[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 2

[ghost the direwolf]

I love the part where Stannis is talking about Bittersteel and Viserys... and the fact that none of them came back to westeros as king. but we have may be aegon if he is really a blackfyre as some of you said landing and already attacking storm end his family place. How Ironic .

[Lady of Long Lake]

It's an overall good chapter, but I really don't like the seemingly out of character attitudes for Theon, Asha, and Stannis.

I feel like Theon made too big of a leap from "weeping mess" at the end of the last book to what is happening here where he's poking at the king with a stick. He's also still terrified of Ramsay in just the name, but that wasn't even the most enforced thing he came across in his indoctrination. Also there seemed to be no mention of his scars.

Asha suddenly having sympathy just feels like she went through some arc in between being captured and seeing Theon, which was not evident in ADWD at all. It was clever of her though to suggest that thing to Stannis at the end, and it's a better characterization but just not consistent.

Just try and compare Stannis' interactions with Jon, and then this interaction with Theon. The scenarios vary only to a small degree, really, but Stannis is just completely dismissive of Theon's very existence as well as going about business directly in front of him. By the way, where are they that Stannis both conducts business and hangs his prisoners in the same room? I just felt like he was being too malicious, which contrasts the quiet nature of him over the past in ADWD.

Still a good reintroduction, and I hope this book shall be done some time!

Hiya GoodGuy,

My thoughts are that we haven't had a chance to see Stannis BE a military commander in the field much through the books. All of our visits with him are through Jon or Davos and it's usually dialogues. By Theon hanging there, we get to see him in action the whole scene and it's eye opening!

Why would he hang him in his control room? I think Stannis is keeping Theon near him to keep him alive. If you put him anywhere else in the camp, he wouldn't last a night with Ned's men around him. I think he's got him hung in the air for a couple reasons maybe: it makes it harder for ppl to kill him instantly because he's 6 feet above ground and two, to show the Northerners that Theon is getting treated extra badly as a prisoner.

Theon had many moments of lucidity when he was at Winterfell. His chats with Lady Dustin, The Old Gods, Jeyne, the Hooded Man and the Ironborn at MC showed me that he still had a grasp on his sanity. He could still think and act like Theon when Ramsay wasn't around. He reverts to babbling whenever he says Ramsay's name:(

Although, I didn't understand the desperate urge that Theon felt when he saw Mors Umber's eye patch and thought of Euron. I didn't think Theon even knew his uncle at all? I thought Euron was long gone during the years Theon lived at home.

I agree with you about Asha though. She was talking weirdly to Stannis about the Old Gods and trees. It was bizarre.

[Candleguy]

In the midst of all that is happened to him, don't you think it's odd that Theon continues to accept the role of kinslayer (except to Asha surprisingly) to everyone, even when his sanity was slipping this information never came out to anyone IIRC.

The Stark boys living is as vital information as in in the 7 kingdoms and for a guy going from one torture to another, you'd think he'd try to bargain with it at some point but instead he actually baited Stannis with it in regards to executing him.

[Bastard of Boston]

While Asha's sentimentality towards Theon did seem a little sudden, I don't think it's so totally out of character. Back when she tried to convince Theon to abandon Winterfell, it appeared she was trying to look out for her brother...even if it was somewhat halfhearted. Beyond that, she also mentions their mother in her plea to Stannis. It does make sense that Asha would look out for Theon if only for her mother's sake. As much as Asha might loathe the state her mother is in, family ties are a complicated thing. It's also important to keep in mind that Asha has her own plans for Theon. Right now, he's her only hope of challenging Euron.

[cybroleach]

While Asha's sentimentality towards Theon did seem a little sudden, I don't think it's so totally out of character. Back when she tried to convince Theon to abandon Winterfell, it appeared she was trying to look out for her brother...even if it was somewhat halfhearted. Beyond that, she also mentions their mother in her plea to Stannis. It does make sense that Asha would look out for Theon if only for her mother's sake. As much as Asha might loathe the state her mother is in, family ties are a complicated thing. It's also important to keep in mind that Asha has her own plans for Theon. Right now, he's her only hope of challenging Euron.

I didn't really see it as so out of character either, she makes a halfhearted attempt to get him to leave winterfell & a halfhearted attempt to Stannis to spare him.

However after her reaction to new Theon I doubt she harbours any thoughts of using him against Euron. She thinks the Ironborn will never accept Massey who's weak, Theon is downright pitiful.

[Candleguy]

Do the Iron Born need to necessarily accept Theon as king, isn't his existence enough just to negate the last Kingsmoot and you can call for another?

