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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa III

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yes, she may be alone and if she kills LF then no one can save her so far as we know... in the sixth book we could finally have the blackfish appearing at the eyrie, but even before this speculation arises, since sansa has no one at present how can she ask someone else to do the killing for her? until such a time as jaime, brienne, sandor, blackfish or someone else comes along, and if the circumstances require it, she may very well have no choice but to get the job done herself

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But LF didn't have to ask. He manipulated people more willing to kill into having a reason to kill the same people that he wanted to take out.

Like LF, Sansa could eventually prove adept at working behind the scenes to give those with the power and friends that she doesn't have herself a sufficient reason to kill those she would like to clear from the board. No, she wouldn't need to ham-handedly ask anyone to do her dirty work.

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Update: Rapsie and I will (hopefully) be posting the summaries on the symbolism in ACOK, along with Sansa's development in the book between today (Sunday) and Monday. Then I should have Sansa I of ASOS up by Tuesday afternoon. Something tells me this book will be the most controversial yet :)

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Update: Rapsie and I will (hopefully) be posting the summaries on the symbolism in ACOK, along with Sansa's development in the book between today (Sunday) and Monday. Then I should have Sansa I of ASOS up by Tuesday afternoon. Something tells me this book will be the most controversial yet :)

Good, because I just finished the chapter where Sandor and Arya got to the Twins and now on Cat's chapter so I'll need some distractions to focus elsewhere.

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Symbolism/Foreshadowing in ACOK

  1. Slaying savage giants

Lannister reached out and took her hand, and gave it a squeeze. “I am only a little lion, child, and I vow, I shall not savage you.”

He wondered again about Littlefinger. There had been no word from Petyr Baelish since he had ridden off for Bitterbridge. That might mean nothing – or everything. Even Varys could not say. The Eunuch had suggested that perhaps Littlefinger had met some misfortune on the roads. He might even be slain. Tyrion had snorted in derision. “If Littlefinger is dead, then I’m a giant.”

According to the prophecy of the Ghost of High Heart, a maiden with purple serpents in her hair will slay a “savage giant” upon a mountain top. These provocative statements made above indicate that this giant will either be Tyrion Lannister, the Imp, or Petyr Baelish, Littlefinger. Interestingly, both these men have nicknames which reflect their “small” statures, literally in the case of Tyrion as a dwarf, and a metaphorical reference to Littlefinger’s humble origins. Arguably, throughout the course of ACOK, both these men enjoy a rise in power and influence. Petyr goes off to mediate an alliance between the Tyrells and the Lannisters, and Tyrion is in charge as the acting Hand of the King, making preparations for the battle to come against Stannis. However, the end of ACOK has only one man standing and receiving awards and praise: Littlefinger. He is granted the title of Lord Paramount of the Trident, and given Harrenhal as his seat. Tyrion, meanwhile, is on his death bed, gravely injured during the Blackwater Battle. As LF’s family’s sigil is the Titan of Braavos, there is credible reason to believe that he could be the giant of the prophecy, and he certainly has giant ambitions for himself and Sansa that he managed to keep well hidden. Looking ahead to ASOS, it can be argued that Tyrion did indeed keep his promise to Sansa when he did not “savage” her on their wedding night, but in the aftermath of Joff’s death and Sansa’s disappearance, Tyrion could be rethinking his earlier kindness. At the end of ADWD, Tyrion looks set to make a spectacular return to Westeros, and his path could very well cross with Sansa’s. At this point, LF and Tyrion are still contenders for the savage giant prophecy.

2.The younger, more beautiful Queen

If I’m ever a queen, I’ll make them love me.

She never knew why she got to her feet, but she did. “Don’t be afraid,” she told them loudly.

