Plotholes and inconsistencies that bother you (the most)

[salt]

-Illyrio and Varys being so well-informed of Aegon and Dany movements despite the enormous distances, particularly Illyrio learning so fast that Dany was in Qarth, and later NOT learning that she was staying in Meereen.

-Sansa poisonous amethists...why to take the risk, when somebody else could carry the poison to the feast?.

-How quickly the Ironborn managed to rebuild their fleet.

I believe Mormont was still giving information to Illyrio in Qarth, but not by the time they were in Mereen. Qarth was a masive trading city, it would have been easy to get word to Pentos.

Wasn't Littlefinger connected to making the amethtysts happen? He needs Sansa to feel guilty and scared so she sees him as her savior, all part of brainwashing her.

After the first rebellion, you mean? Well that was 10 years before the books, and ships is all those mofos do.

[seeyouintee]

I find it hard to believe that you people are expecting Sansa Stark to make intelligent, mature, or wise decisions.

[Cap Ou Pas Cap]

That she was there at the exactly right time - yes, that's plot convenience. That Shae would be in his bed - no. He's a grown male, it's unrealistic to assume he would stay abstinent after his wife's death forever imo, and Shae...well, it was her job and her former "employer" was out of commission :D. That'S the short version of it.

You probably can treat it as a revelation about Tywin's personality. But it is so inconsistent with his character to take what his son left. For me. Very hard to believe. Ah, let it be.

[Winter's Lady]

You probably can treat it as a revelation about Tywin's personality. But it is so inconsistent with his character to take what his son left. For me. Very hard to believe. Ah, let it be.

Yeah, kinda strange to take his son's "leftovers", I agree. That he was seeing whores in general - no surprise to me. She was there, somehow...yeah, let's leave it at that. :cheers:

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Yeah, I don't get why this is so surprising. They ruled for 300 years and people naturally accepted their dominance. Over time, even with the death of the dragons, their rule became almost natural and normal, and it would have taken a real catalyst - such as the crazy king calling for the heads of Robert and Ned, to spur on a rebellion.

There is also the fact that a rebellion really needs a leader to get legs under it, much less succeed. In order to dethrone the reigning king, there must be someone (or something) that the rebels intend to replace him with. If there were factions of discontent under the Targs in the period between the dearh of the dragons and Robert's Rebellion (which I don't remember there being much mention of) then they lacked either the numbers, the catalyst, or the leader(s) to turn them into a rebellion. When Aerys finally goes sailing over the edge, there was something of a perfect storm for rebellion...enough numbers of people/houses who had had their fill of Aerys and were not satisfied with the idea of Rhaegar succeeding him, the various catalysts that brought the numbers together united in a common cause, and skilled/respected enough leaders that their followers believed they had a chance at succeeding.

As far as actual plotholes go, the most gaping one that really bothers me is that the series began with this huge idea of a threat to the entirety of the world in the Others, the Others were coming, winter was coming, etc etc ...and yet about five people in the five books since seem to be in on this terrific threat, the Others have done nothing more than kill off the people who happen to wander by, and absolutely no one except Melisandre is even remotely concerned about this huge looming apocalypse. Maybe this just seems like a plothole to me, but here is how I see it: you could easily have completely removed the entire concept of the Others (or The Great Other) from the books, and it would not have made one iota of difference to anything that has happened so far. You could have replaced the various Other attacks with being Wildlings or wargs, had Melisandre simply believe that Stannis is the Chosen One to unite the Seven Kingdoms and bring peace to the realm (instead of being necessary to combat this Other threat), and nothing else in the books would have needed to be changed to just take the Others out entirely. I tend to forget that they are even supposed to exist for large sections of my re-reads.

So when/if they ever do get around to emerging and actually become a threat, I am going to have a very hard time not feeling like I have suddenly been thrust into a George Romero movie against my will. EVERYONE and EVERYTHING that we have seen so far is going to have to be more or less thrust aside in order to introduce/deal with the Others when they finally enter stage left, and I do not like it when storylines suddenly and ridiculously do a 180 and go in a completely different direction.

It seems to me that there could have been a great deal more added along the way so far, to include the Others as part of the general storyline. Perhaps dead people suddenly start refusing to stay that way in other parts of the world. Perhaps you start to get some bizarre weather issues, such as a blizzard in Dorne. Maybe the Sparrows are aware of the Others, and part of the message they are trying to spread is for people to prepare for the coming apocalypse. I don't know, ANYTHING would have been preferable to me, besides the supposedly greatest threat in the story to also be its best kept secret. Maybe GRRM intends to use the lack of knowledge/warning in some manner, but it is just insanely unbelievable to me. The least little rumor about various characters becomes known far and wide across the continent within a short span of time, but absolutely no one has a clue that there is about to be an army of the undead marching down upon them and destroying the world, unless the true savior can be found, appropriately armed, and supported by the whole population. Whatever.

