From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa II

[brashcandy]

Thanks Caro! I'm actually fairly certain now that whilst Sandor might be Sansa's Aemon, it is Jaime Lannister that is meant to be the Dragonknight parallel in the book. Check out the wiki again on Aemon, and the parallels to him and Jaime are quite obvious.

Aemon Targaryen, called the Dragonknight, was the second son of King Viserys II Targaryen and a prominent member of the Kingsguard.

History

Aemon joined the Kingsguard at the age of seventeen.^[2] He served under four kings: Daeron the Young Dragon, Baelor the Blessed, his father Viserys II, and lastly his own brother, Aegon IV. He eventually was named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, a position he held until he died defending his elder brother and king, Aegon IV, from two brothers of House Toyne who sought to assassinate the king in retribution for the execution of their brother, Ser Terrence Toyne.^[3]

Prince Aemon has been referred to as the noblest knight who ever lived, and his skill with a sword is legendary throughout Westeros. He bore the Valyrian steel sword Dark Sister, previously wielded by Aegon the Conqueror's sister-wife Visenya.

Songs speak of his doomed love for his brother's queen, his own sister, Queen Naerys. He supposedly cried when Naerys married their brother.^[4] It is rumored that Prince Aemon was the father of King Daeron II Targaryen. He defended the honor of his sister, Queen Naerys, against the slanders of the "evil" Ser Morgil.^[5] He also won a tournament, disguised as a mystery knight, known only as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister , Naerys, the Queen of Love and Beauty in place of the king's mistress.

This is all quite interesting :) It might mean that GRRM is deliberately recreating the romantic heroes and legends of song around Sansa, and they may be poised to play a big role in her arc:

Florian: Dontos

Aemon the dragonknight: Jaime

Symeon Star Eyes: Brienne

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield: Sandor

[Starbird]

I think this is what Joff always wanted to have happen. Sexual torture/humiliation is a turn on for him, like it is for Ramsay Snow. In this chapter, him wanting Sansa to kiss the sword and then telling her she would taste his uncle's blood on it when he returned ... Joff really was a sick fuck with the mindset/intelligence of a 5 yr old. Truly the most dangerous.

This puts a chill down my spine because you're so right. I don't agree that Joff always wanted it to happen. He was king by then. If he wanted her stripped naked, all he had to do was order it. Joffrey's also only 13 at this point, and, though certainly dangerous, not sexually active in any way yet (he has her kiss his sword, not him) so, although sexual sadism was probably right around the corner for him, I don't think he was quite there yet. Also, just from a plot perspective, what could be worse for a 12 year old girl who feels awkward about her changing body, than being stripped in front of anyone, let alone a bunch of horrible men? It upped the ante, tension-wise, and even more so since Sandor was present.

Yes, David, it was Edmure and I don't think it was an attempt to denigrate Petyr but rather an observation that he came from the smallest island of the Fingers I believe, hence "Littlefinger". What's not in doubt however is how LF resents people thinking he was never good enough or worth enough, not for Cat, not even Lysa and later Sansa. So, whilst he may show no outward dislike for the nickname, everything he has done in his life has been about defying it.

It pains me to disagree with you again ( :grouphug: still!) but Edmure was around the same age as Cat, Petyr, etc., no? I don't think there's any way he, as a teenage boy, didn't mean that nickname as a reference to Petyr's, uh, stuff, knowing he had a thing for his sister, in addition to it being a slight on his home town, so to speak. Edmure probably thought it was comedy gold. I thought this was referenced in the books somewhere but I can't find it. Maybe I'm thinking of a show reference? Anyway, I agree with everythng else you said. :)

[Fire Eater]

Sandor and Serwyn of the Mirror Shield is a spot on comparison. From the wiki

According to song, he once saved Princess Daeryssa from Giants

The sigil of LF's house is the Titan of Braavos, or it could be a reference to UnGregor.

