Plotholes and inconsistencies that bother you (the most)

[Erinne]

One thing that has always bothered me but that I have never ever seen mentioned, not in the books and not in the forum:

If you send a raven to some lord, how on earth does the bird know where to fly? Homing pigeons return to their coops, I get that, but the "messenger ravens" hanging around the lords and their castles seem to be living quite freely, flying around at will ... do you just grab some random birds from the rafter in your maester's study, tie a letter to their leg and tell them "just deliver this to Highgarden for me will ya, go south south west and keep flying for 3000 miles."

An example: In order for the white ravens of the citadel to deliver the message about impending winter, every House with a maester would have had to raise white raven, send it to the Citadel to wait there cooped up in some cage for a few years to then be sent back with a message.

Magic, I guess ...

Have you read the preview chapter for tWoW?

It was explained there that ravens basically work like homing pigeons, except there are a few exceptionally intelligent birds that can memorise several locations and travel between them. I do agree that this does not really match up with how raven-mail was depicted in previous books, but that's the official explanation, anyway.

[Alia of the knife]

Oh god, the baby switching.

I don't mind the possibility of one if it makes sense, but if it comes down to "musical babies," I'm afraid that veers too much into the realm of the soap opera, rather than good story telling.

[BlackTalon]

Have you read the preview chapter for tWoW?

No I haven't and I am not going to :cool4: . I kept from reading the sample chapters for ADWD and AFFC on GRRM's website for six respectively five years ... I´m a bit obsessive compulsive about spoilers :drunk:

BTW dear mods, the quoting function reveals stuff that is written in spoiler tags, as I have just found out o_O

thankfully I could delete it without reading more than the first four words., but still ...

I'll just have to wait for TWOW to explain it all, it seems (if that spoiler was an explanation)

[reek it rhymes with meek]

Me.......I'm a plothole....... :P

You just want to rent some movies and stay home...but yet you have to party all night every night, or you will be fired.....out of the canon to the Sun

[Fire_Kiss]

Wait, they have canned food in Westeros?

Not metal cans, but it's possible they can things in glass jars. Honestly, I don't know. But salt pork and such meats keep for a LONG time. Ever hear of kimchi? That stuff will outlast us all. :D

[Chalais]

-The Targayren not facing a great rebellion the day after they lost their last dragon (how come they managed to stay on top having so few troops of their own?).

Remember that Westeros is a land that spent TEN THOUSAND YEARS in the bronze age before figuring out that Iron might make for better weapons, a little inertia in the 'overthrow the foreign Valyrians' is excusable in this context.

[Independent George]

Oh god, the baby switching.

I don't mind the possibility of one if it makes sense, but if it comes down to "musical babies," I'm afraid that veers too much into the realm of the soap opera, rather than good story telling.

I'm sorry, now I just have to post an excerpt from one of my favorite books.

Mrs. Deirdre Young is giving birth in Delivery Room Three. She is having a golden-haired male baby we will call Baby A.

The wife of the American Cultural Attache, Mrs. Harriet Dowling, is giving birth in Delivery Room Four. She is having a golden-haired male baby we will call Baby B.

Sister Mary Loquacious has been a devout Satanist since birth. She went to Sabbat School as a child and won black stars for handwriting and liver... Currently, she is being handed a golden-haired male baby we will call the Adversary, Destroyer of Kings, Angel of the Bottomless Pit, Great Beast that is called Dragon, Prince of This World, Father of Lies, Spawn of Satan, and Lord of Darkness.

Watch carefully. Round and round they go...

[Kozma]

Way to many brothels. Looks like sex industry is the most developed branch of their economy.

[Morte]

Have you read the preview chapter for tWoW?

It was explained there that ravens basically work like homing pigeons, except there are a few exceptionally intelligent birds that can memorise several locations and travel between them. I do agree that this does not really match up with how raven-mail was depicted in previous books, but that's the official explanation, anyway.

And that's a problem, because ravens don't really work that way. The implied explanation from the earlier books worked better imho.

Offtopic, because I have to:

Mrs. Deirdre Young is giving birth in Delivery Room Three. She is having a golden-haired male baby we will call Baby A.

The wife of the American Cultural Attache, Mrs. Harriet Dowling, is giving birth in Delivery Room Four. She is having a golden-haired male baby we will call Baby B.

Sister Mary Loquacious has been a devout Satanist since birth. She went to Sabbat School as a child and won black stars for handwriting and liver... Currently, she is being handed a golden-haired male baby we will call the Adversary, Destroyer of Kings, Angel of the Bottomless Pit, Great Beast that is called Dragon, Prince of This World, Father of Lies, Spawn of Satan, and Lord of Darkness.

Let's call him Adam.

What a Good Omen! :D

[BlackTalon]

What implied explanation would that be? I remember no such explanation in the earlier books...? The ravens just seem to do as they are told.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Part of me thinks Daenarys. MAJOR patriarchal society, yet for some reason a 14 year old girl with (at one point) no troops, no family, no base of power and the incredibly valuable, incredibly rare, three remaining dragons in the world, and nobody thinks to say "Why am I listening to you? STFU and gimme *stab*." I'm not buying it.

[BlackTalon]

Part of me thinks Daenarys. MAJOR patriarchal society, yet for some reason a 14 year old girl with (at one point) no troops, no family, no base of power and the incredibly valuable, incredibly rare, three remaining dragons in the world, and nobody thinks to say "Why am I listening to you? STFU and gimme *stab*." I'm not buying it.

