Asha may think that in that scenario , with Northmen present, he'd be more likely to sentence Theon to a death other than burning.There has been no actual evidence that worshippers of the old gods have actually sacrificed in front of a tree for hundreds and hundreds of years. And there's been no evidence of the Jojen paste theory, either ...just the usual association between the appearance of blood and sap that has been made throughout the books . It may mean something..or nothing.

With Bran and BR in the mix , and Theon's willingness to talk to the old gods , things may turn out differently than any of them imagine.. I wonder if Stannis can be convinced that he can send those Ravens anywhere he wants ? Stannis resisted R'hllor at first..now he fire gazes himself..if he can hear Bran might he accept it ?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

GRRM loves to kill the good guys and make us like the bad guys.

But Stannis is an example of a mostly bad guy that GRRM is persuading people to like. He lets Mel burn people. He was involved in the sorcerous assassination of his own brother. Even if he can plead ignorance in Renly's death, he can't in Cortnay Penrose's. Stannis was getting ready to let his own nephew be roasted. He persecutes people on the basis of religion for political gain. All based on a legitimacy claim he can promote because he is willfully blind to the fact that Dany has the better claim.

(Note: I am not a Stannis fan. Couldn't tell, could you?)

Based on this Stannis has an excellent chance of survival.

[slayer420]

But Stannis is an example of a mostly bad guy that GRRM is persuading people to like.

Right you made my point for me. He is making us like stannis right before he kills him.

[ARYa_Nym]

GRRM said that sometimes bad people make good rulers and sometimes good people make bad rulers. Stannis can be the former.

[PatrickStormborn]

I do think Stannis is doomed, but not yet. He's worth much more story-wise than Ramsay, considering he's the only king who knows about the Others and is being proclaimed as Azor Ahai reborn.

[FanTasy]

So far we have seen that killing off a major character had a definite goal: giving room to someone other to take up his or hers role in the game.

I don't know if Stannis survives.

Let's assume he lives. That would be because he has some role to fulfill, his arc isn't finished yet. If Jon is dead or for some time out of the way Stannis has unfinished business in the North.

All evidence for that Stannis is dead so far is that annoying letter to Jon by Ramsay.

I tend to think of the most logical explanation first and that is that it probably was written by Ramsay. It was co-signed, all those people would have to cooperate in a sham or all their signs had to be forged.

Ramsay could be tricked in thinking Stannis was dead. We have Jon in ADWD saying the letter was not entirely false, there is some truth in it.

Let's assume Stannis is dead and his death is meant to give room to another character to wrap things up in the North.

Jon comes to mind, if not dead or deepfrozen for later use.

I wonder, what will Melisandre do if Stannis is lost to her?

She probably could make herself believe that Jon is the one that was shown to her. Her influence on Selyse could be big enough to let Queen Selyse see that it is in her and Shireen's interest to back Jon. He is the best card to wrap up things in the North.

If Jon agrees with this his would be the song of ice and fire: backed up by the ice of the North and by the fire of the red lot.

It's not a plot I would particularly like, though :frown5: but luckily I'm not writing the books :cool4:

[LuisDantas]

GRRM said that sometimes bad people make good rulers and sometimes good people make bad rulers. Stannis can be the former.

Could happen, I suppose. But not as he is right now. He is much too religious intolerant to have any real chance, for one.

[LuisDantas]

Theon's finished, in other words.

Ramsay, on the other hand, provides all kinds of conflict in the story line. As an author, you'd have to be crazy to choose Stannis over him. Ramsay creates all kinds of fucked up scenarios that Stannis simply does not. So, IMO, Stannis's death has been foreshadowed (and Ramsay's letter basically confirms as much), so that's where I'm coming from.

I think people's views are clouded by their hatred for Ramsay. They want him to die so badly that they overlook the facts. I don't blame them, because Ramsay certainly is one of the biggest pieces of shit ever witnessed in storytelling, but he's a pro... and he's not to be fucked with. It's going to take a colossal effort to take him out, IMO, as Theon was alluding to.

Far as storytelling potential goes, Ramsay has little to offer now. His potential was well used in ACOK and he is now far more expendable than either his father, Stannis or Theon.

Compared to his father, Ramsay is only a shadow. Slightly more cruel and perhaps more energetic than Roose Bolton, but not at all more dangerous or more plot-worthy.

Compared to Stannis, Ramsay is too well-explored already. Stannis, on the other hand, has a lot of laundry to do if he succeeds for a little while more. The conflicts that he causes have only just begun.