Another hero she might probably meet is the last hero: identity under debate(my opinion its Jon). If R+L=J is true then it would be quite ironic, given she wnated a prince, yet had one live under her own roof her whole life and referred to him as "my half-brother".

[brashcandy]

This puts a chill down my spine because you're so right. I don't agree that Joff always wanted it to happen. He was king by then. If he wanted her stripped naked, all he had to do was order it. Joffrey's also only 13 at this point, and, though certainly dangerous, not sexually active in any way yet (he has her kiss his sword, not him) so, although sexual sadism was probably right around the corner for him, I don't think he was quite there yet. Also, just from a plot perspective, what could be worse for a 12 year old girl who feels awkward about her changing body, than being stripped in front of anyone, let alone a bunch of horrible men? It upped the ante, tension-wise, and even more so since Sandor was present.

It pains me to disagree with you again ( :grouphug: still!) but Edmure was around the same age as Cat, Petyr, etc., no? I don't think there's any way he, as a teenage boy, didn't mean that nickname as a reference to Petyr's, uh, stuff, knowing he had a thing for his sister, in addition to it being a slight on his home town, so to speak. Edmure probably thought it was comedy gold. I thought this was referenced in the books somewhere but I can't find it. Maybe I'm thinking of a show reference? Anyway, I agree with everythng else you said. :)

Starbird, say it ain't so! :)

We don't actually disagree that much though. On the Joff issue, I do think he was already at the point of sexual sadism, even though he himself might have still been a virgin. There's the suggestion that he played some disturbing games with Tommen, then we have the cat and then Sansa.

As for Littlefinger's nickname, I don't mean to suggest that Edmure probably didn't realise the humorous connotations, but the origin of the name wasn't something derogatory.

[Caro99]

why yes, the dragonknight does seem to be a parallel to jaime. being as jaime is now on the good side and the dragonknight is recalled as a hero, how ironic for the story to begin with the vain, proud kinglsayer, only to have it end with jaime being recalled for his honorable deeds. he himself wants this, and apart from the obvious brother & sister had a doomed love relationship issue, we also see the similarity of the sword the dragonknight owned which had previously belonged to another- i know oathkeeper is brienne's now, but after Ice the blade was meant for jaime, so... and both blades are made of the rare valyrian steel. & he ruled under many diffrent kings and we even have him as being king daeron's possible sire, & jaime own son's become kings. i would never had thought of jaime, so thanks brasch. makes me wonder if we can't sort of figure out some of the ways the books will end by searching from clues from the knights and heroes who lived previously to the current characters..?

[Fire Eater]

Starbird, say it ain't so! :)

We don't actually disagree that much though. On the Joff issue, I do think he was already at the point of sexual sadism, even though he himself might have still been a virgin. There's the suggestion that he played some disturbing games with Tommen, then we have the cat and then Sansa.

I see where you're coming from, I've always wondered what Tommen was going to say to Jaime what Joffrey did make Tommen go away inside. It would take more than just a regular beating, it would have to be something more painful and traumatic like maybe Joffrey making Tommen watch as he killed and skinned the deer Tommen liked for a jerkin.

[Elba the Intoner]

I don't want to hijack this thread into a Jaime thing but I have been holding back some thoughts on Jaime for a while and now, with all this reference to Jaime being parallel to Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, who was a Targ, I am going to lay it out here. So, I had been thinking this thought ever since I finished AFFC, then ADWD made me think I wasn't so far off with this idea, and now after having just read The Hedge Knight, I have to say, I am fairly convinced that Jaime and Cersei are really the children of King Aerys and Johanna, and therefore secret Targs. I am sure there must have been threads on this somewhere here so I won't lay it all out but are all the hints to this just red herrings? How many secret targs could there be (given that I do believe Jon is one too, then there's the matter of Aegon). Anyway, when I read the Hedge Knight, and I think it's Daeron says to Dunc (so obviously a parallel to Brienne) "I dreamed of you", that sealed it for me. If there's a thread on this I'd love to see it as I am guessing this is not the place to discuss it but I can't be the only one who sees it I am sure.

