Plotholes and inconsistencies that bother you (the most)

[mormont]

Dany should either be immune to fire, not immune to fire, or have an explainable reason as to how she randomly becomes immune to fire other than "She just did."

Everything that has to do with magic has felt like deus ex machina. The birth of Danny's dragons? Out of nowhere. The murder of Renly? Bolt from the blue. Bran's shamanism? Same.

These things are features, not bugs. This is how magic works in ASOIAF: GRRM is on the record multiple times as saying that he believes once magic is explained, it loses its power.

[A wilding]

Everything that has to do with magic has felt like deus ex machina.

To be fair, GRRM has said in interviews that he intended the magic to be shocking, illogical and completely out of left field when it happened. So, unless he starts using it to get himself out of corners he has painted himself into, while we are free not to like it, it probably can't be counted as true deus ex machina.

[Samwell Waters]

This is a minor one, and may be faulty memory on my part, but Sam never seems to lose any weight, despite his travels North of the Wall, what is essentially a force march away from the Fist, generally being part of the Night's Watch and thus being subject to both rationing and Three-Finger Hobb's cooking, references to his inability to hunt/scavenge when traveling with Gilly, them having no food when Dareon is not buying them anything in Braavos, and finally being on a ship on which he can't keep food down because he throws up...despite all of that his chins keep wobbling, and everyone still calls him "fat".

[Yukle]

To be fair, GRRM has said in interviews that he intended the magic to be shocking, illogical and completely out of left field when it happened. So, unless he starts using it to get himself out of corners he has painted himself into, while we are free not to like it, it probably can't be counted as true deus ex machina.

This is a good way of putting it.

There's a saying that I forget the wording of, but it states that any advanced technology is magic to everyone who doesn't understand it. So magic wouldn't be magic once it is explained.

And it's probably just the midichlorians.

[conon394]

There's a saying that I forget the wording of, but it states that any advanced technology is magic to everyone who doesn't understand it. So magic wouldn't be magic once it is explained.

Aside - I believe that is Isaac Asimov and it always struck me as BS rubbish of a Modern person likening to think he is so much better than anyone who lived before....

[rmholt]

I thought the Jayne thing was pretty well explained. Robb had sex with her and he considered it dishonorable to not marry her. Rickon hasn't been in the the last two books at all.

It's explained. It just doesnt make sense for the character IMHO

[rmholt]

I have found one true mistake - when Dolorous Edd is cooking up eggs for Qhorin Halfhand (specifically there is to be no mulled wine and he only has one kettle, with eggs) he sprinkles nutmeg into the kettle. I found this amusing. They are hard cooked eggs in the shell, as Q is described as cracking one.

[Mother of Mountains]

Aside - I believe that is Isaac Asimov and it always struck me as BS rubbish of a Modern person likening to think he is so much better than anyone who lived before....

It was Arthur C. Clarke.

[A wilding]

Aside - I believe that is Isaac Asimov and it always struck me as BS rubbish of a Modern person likening to think he is so much better than anyone who lived before....

Please, it was Arthur C Clarke.

And it is a truism. Far from doing down people from less technological societies, it points out that they cannot reasonably be expected to grasp the principles of much higher technology. Much of the point of it is that 21st century Earth may well be the less technological society.

Edit: beaten to it.

[Dreadwolf]

There's a saying that I forget the wording of, but it states that any advanced technology is magic to everyone who doesn't understand it. So magic wouldn't be magic once it is explained.

That is true. With the noticeable exception of love. Not that it is easy to explain.

[Rhymes with Chic]

This is a minor one, and may be faulty memory on my part, but Sam never seems to lose any weight, despite his travels North of the Wall, what is essentially a force march away from the Fist, generally being part of the Night's Watch and thus being subject to both rationing and Three-Finger Hobb's cooking, references to his inability to hunt/scavenge when traveling with Gilly, them having no food when Dareon is not buying them anything in Braavos, and finally being on a ship on which he can't keep food down because he throws up...despite all of that his chins keep wobbling, and everyone still calls him "fat".

I've made note of this too. Sam did say he has to pull up his sword belt, so he must have lost a little, but you'd think he'd be a stick figure by now!

[conon394]

Please, it was Arthur C Clarke.

And it is a truism. Far from doing down people from less technological societies, it points out that they cannot reasonably be expected to grasp the principles of much higher technology. Much of the point of it is that 21st century Earth may well be the less technological society.

Edit: beaten to it.

Fair enough I just woke up... And unfortunately I first came to read this supposed truism in a collection of storied edited by Asimov so I always want to say it him, my bad - But I don't see the truism

It is still BS - you might not gasp how UFO works but if one landed in your back yard do think oh no Gods or I wonder what they use for propulsion? The fact is its likely there will always be two different kinds of people you might fool some that you are a god or have magic and some might just notice your lighter is a fancy bit of flint and steel.

The question is not really the advancement of technology but rather if a society has at least some tradition of empirical explanation - if so all to many people will want to look for the man behind the curtain

[SeanF]

It's (often) a fair point.

Take the glass candles for example, or the Palantirs in the Lord of the Rings, both of which are used to communicate across vast distances

They could be seen either as magical, or as very advanced forms of technology.

[rivergirl]

This isn't so much a plot hole as just something annoyingly flimsy... Why is it that some of the Lords Declarant recognise Sansa, but nobody at Winterfell realises Jeyne isn't Arya?

I can't think when the Lords Declarant ever would have seen Sansa before. Had Sansa ever been to the Vale? Had any of them been to Winterfell? I'm not sure on this one, but the point is that at the very least it would have been a long time since they'd seen her and she'd also dyed her hair.