Compared to Theon, Ramsay is a dead end. He is not only beyond redemption (which arguably can also be said of Theon), but he is not an interesting character to follow now that we know just how rotten he is. He does not even want to be respectable, quite unlike Theon.

[Stannis the Great]

But Stannis is an example of a mostly bad guy that GRRM is persuading people to like. He lets Mel burn people. He was involved in the sorcerous assassination of his own brother. Even if he can plead ignorance in Renly's death, he can't in Cortnay Penrose's. Stannis was getting ready to let his own nephew be roasted. He persecutes people on the basis of religion for political gain. All based on a legitimacy claim he can promote because he is willfully blind to the fact that Dany has the better claim.

(Note: I am not a Stannis fan. Couldn't tell, could you?)

Based on this Stannis has an excellent chance of survival.

Technically Dany doesn't have the better claim. Anecdotal evidence so far suggests that the Iron Throne is inherited on a modified British system where females are excluded completely whilst still allowing for males to inherit through a female ancestor, I think it's called uterine primogeniture. If Dany were to have a son then he would be the rightful king of Westeros. However Robert was the legitimate king due to the right by conquest (whilst descending from the Targaryen line) and for all intents and purposes, Stannis is his heir.

Of course laws can be easily rewritten by those in power meaning that the current rules of succession are perhaps irrelevant. Nonetheless your point about Dany is incorrect.

I also think you're underestimating the influence of a magical being on Stannis. I doubt that there are many in Westeros who could resist a powerful witch and Stannis was unfortunate to be chosen by her. And it is clear that Stannis was extremely reluctant to sacrifice Edric Storm and was quite clearly glad that Davos spirited him away freeing him of the choice.

Although your point about religious persecution for political gain is interesting, I can name dozens of real life rulers - great and not - from the top of my head, that do exactly that.

• Edward IV and the Lollards.
  
• Henry VIII and the extreme Catholics and Protestants.
  
• Elizabeth I and Catholics.
  
• Mary I and Protestants.
  
• Oliver Cromwell and anyone who wasn't a Puritan.
  
• Charles V (or Charles I of Spain) and the Protestants.
  
• Philip II and the Protestants.
  
• Isabella and Ferdinand and the Protestants, the Jews and the Muslims.
  
• Half of the rulers in the Holy Roman Empire who changed religion for political power (IIRC some Catholic Cardinals converted which I find quite amusing).
  
• Francis I and the Protestants. Henry IV (the French one) converted to Catholicism in order to rule.
  
• Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden used the banner of Protestant brotherhood to increase the power of Sweden in the Baltic.
  
• Charles IX and the Huguenots (in the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre).
  
• And to ensure Godwin's Law. Hitler and the Jews.
  

There are quite a few names on there who are considered great rulers (and a few who are not). My point being that it is actually quite common.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

GRRM loves to kill the good guys and make us like the bad guys.

Right you made my point for me. He is making us like stannis right before he kills him.

So if he's good, GRRM kills him. If he's bad, GRRM makes us like him, then kills him. By your logic, every interesting character gets killed. (No, I didn't make your point for you.)

[4rcane]

I was disappointed by that line; it would indicate that Theon is not accepting responsibility for his actions. He did at least, in the past, acknowledge that he murdered the boys. Curiously, Theon does accept his imminent death; as punishment and relief.

Making him kill the Miller boys is like Theon making Ramsay chop off his fingers. Ramsay make Theon do things he don't want to

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Technically Dany doesn't have the better claim. Anecdotal evidence so far suggests that the Iron Throne is inherited on a modified British system where females are excluded completely whilst still allowing for males to inherit through a female ancestor, I think it's called uterine primogeniture.

I don't agree. Many people in Westeros considered Rhaenyra to be the proper heir instead of Aegon II. It was a resort to force that denied her the throne.

However Robert was the legitimate king due to the right by conquest

Robert was never legitimate. Viserys was the legitimate heir (Even by your own formula.) Conquest is resort to force, instead of rule by law.

I also think you're underestimating the influence of a magical being on Stannis. I doubt that there are many in Westeros who could resist a powerful witch and Stannis was unfortunate to be chosen by her.

There is no evidence Mel is magically tinkering with Stannis' free will. She tries to persuade him. He chooses his actions, and he is responsible for them.

Although your point about religious persecution for political gain is interesting, I can name dozens of real life rulers - great and not - from the top of my head, that do exactly that.

But from what we can tell, Westeros has a tradition of toleration, which Stannis is acting contrary to.

I'm still not a Stannis fan. Just for his responsibility in the death of Cortnay Penrose, Stannis should be forced to take the Black.