[Fragile Bird]

Something that drives me crazy when I read various threads is people insisting "X" was going to happen because it's exactly like the story of Dunk and the Egg.......because the Dany saw it in the House of black and white.......because Jaime had that dream sleeping on the weirwood stump.......because blah blah blah.

Prophecies and dreams don't always come true. GRRM has been known to misdirect you. There is more than one interpretation to certain events. History doesn't always repeat itself.

PUHLEASE!!!

Edit: Bit of a rant there......I'm getting frustrated by reading how my favourites haven't a hope in hell because, you know, someone said 'oh, the snow will be gone at the end of winter' and that means Jon will be dead. (just a made-up example).

[Fragile Bird]

Regarding dear Joffrey's sexuality. That day Joffrey and Sansa went riding in AGOT and had their unfortunate meeting with Arya and Micah, Joffrey was plying Sansa with a heck of a lot of wine. Reminds me of some nasty stories I've read about what goes on in junior high these days. What 12 and 13 and 14 years olds can do to each other is unf*******gbelievable.

When I read, then re-read, then re-read that chapter, I got the distinct impression that sweet Joffrey had sex on his mind. I'm convinced he planned to get his betrothed drunk and then rape her. Not from any overt clues, but based on years of observation of how a certain class of predatory males act.

But his plans get interrupted by Arya and Micah, and he decides to show off in front of Sansa, having partaken in too much wine himself. As we know, he ends up getting humiliated. As Cersei later points out to Sansa, that humiliation had a very serious impact on him, and I bet may have even pushed him and some latent tendencies faster and further down the perverted road.

And Sansa suffers for it.

[brashcandy]

@Fragile Bird, I agree, and wasn't Joff feeding Sansa grapes at the tourney feast? According to the piece I posted on the symbolism of fruit in art:

Grapes Signify lewdness and lustful thoughts.

@Elba, there used to be some really active, and hotly contested threads on that same very topic. I've never believed it personally, but it is intriguing and Jaime as representing the dragonknight is a nice touch.

[adreamer]

Thank you.

I was thinking of the first time Sansa and Sandor encounter, when Sansa saw sir Ilyn and was very afraid of him and then someone put a hand on her shoulder she was thinking it's her dad (i guess she wished it was her dad, coz she wanted to be save), but it appeared to be Sandor, and latter on during the blackwater battle Sansa again was very much afraid of Payne and at the end she found Sandor in her room. And now there is Jaime apparently going to search for Sansa (or at least it looks like) and Ilyn Payne is around. So is this mean what i think it means, or I'm just dreaming......... that Sandor will reappear as well. Just some notion. I don't know.

[bgona]

That chilled insid me: Ser Ylian Payne near Sansa!!

About Joffrey a sadis, i believe that it is probably. Toommen was a easy prey. He is the most sensitive of all Cersei children.

[brashcandy]

Thank you.

I was thinking of the first time Sansa and Sandor encounter, when Sansa saw sir Ilyn and was very afraid of him and then someone put a hand on her shoulder she was thinking it's her dad (i guess she wished it was her dad, coz she wanted to be save), but it appeared to be Sandor, and latter on during the blackwater battle Sansa again was very much afraid of Payne and at the end she found Sandor in her room. And now there is Jaime apparently going to search for Sansa (or at least it looks like) and Ilyn Payne is around. So is this mean what i think it means, or I'm just dreaming......... that Sandor will reappear as well. Just some notion. I don't know.

Yeah, it seems like whenever Ilyn payne is around, Sandor is nearby to offer comfort, or she thinks of him in that light. So I'm thinking we might see Payne turn up later in her arc. Perhaps LF will have a need for a mute headsman in the Vale?