Frankly at this point I would be fine with it if the Others turn out to be a bizarre anomaly that suddenly goes away as mysteriously as it appeared, and the storylines all continue and finish without this great Battle of Good vs Evil ever taking place. We have spent five novels learning that nothing is black and white, everything and everyone is shades of gray, it is extremely hard to identify villains or heroes because so much depends on the situation/motivations/point of view, and that very little is actually as it seems ...and then at some point, Darth Vader is going to descend with his legions of unkillable Stormtroopers and sweep away every single thing that has been true in this universe up till now. I am just afraid it is going to turn into some "let's all join hands and sing kumbaya and put our many differences and inner strifes aside, for now we must become as one to defeat our common foe" cheesefest.

[Ice Turtle]

Why Illyrio and Varys spoke in Common Tongue in the tunnels under the Red Keep, wouldn't be some tongue of Essos more probable?

How it was that no one stolen and raped Dany while she was traveling only with Vyserys? She was pretty enough. Where did she even learned to read?

[Free Northman]

Xharo Xhoan Daxos begging Daeny to marry him just to get one of her baby dragons.

Instead, he should just have had her murdered by his hundreds of private guards while she was staying in his house, and kept the dragons for himself.

Why EVERYONE doesn't just take Dany's dragons from her before she's got the Unsullied is not really explained.

She didn't have the power to keep them, and we're told a single dragon will make its owner a king, so the realistic thing would have been for Dany to hide out in the Red Waste or on some isolated mountain until her dragons were big and powerful enough to defend her against all enemies.

The moment she arrived in Qarth, every merchant prince, noble and criminal gang boss should have been trying to kill her to take her dragons.

And there was nothing her pitiful khalasar and one knight could have done to stop them.

[Free Northman]

Xharo Xhoan Daxos begging Daeny to marry him just to get one of her baby dragons.

Instead, he should just have had her murdered by his hundreds of private guards while she was staying in his house, and kept the dragons for himself.

Why EVERYONE doesn't just take Dany's dragons from her before she's got the Unsullied is not really explained.

She didn't have the power to keep them, and we're told a single dragon will make its owner a king, so the realistic thing would have been for Dany to hide out in the Red Waste or on some isolated mountain until her dragons were big and powerful enough to defend her against all enemies.

The moment she arrived in Qarth, every merchant prince, noble and criminal gang boss should have been trying to kill her to take her dragons.

And there was nothing her pitiful khalasar and one knight could have done to stop them.

[Zar Lannister]

Gods Gods Gods....

NED'S GENETICS 101....

No. I refuse to accept it. I know this is how the writer intended it to be, but the way Ned concluded Joffrey / Myrcella and Tommen were Jaime's children was SOOOOOOO refutable,

God Cersei, you are amazing for having no shame to admit it to Ned, though.

[kneo]

8,000 Unsullied, the best infantry in the world, make a huge impact for Dany's campaign in Slaver's Bay during ASOS, yet they may as well not exist by the time of ADWD. Why didn't she attack the Yunkai'i? Why didn't a single commander take into account how the Unsullied could goddamn destroy any force sent against them if fought infantry vs infantry? Is the fact that they are deployed for a very ineffective city watch (Since they fight best rank on rank and not single fighting in the dark.) an actual plot hole or is it just a result from Dany's incompetence? The Yunkai'i couldn't have amassed that many soldiers at first though, and even taking her incompetence into account, she still has Barristan and other commanders to advise her.

I'm not sure that unsullied are the best infantry out there. They fought well against dothraki fighters and not against organized companies who are equipped and armored well. Besides she was lacking in cavalry.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Yunkai's forces were stronger than Dany's before the plague and also if she would have led her forces out of Merreen in a straight fight, she would risk ending up between two enemies.

[seeyouintee]

@ LadyoftheNorth72

Not so much a plothole as a loose end... a massive, gargantuan loose end. I see your point but I actually enjoy the others as something of a looming but not necessarily immediate threat. It's well enough explained by the fact that they haven't gotten over the wall yet, so everyone south of the wall is jaded about the actual danger they pose and that also isolates occurrences to parts of the story that take place north of the wall, so attacks by them aren't taking place constantly all throughout the story.

I'd say the bigger problem here is more: How in the Hell is Martin going to cover the mass of tangled mess that's going on in Essos with several key characters, get them all to Westeros, reconcile the whole elaborate political mess going on in Westeros and allow them to come to terms with at least one dragon-riding mad woman if not an army of Dothraki and/or enuch slaves and/or ironborn fleet enough so that the lot of them can create some sort of cohesive human army to do battle with the otherwordly, frozen, undead horde pouring down from the North? and all this in two more books?

<edit> and will we get these two books before 2050?

[David Selig]

Xharo Xhoan Daxos begging Daeny to marry him just to get one of her baby dragons.

Instead, he should just have had her murdered by his hundreds of private guards while she was staying in his house, and kept the dragons for himself.