But despite this, not a single Northman at Winterfell recognises that Arya isn't Arya. At least a few of them would have to have seen Arya at some stage before and apart from both being brunette, Arya and Jeyne hardly look anything alike. IMO, realistically someone had to have noticed that Arya had become pretty, and on closer inspection realised she literally looked nothing like she had before. I know Theon said something about how her face could have matured and she could've gotten taller, but her eyes can't change colour... hasn't anyone else noticed that? Jeyne's eyes are brown, whereas Ned's are grey and Cat's are blue. I know the Westerosi aren't exactly experts in genetics, but surely it would occur to someone that none of their children had brown eyes.

On top of that, Arya wasn't acting like Arya in the slightest. Again, it doesn't matter whether or not any of them were particularly close to her, she was "Arya Underfoot" and they all knew that she was a wild little wolf girl. Jeyne even got questioned by someone who had also been at Winterfell when the real Arya was there, had gone to a few feasts and apparently knew enough about the residents to know the names of the cooks and smiths... and she talked about how Sansa loved lemoncakes. Really sounds like something Arya would say, doesn't it?

This wouldn't bother me so much if nobody had noticed who Sansa was either, but come on... surely they wouldn't just see a pretty blue-eyed girl with the wrong coloured hair and think "no dye is fooling me, it's Sansa."

[TheButcherCrow]

Please, it was Arthur C Clarke.

And it is a truism. Far from doing down people from less technological societies, it points out that they cannot reasonably be expected to grasp the principles of much higher technology. Much of the point of it is that 21st century Earth may well be the less technological society.

Edit: beaten to it.

It's (often) a fair point.

Take the glass candles for example, or the Palantirs in the Lord of the Rings, both of which are used to communicate across vast distances

They could be seen either as magical, or as very advanced forms of technology.

Any talk of technology or scientific explanations for magic, is completely moot when discussing ASOIAF as GRRM has said repeatedly when confronted with scientific explanations for the seasons etc, that there are no real world explanations for the things that happen in Westeros. To quote him directly, "it's magic dude".

[Moerderwolf]

Fair enough I just woke up... And unfortunately I first came to read this supposed truism in a collection of storied edited by Asimov so I always want to say it him, my bad - But I don't see the truism

It is still BS - you might not gasp how UFO works but if one landed in your back yard do think oh no Gods or I wonder what they use for propulsion? The fact is its likely there will always be two different kinds of people you might fool some that you are a god or have magic and some might just notice your lighter is a fancy bit of flint and steel.

The question is not really the advancement of technology but rather if a society has at least some tradition of empirical explanation - if so all to many people will want to look for the man behind the curtain

No you are still misinterpretting it. The quote is "any SUFFICIENTLY advanced tech should be indistinguishable from magic". a UFO is not advanced enough for humans to not understand atleast partially. but lets say ur on a walk one night and suddenly a portal opens in front of you, a strange creature steps through, its is completely un clothed as far as u can tell and doesnt seem to be carrying any form of device or anything. It creates water out of thin air, turns it into gold, then blows up the moon by looking at it. would u honestly think, "oh it used advanced tech", or would u just think "what the fuck was that?"

The point of the quote is if something is advanced enough it will be beyond your comprehension, which is very simplistic(not urs specifically all of humanity). Thats the whole concept of lovecraftian lit and cthulhu. Cthulhu is so far beyond human understanding that just seeing him drives u insane. A UFO is not SUFFICIENTLY ADVANCED TECH.

[mormont]

This isn't so much a plot hole as just something annoyingly flimsy... Why is it that some of the Lords Declarant recognise Sansa, but nobody at Winterfell realises Jeyne isn't Arya?

Er, surely none of the Lords Declarant recognise Sansa?

She's worried in case Yohn Royce does, but that's specifically noted as being because he has met her. In the event, he doesn't recognise her.

As for Jeyne/Arya, it's clear a few of the lords have suspicions. But nobody has strong enough suspicions to openly call the Boltons, and by extension the Lannisters, liars.

[Harald Hard-Ruler]

Thank you. I thought I was the only one that found it extraodinarily odd. I mean the Ironborn may be similar to vikings (who on the extreamly rare occasion had women warriors), but the Ironborn come off as far more brutal and their views on women just dont chime with their acceptance and even support for people like Asha.

I know GRRM wants a 'tomboy' character and all the fans it brings, but from a contexual view point, I just dont see it.

A Question to ask an Ironborn:

Q "A son is admitted to the doctor to be operated on. The doctor refuses saying "I can't this is my son". Who is the doctor?" (Hint: It is not his father)

Ironborn: "Doctor?"

I said it before but I'll mention it again; African rebel groups active in recent years have had women in relatively high positions of command despite an extremely sexist, patriarchal and brutal society. Read "Bush Wives and Girl Soldiers" for an interesting viewpoint. Women aren't always just passive victims in such societies.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

These things are features, not bugs. This is how magic works in ASOIAF: GRRM is on the record multiple times as saying that he believes once magic is explained, it loses its power.

The point is that magic of convenience to help an author write events that otherwise make no sense is something that is inconsistent and annoying, albeit a minor annoyance. I know magic doesn't make sense, but in a magical world random, inexplicable magic can just feel like a cop out to write yourself out of a corner.

[Brent Nahmias]

This is a minor one, and may be faulty memory on my part, but Sam never seems to lose any weight, despite his travels North of the Wall, what is essentially a force march away from the Fist, generally being part of the Night's Watch and thus being subject to both rationing and Three-Finger Hobb's cooking, references to his inability to hunt/scavenge when traveling with Gilly, them having no food when Dareon is not buying them anything in Braavos, and finally being on a ship on which he can't keep food down because he throws up...despite all of that his chins keep wobbling, and everyone still calls him "fat".

The daughter of the captain of the cinnamon wind talking to sam before he goes to the citadel mentions him losing a little weight on the boat.