[Starbird]

I have no idea what this tenuous connection might signify but LF already has a mute in Marillion, if he's alive, as was posited either here or in the Sandor threads awhile ago. He's no Ser Ilyn, for sure, but it came to mind and gods know I can't have a thought on this series and not share it with the rest of you. :)

Sansa's irrational fear of Ser Ilyn is something else, though. She was afraid of Sandor at first but came to realize he's not that bad. She hasn't made that leap with Ser Ilyn. Granted, she can't speak to him but he seems to serve as a living reminder of how precarious her situation is, even before Ned's killed, etc., etc. I think his lack of emotion is what throws her. Also, that creep staring thing he did at her when they first met. I like adreamer's idea that Sandor will somehow show up in connection to Ser Ilyn/Jaime prowling around in the vicinity of the Vale. (Whatever gets him there!)

As for the darling prince's intentions to get Sansa drunk and rape her, I don't think so. He was 12 then, his father was alive, her father was alive, she was only 11, they barely knew each other . . . I think he was just trying to impress her. "You can do whatever you want when you're with me because I'm the prince and I say it's okay!" That kind of thing. IIRC, he doesn't start giving her more wine until she says that her father limits what they can have, and we know Joffrey doesn't like to be overruled. He also gets a little testy when Sansa is reluctant to leave Lady behind and asks if it's safe to ditch the Hound. Joffrey just wants her to be in awe of him (at this point). After all, they rode all over, explored some ruins, forced some peasants to give them lunch . . . basically all stuff Joff wanted to do. He wasn't trying to force her to kiss him and he didn't touch her inappropriately. I really can't see a legit rape threat. He's just an insecure, kind of obnoxious boy trying to make an impression on a pretty girl.

[brashcandy]

Yeah, I don't think he would have raped her at the picnic, or that he was even thinking that way, but I do believe the kid was capable back then of having some pretty disturbing thoughts, and when he becomes king, and achieves that power, suddenly he has the full space to vent them.

[brashcandy]

Opinion about Sansa in the Which characters you can't forgive thread:

Mostly just being chronically useless for five books straight. I don't mind characters being boring (Doran is rather dull), but I like them to at least be trying to proactively do something their fates in some meaningful way.

And this, my friends, is why we're having this re-read, to combat these kinds of mindless assumptions about Sansa's character.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

OK ladies I just got lost in the thread, I guest I can't watch Spartacus and read at the same time, is what's being said Sansa was raped without her knowledge or consent or some how she entered another female ho was raped?

Also if a word doesn't make sense from me see if it does when you add a "w" to it, my Asus EEE w key is touchy.

LOL yea......I have that issue as well! Somehow I keep imagining Spartacus characters invading Westeros or.....Meereen......

[1234567]

Well said BrashCandy.

As we have seen from the previous chapters, Sansa is actively pushing Ser Dontos to hurry up with escape plan and suggesting they try to get away because she is not followed as closely.

People seem to forget she is watched and doesn't have the same oppertunities Arya has to get away.

[bgona]

LOL yea......I have that issue as well! Somehow I keep imagining Spartacus characters invading Westeros or.....Meereen......

:laugh: Better Meereen

[bgona]

Opinion about Sansa in the Which characters you can't forgive thread:

And this, my friends, is why we're having this re-read, to combat these kinds of mindless assumptions about Sansa's character.

Should we care about what they think? Should all the characters being proactives? Are we all proactives? Are we all the same?

NO!!

It is silly believe that all the characters must be skilled warriors or death machines. I don´t like what others like (i.e.: Daenerys´ POV) but I don´t force to others to have my same oppinion. One really good thing about these books it is that they have so many POV, so many characters that if you want you can focus in the ones that caught your attention.

I am one of the ones that look always previously for Sansa POV, not boring at all. (It was a small deception that in ADWD it wasn´t any Sansa/Aleyne chapter).

In addition, they are forgeting that to rule a kingdon it is need not only warrior skills but also it is necesary to use diplomacy (where Sansa is really good at).

Anyway: Sansa and Arya are the opposite and, in addition, complementaries. What one has, it is messing to the other. Both together (as they will get to help Rickon rule the North, crackpot) they will be unstoppeable!