Why EVERYONE doesn't just take Dany's dragons from her before she's got the Unsullied is not really explained.

She didn't have the power to keep them, and we're told a single dragon will make its owner a king, so the realistic thing would have been for Dany to hide out in the Red Waste or on some isolated mountain until her dragons were big and powerful enough to defend her against all enemies.

The moment she arrived in Qarth, every merchant prince, noble and criminal gang boss should have been trying to kill her to take her dragons.

And there was nothing her pitiful khalasar and one knight could have done to stop them.

Yeah, I meant to post this too. Dany's whole plotline in Qarth makes very little sense.

[Lady Blackfyre]

I know this is how the writer intended it to be, but the way Ned concluded Joffrey / Myrcella and Tommen were Jaime's children was SOOOOOOO refutable,

Yeah, it made me cringe, too. Big time.

Still... we cannot say it was inconsistent with the character. As far as we know, Ned might have skipped Biology 101 in school.

Seriously now... I mean, it's a medieval-level society. It's not surprising they're not genetics experts.

[Lady Katherine]

Not sure if this is a "plothole", it may just be mine own ignorance (which is why I'm re-reading the series), but the whole time I was reading ADWD, I was thinking, "why the HELL is Tyrion going to try to join Dany??" What does he expect will happen? Dany hates Lannisters...one killed her father after all...I have a feeling that if and when they finally do meet, Dany will not embrace him and his help with open arms...

Another thing that bugs me, is if Jon turns out to be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, why didn't Ned AT LEAST tell Catelyn of Jon's true parentage? Yes, I get the whole "Promise me, Ned. Promise me" thing, but I also feel like Catelyn was trustworthy enough to keep the secret. It had to break Ned's heart to see Catelyn treating Jon so horribly all the time...I guess Ned taking that secret to the grave makes the whole scenario a little more dramatic, but I feel like even the most honorable of men (such as Ned) would at least say to his wife "hey, this kid is the illegitimate son of my sister and the dead prince, but we're going to pretend he's my bastard, mmkay?" Of course, this is only if Jon turns out to be Lyanna and Rhaegar's kid in the first place...

[Great Dayne]

I have a problem with Illyrio and Varys talking together about a potential rebellion in the castle itself. For someone who is so careful and "master of whispers" I have an iss believing that they would talk in the manner that they did. Varys makes a living off of what Arya did. I would think he would take more precautions when talking about treason.

[Spinebreaker]

About Bran surviving the fall.

Ivan Chisov fell 22,000 feet in 1942. Hit the ground, unconscious at about 150 MPH and was able to get back into a plane 3 months later.

In the 1960's Roger Woodward (age 7) fell down Niagara falls, and emerged with merely a concussion

James Boole more recently fell 6,000 feet and survived (Broke a few bits... but hey so did Bran)

1944 Nicholas Alkemade fell 16,000 feet, broke his fall on some trees, landed wiith a sprained ankle, and had a cigarette.

Bran's fall is unlikely certainly. But I wouldn't go so far as to say a plot-hole.

[Dragon greyscale]

Gods Gods Gods....

NED'S GENETICS 101....

No. I refuse to accept it. I know this is how the writer intended it to be, but the way Ned concluded Joffrey / Myrcella and Tommen were Jaime's children was SOOOOOOO refutable,

God Cersei, you are amazing for having no shame to admit it to Ned, though.

This. And to think it kicked the whole story off... The whole series is a plothole!:P

I mentioned this elsewhere, but don't you think it's strange that people on the boards (proponents of R+L=J spring to mind) have to now stress that physical traits are NOT evidence for a possible heritage?It's remarkable how Ned's "discovery" is so influential in how people read the series.

[Hear Me Roar!]

Bran's fall is perfectly possible too. There are true accounts of people falling out of planes and surviving after their parachutes didn't open. Fiction is a breeding ground for unlikelihood.

Now, Arya's 9-year-old Batman moves are definitely the least realistic thing mentioned here, but it's so freaking cool I just can't seem to care.

What Batman moves?

Seriously, I do not like Arya that much and I think some of the things she has done have been a little odd for a character so young, but...she hasn't done anything THAT ridiculous.

[Woman of War]

Regarding Arya's plotline: If you think of Faceless Manliness as a martial art, like ninjitsu, then it's not so surprising that a young person would be practicing the art because it takes years to learn that stuff. There were also kunoichi, female ninjas, who, I imagine, had to start training as early as the boys. Also, in Westeros, age is no bar when it comes to combat: didn't Barristan enter the lists at age 10? Wasn't Sandor 12 when he first killed a man? Didn't Podrick Payne join the charge at the Battle of the Blackwater, and take on an sword swinging member of the Kingsguard at age 11? Or is Arya's story a problem just because she's a girl?

:agree: this had to be said.

[Faint]

I'm concerned about the long term prospects of a semi-consistent timeline in light of Arya's current position in relation to every other POV.