[Ran]

I didn't find it out of character, either. She clearly had some concern for him, however grudging, and certainly she has a great deal of concern for her mother, who cares about Theon. But seeing the ruin that's been made of him, that would be utterly shocking, and she'd have to have a heart of stone to not feel pity for him.

I think Theon could recover a little bit, though -- with time and proper feeding, he might look not much uglier than Dagmer Cleftjaw, say, and Dagmer's a feared fighting man who commands a certain respect. ;)

[nategatorc]

Random thought, perhaps touched upon by this thread or the predecessor:

I remember one of Dany's visions of a

corpse on the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, smiling sadly

Now we have Theon hanging from a wall inside a tower. He has been watching everything and the chapter ends with him smiling.

Assuming that GRRM here is tying the vision with this scene, Theon is probably "dead" or will die. This can be a literal death, as in death by Stannis judgment, or a death in a figurative sense, as in the death of "Reek" or even death of "Theon" into someone else.

Oh and the ship in Dany's vision under this interpretation is Stannis! Stannis traveled to the North by...ship(!)...and he is the legitimate liege lord of the Storm Lords. Theon is in his power, hence the corpse is lashed to the prow of the ship.

[Pliskin]

I didn't really see it as so out of character either, she makes a halfhearted attempt to get him to leave winterfell & a halfhearted attempt to Stannis to spare him.

However after her reaction to new Theon I doubt she harbours any thoughts of using him against Euron. She thinks the Ironborn will never accept Massey who's weak, Theon is downright pitiful.

She only needs him to make the previous kingsmoot invalid, not to be king.

[Bright]

I think Theon could recover a little bit, though -- with time and proper feeding, he might look not much uglier than Dagmer Cleftjaw, say, and Dagmer's a feared fighting man who commands a certain respect. ;)

He probably won't get much chance for proper feeding in the wintertime. But I think that if he recovered psychologically, he could earn some respect from the Ironborn simply for not dying, but rising again harder and stronger.

[Northern Soul]

I loved the chapter. Really great surprise.

My thoughts post-reading are:

- *That* letter was probably written by Ramsay out of desperation following a non-decisive defeat outside Winterfell. There are too many suggestions of Stannis prevailing in the short-term for him to lose the immediate battle. He now has Arnolf Karstark's men, half the Umbers and Manderly will probably go over to him and pre or post turning on the Freys. The young Bolton won't stand a chance, especially with the nod to Stannis using 'natural defences' - probably drowning the Frey/Bolton knights on horseback beneath the lakes either side of the village.

- My theory is that Ramsay holes up behind Winterfell's walls and tries to bag some hostages and scatter Stannis' host by declaring him dead. If Stannis *were* dead and his army crushed, why write the letter? Ramsay could just march on the Wall and take what he wants.

- BUT it is possible that Stannis sends the letter himself. He doesn't have all the info yet, but in a few chapters he might well have it. Why write it? He wants Jon Snow in Winterfell. Provocation might work. Big argument against this theory is that the scheme is all a bit too Littlefinger for Stannis.

- Stannis is, as I've believed for some time, the best king for Westeros at the present time. He's dour, charmless, blunt and too idealistic, but he's also tough, seasoned, mature and just. He seeks the throne because he sees it as his duty, not for power and glory.

- Bran was controlling the ravens to some degree and was pretty desperate to get Theon in front of a Weirwood.

As a nerdy side-note, what loan do you think Stannis got from the Iron Bank? If he wants to buy 20k sellswords and ship them over across the narrow sea in winter how much is that going to set him back? This is presumably all on top of Robert's debts of 1 - 2 million dragons to the IB.

[mike_s_6]

Agreed. When I first remember reading about Dany having to defeat the blue-eyed king, I was happy to think of Dany defeating Stannis. Now, I do not want Dany to sit the throne and I think that Stannis would be a much better ruler.

I think Stannis will die though. Remember how the readers are made to love characters before they are offed? Stannis is too awesome in this chapter. I'll be sad if he goes.

[Zeromus]

She only needs him to make the previous kingsmoot invalid, not to be king.

Why would he want to help her, though?

[Ice Turtle]

Why would he want to help her, though?

Because he probably has a good reason to leave the North as soon as possible.

[littleone]

Because if Asha had an opportunity to explain to Theon that Balon died (or as she suspects, Balon was killed by Euron) then Theon knows he is the rightful heir to the Iron Islands. The Kingsmoot is invalid because Theon was alive and not a participant.

[Pliskin]

Why would he want to help her, though?

Why would he not ?

Pretty much everyone wants him dead.

He's the true heir to Balon. Euron would have killed him if he wasn't thought dead already.

The Northmen want him dead.

The Ironborn don't like him.

Asha is his only hope, the only one who could protect him.