One word: Bloodriders.

[PatrickStormborn]

Part of me thinks Daenarys. MAJOR patriarchal society, yet for some reason a 14 year old girl with (at one point) no troops, no family, no base of power and the incredibly valuable, incredibly rare, three remaining dragons in the world, and nobody thinks to say "Why am I listening to you? STFU and gimme *stab*." I'm not buying it.

In Qarth she had four bloodriders for protection, and she was also being somewhat protected by Xaro who was hoping to get a dragon through marriage or some other form of alliance. When Qarth no longer wanted her, she was almost killed until Barristan and Belwas showed up.

In Astapor it was different. She had more protectors and even had some ships. It was also in the slavers' best interest to work with her, as they thought she'd use the Unsullied to send them boys who could be made to produce even more Unsullied.

[Jerritus]

Robert being enamored with Lyanna most of his life still has me scratch my head, considering his attention span regarding his family, his other women, and his other children.

But then again, there might be more to the story, and then I think of the reverence he had for so many years for Ned and John Arryn, and maybe it is believeable that he could sustain feelings for people that long.

Still on the fence with the inner workings of Robert.

Robert wasn't in love with Lyanna, he was in love with the idea of Lyanna.

Had she actually survived and married Robert, Robert would have gotten "tired" of her quite fast and Robert would have ended up much the same as he did with Cersei. But since she went and died, Robert is stuck with the idea of Lyanna, fantasy about a perfect life with the perfect woman. Death of Lyanna is Robert's excuse for turning out the way he did. A lifeline of sorts so he doesn't have to deal with the reality that he is in fact a womanizing asshole who can't do shit right, a complete failure, no matter who he would have ended up it.

[Slurms McKenzie]

You just want to rent some movies and stay home...but yet you have to party all night every night, or you will be fired.....out of the canon to the Sun

It's a hard life my good chum.... :(

[Morte]

What implied explanation would that be? I remember no such explanation in the earlier books...? The ravens just seem to do as they are told.

It seemed to me (in the earlier books) that they are trained to fly to specific locations - what would make more sense then hoping for them to fly somewhere where they have been born/had a family five years ago/etc.

This does not even work with pigeons, as then a pigeon takes too long to come back home it may find her- or himself another partner/will asume it's child dead and will not fly to it old home at all but may stay with a group of pigeons it meets on the way. The longer it takes, the greater the risk; with younger pigeons it is greater then with seasoned one.

Also, as they are held in lofts, even a pigeons would long have adopted the pigeonry it has been held in for many months/years as it's home. So it would fly from Winterfell to ... well, Winterfell.

Now the raven seem to be held in one place for quite some time - there's no way they would go "home" if released - as home would long have become the place they have been the last years. This problem is even more sever with the white ravens, who fly only to herald winter.

Also: A mature raven would not try to pay it's parents a visit, as they would not be happy to see it in their patch (raven couples are territorial in natural environment). So no: flying somewhere just because it has been born there, is not a thing a raven would naturaly do (and it's also not what pigeons do - they try to fly back to they swarm where their partner/their fledgling is, not to where they have been born), it would be more logical to train it to fly to a specific location.

[Ser Lepus]

An interesting point... If you think that Varys keeping many raven-utilizing "little birds" in the Free Cities (from when he operated in Essos) doesn't explain how well well informed he is (I'm not entirely in this camp)... Then consider this: Maybe Varys being sold to a Sorcerer isn't the whole story. Maybe Varys actually apprenticed to the Sorcerer (even if as his slave as well) before the cutting that may or may not have happened. In this case, Varys maybe using an Obsidian/Dragonglass candle like Marwyn. Illyrio has the money and trading network to acquire one if Varys can use it.

I have re-read your post and I have realized that maybe I have misunderstood it.

I thought that you were saying that Varys and Illyrio were using obsidian candles to communicate with each other...

But now I have remembered that obsidian candles can be used to scry on people from afar, the same way Marwyn did on Sam. If Varys had been spying on Dany all the time, he could have learned about the dragons the very same day they hatched, have learned that she was going to Qarth far before she reached it, and have enlisted Ser Barristan and sent him to Qarth before Dany herself set foot on it...

If we assume that Varys (or Illyrio) recruited Ser Barristan soon after she hatched her dragons, then the trip from Qarth to Westeros and vice versa could be of five to six months, and it becomes a bit more believable that nobody in King´s Landing has still learned about Dany, even if the fact that any sailor hasn´t still carried the news still challenges my suspension of disbelief.

[a free shadow]

That Shaggydog did nor smell Wex fallowing them.

[Selyp]

Hey everyone,

I have been reading these forums for a while, but registered just to ask this. I haven't seen anyone mention it.

From A Game of Thrones - regarding King Robert naming Jamie Lannister Warden in the East.

"An able and courageous man no doubt" he (Ned) said carefully, "but his father is Warden in the West, Robert. In time Ser Jaime will succeed to that honor. No man should hold both the East and the West. "

But how can Jamie be Warden of anything if he is sworn into the Kingsguard? Especially since Tywin seems to show such anger in later books over Jaime not being able to inherit. Is this just an oversight by GRRM or am I missing something?

[1234567]

That Shaggydog did nor smell Wex fallowing them.

Shaggydog has a poor sense of smell....it's his secret and his shame.

Also given the Ironmen do not sow, Wex "fallowing" them is quite funny!