Does Name Of The Wind get better?

[ecudan]

I don't post much but I have always been intrigued by the differing views on this book.

I read NOTW after I had finished ASOIAF, which was the first time I had really been into a fantasy series. So I was crazy amped to read more, I went out and got it all, Abercrombie, Bakker, Lynch, Hobb, and several others including Rothfuss. I was most excited about NOTW because it claimed to be grown up, different, with an all new take on things. (all the things they said ASOIAF was)

I was SOOO disappointed.

But let me back up, at the time I didn't realize just how much fantasy varied. I am more GRRM, Bakker, and Aberombie, I never should have gone near Rothfuss and Hobb.

To me the whole thing was generic and too clean. It was every fantasy cliche I could imagine even though I was newer to fantasy. When people talked about how its actually a deconstruction of the whole thing, I got that it was trying to do it, but I barely noticed it at all. And I was looking for it.

Some of the other major issues included the fact that characters were so flat and boring, he had two schoolyard chums, but I couldn't tell the difference between them and kept getting them confused.

The setting is poorly conveyed to the reader, are we deep dark ages? Is this just a blend of alot of time periods? It seemed really uneven.

In ASOIAF what you don't know about the world, the cultures, religions, etc. is all part of the dark haze that comes with being enveloped in a story but grows over time, and that didn't happen for me with this book. It was more like it was left out and too big and complicated to address. Which added to the generic feel of things.

I could go on, but I think it comes down to just personal preference. There seem to be perfectly smart and sharp people who LOVE this book, which amazes me to no end. So I just leave it at that. Trying to diagram if further is futile, neither side can even begin to understand the other it seems.

[alguien]

I was pretty disappointed with the first book. Its not bad, but I think it was incredibly overrated. There's still some fun stuff in there, though.

With the second book, I adjusted my expectations, checked it out of the library, and enjoyed it a bit more. I don't know if his writing improved, if I turned off my "stupid character and fantasy dialog cliches filter," or what, but I had a bit more fun.

Rothfuss has some good ideas. His weakness is believable characters. He created the ultimate Mary Sue in Kvothe, but the defense is that he's "trying to" and so for some reason, people give him a pass because its a "deconstruction." If so, I think its failed (so far) in its execution.

However, far worse than Kvothe, however is Denna. She is everything I loathe about the Manic Pixie Dream Girl cliche and then some.

Myself, I'm not under any delusion of a big denouement/hook/twist.

I think Rothfuss is just trying to tell a fantasy story. If he's been going for a 6th Sense plot twist now, my guess is that it wasn't his original intention and now he's written himself into a corner, BSG/Lost style, and has no idea how to bring it home.

ETA:

the Ctaeth was an excellent villain and Bast's reaction to learning about it was spot on

the dragon/dinosaur getting high in the first book was one of the poorest constructed things I've read in fantasy

and I actually kinda dug the Felurian

[thistlepong]

I'm trying to remember how I got into it. It was some combination of my wife and Mike Krahulik and two or three tries, eventually passing chapter four and never looking back. Well, that's a lie. I look back constantly.

I'm glad a few folks are picking it up again 'cause I think it's worth the time. I'd encourage folks not to consider it in terms of anti-this or deconstructing that, though. That's just one way of looking at it that ultimately isn't very satisfying, as SajP intimates. He's not deconstructing Mary Sue. He genuinely likes hyper-competent characters. He doesn't get a pass for it, per se; it's just that if you don't like them, you might find Kvothe (or Ender, or Gandalf) hard to swallow.

I like The Wise Man's Fear more. The Name of the Wind is starting to look a bit clunky by comparison. For whatever it's worth, I devoured ASoIaF with the same enthusiasm, but it certainly is on the other end of a few spectra.

[kingofashes]

I respect that everyone has an opinion but I really struggle to understand how anyone can dislike these books. Sure Kvothe can be a little prick at times and I do think alot of the hatred to these books are down to a dislike of Kvothe (he's judgemental, po-faced, irritating at times and smug) but thats a character in the book. The books themselves are beautifully written IMO. I didn't expect so many people to flat out hate this series since I feel it has so much to offer.