[littleone]

Stannis has an opportunity to bring the Iron Islands into his control here as Asha has already sworn to serve him if he spared her men. Stannis could keep Theon as a well cared for hostage and send Asha back to the Islands with news of Theon's survival and declare Asha as Theon's proxy until Stannis is seated on the Iron Throne. One of the resources mined on the Islands is obsidian, and Stannis will need a lot of obsidian to aid the North and the Wall in defending against the Others and the wights.

To Pliskin's comment regarding the Ironborn not "liking" Theon I submit that "liking" has nothing to do with the laws of succession. To the ability of Theon to actually govern when he is currently so psychologically damaged I submit that Asha as Theon's proxy, sworn to Stannis, is a realistic remedy.

[tze]

Stannis has an opportunity to bring the Iron Islands into his control here as Asha has already sworn to serve him if he spared her men. Stannis could keep Theon as a well cared for hostage and send Asha back to the Islands with news of Theon's survival and declare Asha as Theon's proxy until Stannis is seated on the Iron Throne. One of the resources mined on the Islands is obsidian, and Stannis will need a lot of obsidian to aid the North and the Wall in defending against the Others and the wights.

To Pliskin's comment regarding the Ironborn not "liking" Theon I submit that "liking" has nothing to do with the laws of succession. To the ability of Theon to actually govern when he is currently so psychologically damaged I submit that Asha as Theon's proxy, sworn to Stannis, is a realistic remedy.

None of this jives with what we've seen of Iron Islands politics. (It's not even technically true for the mainland---look at how many people supported Renly, whom the laws of primogeniture knocked out of the succession regardless of Joffrey's legitimacy; look at how half the realm rose for Daemon Blackfyre; look at how scared Catelyn is of Jon's kids usurping her own grandchildren.) Being "liked" matters, else Stannis would probably already be sitting on the Iron Throne. Stannis simply assumes the Iron Islands will follow direct primogeniture because Stannis is all about the rule of law, but we know Stannis isn't what you'd call culturally aware, and we know from AFFC that, while it's true that bloodlines are important on the Islands (Houses descended from thralls, for example, enjoy lesser status), there's no way the Ironborn will follow a weakling, there's no way they'll follow someone they consider to be non-Ironborn (even Asha notes in ADWD that marrying her won't get a mainland husband any support at all among the Ironborn, and Theon isn't a sailor, isn't a ship captain, and got his ass publicly kicked by the Northmen), and we know they're perfectly willing to follow Balon's brother over his daughter---that was the whole point of the Kingsmoot. If the direct line of succession were that culturally relevant, the Kingsmoot would have been irrelevant on its face.

Asha couldn't get the Ironborn on her side the first time around, and dragging a crippled and half-insane Theon to Pyke to challenge the Kingsmoot will just get the both of them immediately drowned in a cask of salt water. The one legal precedent she can find is thousands of years old (and the Ironborn aren't exactly a culture of lawyers---waving the Reader's book in everyone's faces will just get Asha laughed at), it involved a prince who was off doing Ironborn-y things when the Kingsmoot was called (he wasn't getting skinned alive by a weak mainlander like Theon was), and it involved the overthrow of a King who had become very unpopular (unless something changes very, very quickly, Euron's got a lot of support from his plunder-happy people, certainly a lot more than someone like Theon or a defeated woman like Asha could ever hope to raise). Asha's plot to use Theon to overthrow Euron sounds to me a bit like Quentyn's plot to tame a dragon: it made sense to him, he genuinely believed it was a possibility, but when he actually tried to execute that plan, it became abundantly clear that this plan was doomed from the start.

[Carey Snow]

In the midst of all that is happened to him, don't you think it's odd that Theon continues to accept the role of kinslayer (except to Asha surprisingly) to everyone, even when his sanity was slipping this information never came out to anyone IIRC.

The Stark boys living is as vital information as in in the 7 kingdoms and for a guy going from one torture to another, you'd think he'd try to bargain with it at some point but instead he actually baited Stannis with it in regards to executing him.

Theon welcomes death at this point.

[Candleguy]

Invalidating the Kingsmoot would be the primary objective, Theon doesn't have to be king as long as it's not Euron that changes things dramatically.

Euron wasn't exactly liked either, and there wasn't really a huge clamor for him to wear the "crown" initially. Plus if the Iron Born weren't culturally aware they wouldn't have bothered with the Kingsmoot in the first place. It getting invalidated isn't a pipe dream.

Who knows what may happen if Euron's claim is invalidated and Asha is backed by Stannis who is now backed by the Iron Bank.

Theon welcomes death at this point.

At this point sure, but there was a lot of time and he's interacted with a number of people between killing the miller boys and him baiting Stannis with it in the tower.