Ah well I just wanted to add another voice in favour of two books which are in the top 10(maybe top 5) novels I've read in the last five years.

[kingofashes]

The first few chapters seemed full of fantast cliches aswel so I did think I would hate it. After 50 or so pages I was in loving it though. Is it deconstructing fantasy troupes? I don't know or care but if it is then it's not the only series of the past decades which has.

I'd also like to point out that I pretty much hate Denna. I thought she treated Kvothe like crap. I then hated Kvothe for justifying it (oh she can act like an asshole because she is a delicate flower or a wild animal you may startle *rolls eyes*) and for putting up with it. So I totally get that criticism. All I can say is there are reasons to dislike every single book ever written but those reasons shouldn't stop you enjoying it... I hope that makes sense :-P

[Sci-2]

I didn't expect so many people to flat out hate this series since I feel it has so much to offer.

What does it have to offer?

[thistlepong]

What does it have to offer?

Are you just being feral, there?

[alguien]

I am more GRRM, Bakker, and Aberombie, I never should have gone near Rothfuss and Hobb.

One thing both Hobb and Rothfuss have in common are antagonists so bastardly that I'm dumbfounded anyone is on friendly terms with them. I'm speaking of Ambrose and Regal. The hatred there is too cliche, too overpowering. And in Ambrose's case, it's far too derivative of the rivalry between Jasper and Sparrowhawk in Wizard of Earthsea.

I prefer villians with a bit more grey to their character.

[Shryke]

I find Regal completely believable. He's that rich asshole people are friend with cause he's rich (or a prince in this case) and cause he's not an asshole to his friends.

Ambrose ... Ambrose is kind of dick and definitely goes a bit too far sometimes. But at the same time, he's got some poitns about Kvothe being a complete asshole right back to him.

[Sci-2]

Are you just being feral, there?

Heh, admittedly hankering for debate. I actually think these books are a bit of a conundrum - what's done well - prose, world building, drawing in the reader - is done very well while what's bad - Felurian, sex ninjas, development of side characters - is very bad.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

One thing both Hobb and Rothfuss have in common are antagonists so bastardly that I'm dumbfounded anyone is on friendly terms with them. I'm speaking of Ambrose and Regal. The hatred there is too cliche, too overpowering. And in Ambrose's case, it's far too derivative of the rivalry between Jasper and Sparrowhawk in Wizard of Earthsea.

I prefer villians with a bit more grey to their character.

One thing I'll give Rothfuss credit for are the hints that Quothe was just as much a dick as Ambrose was.

[thistlepong]

Heh, admittedly hankering for debate. I actually think these books are a bit of a conundrum - what's done well - prose, world building, drawing in the reader - is done very well while what's bad - Felurian, sex ninjas, development of side characters - is very bad.

I can engage that, knowing the terms. I don't think I could recommend anything without also noting how it's compromised.

I tried preparing a balance sheet for NotW (or the incomplete series) until I remembered there was no accounting for taste. We all like different pacing, plotting, and prose. Evidence suggests more of us like Agatha Christie, J. K. Rowling, Chairman Mao, and the Abrahamic prophets than anything else.

The Name of the Wind offers a more mature, though, as Ent says, not by much, take on the magic school/boy wizard/epic fantasy. If you dig on that - Potter, Grossman, whatever - then it offers another setting and take on it. It actually does offer interesting deployments of genre conventions without chuckling into its hand or being self-congratulatory. And it offers a fascinating amount of mystery. Again, if you’re into that sort of thing.

It offers a world of stories that sort of dance with one another making meaning out of a pattern. It shows. And for formalism nuts, it offers a fascinating, tightly structured, multifaceted artifact to toy with. That’s kind of an acquired taste, though.

I can totally understand why some folks might not like it, though. Even seemingly right thinking folks who read genre fiction in print by white guys. I do sort of feel like they ought to be able to appreciate it from a distance, I guess. It's my bullfighting.

[alguien]

I find Regal completely believable. He's that rich asshole people are friend with cause he's rich (or a prince in this case) and cause he's not an asshole to his friends.

I guess its more that I find it hard to believe that no one really see's through him. Despite being named King Shrewd, the king is kind of a moron. His 3rd son is so cartoonishly evil flipping from uber-subtle to uber-incompetent as the plot demands.

Ambrose ... Ambrose is kind of dick and definitely goes a bit too far sometimes. But at the same time, he's got some poitns about Kvothe being a complete asshole right back to him.

I think his rivalry just seems too all-consuming. I like that Leguin let Jasper' just fall by the wayside. People grow up and move on.

To clarify, for me, this issue is a minor criticism. Writing convincing antangonists is frickin' hard, so I'm willing to give Rothfuss a pass.

One thing I'll give Rothfuss credit for are the hints that Quothe was just as much a dick as Ambrose was.

Yeah, that's a good point. And a touch of realism as well.

[kingofashes]

What does it have to offer?

Well, thistlepong answerd better than I ever could but since you asked me I'll throw my 2cents in aswel.

One or two minor spoilers below.

TNotW and AWMF are great examples of how much information a writer should give the reader at any given time. Granted I'm talking about what works for me here and I know other people might disagree. There's no massive info dumps and I like the feeling of learning something about the world, then the characters, then the magic system, then the geography ect in well measured amounts. I think GRRM is another author who excells at this and I really appreciate it as a reader.

The magic system is another thing that stands out. I'll put it up there with Jordan, Ian Irvine or Steven Eriksons systems. In fact I'd probably put Routhfuss' system above them all. Realistic (well, as realistic as a bloddy MAGIC system can be anyway!)

I also like the way Routhfuss can turn what is normally a ten a penny scene in a fantasy book (such as when Kvothe gets attacked by two men when he's walking back to the uni) and really turns it into a life or death extremely tense chapter. I think he gives the little things the right amount of respect.

I also like that that Kvothe pays for everything he does. When he breaks into Ambroses room to get a ring it's not just a case of him falling and hurting himself then getting patched back together. He has to explain to the medic what he was up to and give her a reason why she shouldn't grass him up.

I'm not saying the books are perfect mind you and I could give you another list of faults(like someone said the secondary characters can be a little, hell even alot, flat) but those are some of the things I like that stand out after the beautful writting/great story.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The hatred there is too cliche, too overpowering. And in Ambrose's case, it's far too derivative of the rivalry between Jasper and Sparrowhawk in Wizard of Earthsea.

To me it's more derivative of Malfoy/Potter.

[polishgenius]

Tbf, the whole setup is quite strongly derivative of Wizard of Earthsea. Especially the first one, which at times almost read like a remake or an expansion.

[Jussi]

Tbf, the whole setup is quite strongly derivative of Wizard of Earthsea.

Agreed. I have never understood the comparisons to Harry Potter. Maybe these people haven't read Earthsea books.

[cseresz.reborn]

This thread is fantastic! :)

[thistlepong]

Tbf, the whole setup is quite strongly derivative of Wizard of Earthsea. Especially the first one, which at times almost read like a remake or an expansion.

Agreed. I have never understood the comparisons to Harry Potter. Maybe these people haven't read Earthsea books.

Okay. So, full disclosure is I haven't. I'll take care of that this week or next. Other folks who've commented about Earthsea don't make much of the parallel beyond naming magic and what's apparently a relatively brief episode at magic university. In that case, expanding that setup makes some sense.

On the other hand, having just read Harry Potter the similarities are so numerous you could write a pretty solid list of millenial genre conventions with just those two examples.

[Shryke]

Yeah, I don't get how this has any Earthsea parallels beyond the most basic "people go to wizard school" thing that is all over the place in fantasy literature.