ACOK contributed credible foreshadowing of Sansa’s future role as Queen. We see her ability to think of others before her self, her kindness even to those who have hurt her, along with her compassion and dignity during troubling times. GRRM contrasts these qualities with the absence of such in Cersei Lannister’s behaviour, drawing a glaring parallel between the two women that could point to Sansa being the younger queen that strips Cersei of everything. Sansa’s outer beauty has been noted by many, but it’s the strength of her inner beauty that really surpasses the selfishness and petty cruelty displayed by Cersei. Sansa is determined to rule with love and not fear, rejecting the advice of her monster mother-in-law, and making a conscious choice about her style of authority. It’s a mature reflection that she soon gets the chance to put into practice: helping to calm the fears of the women in the hall, and then tenderly assisting Lancel Lannister. Cersei’s desertion of her duties propels Sansa into the spotlight, and at that moment she is the younger, more beautiful queen.

3. Cloak Exchanges

Sandor Clegane unfastened his cloak and tossed it at her. Sansa clutched it against her chest, fists bunched hard in the white wool. The coarse weave was scratchy against her skin, but no velvet had ever felt so fine.

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

Cloaks in Martin’s world represent marriage and protection. They symbolize a bond between a man and woman – his pledge and her acceptance. GRRM has given us two very deliberate scenes where Sandor’s cloak is being used to bring security and comfort to Sansa. The cloak exchanges symbolize not only the protective role that he plays in her life, but also suggest a romance developing between the two. In the first example listed above, Sandor’s cloak is symbolic of the man himself. It’s rough and homely, but what it (he) offers Sansa feels anything but. In the second scene, which takes place during the Blackwater Battle, Sansa chooses to take the cloak up herself, seeking warmth and solace. This time the cloak is dirty and burnt, but her choice to wear it could foreshadow a future choice to accept Sandor Clegane with his stained reputation and unpleasant features. We later learn that she keeps the cloak hidden as well, another symbolic action that could be Martin’s way of saying that their relationship/their bond, has to be hidden away for a while, but remains cherished by both of them. This action could also foreshadow Sandor’s future redemption. By not rejecting his cloak, Sansa has not rejected the man or her hope for his rage to be healed. The bloody white cloak could also represent lost virginity.

4. Meeting in dark, dangerous places

She was racing headlong down the serpentine steps when a man lurched out of a hidden doorway. Sansa caromed into him and lost her balance. Iron fingers caught her by the wrist before she could fall, and a deep voice rasped at her. “It’s a long roll down the serpentine, little bird. Want to kill us both?” His laughter was rough as a saw on stone. “Maybe you do.”

Turning back to the stair, Sansa climbed. The smoke blotted out the stars and the thin crescent of moon, so the roof was dark and thick with shadows… A stab went through her, so sharp that Sansa clutched at her belly. She might have fallen, but a shadow moved suddenly, and strong fingers grabbed her arm and steadied her.

Whenever Sandor and Sansa meet up it is nearly always very dark outside, and on high ground where she is at risk of falling, which requires him to reach out and save her. Besides underscoring his role as her protector, the symbolism of meeting on twisting staircases and on rooftops could be speaking to the challenges and dangers inherent in their relationship. These are two people who do not occupy even ground, and their attraction/repulsion dynamic places them in dangerous territory where either might fall. Added to all this is the power imbalance between the two which makes any conversation a battleground of wills and desires. The darkness that always surrounds them with flashes of light in the distance could be suggesting that whatever it is between them is still forming, not ready yet to be brought into the light of day, i.e. officially recognized. Also, in relation to Sandor’s insistence that Sansa look at him, Martin could be instead establishing the primacy of touch over sight – with the darkness not preventing a connection from developing, or allowing a deeper one to be established. (We see this in the scene after the tourney feast and when he comes to her room during the BBB)

5. Sacred Places and Holy Prayers

Sansa had favoured her mother’s gods over her father’s. She loved the statues, the pictures in leaded glass, the robes and crystals, the magical play of the rainbows over altars inlaid with mother-of-pearl and onyx and lapis lazuli. Yet she could not deny that the godswood has a certain power too. Especially by night. Help me, she prayed, send a true knight to champion me…

Sansa had never seen the sept so crowded, nor so brightly lit, great shafts of rainbow-colored sunlight slanted down through the crystals in the high windows, and candles burned on every side, their little flames twinkling like stars. The mother’s altar and the Warrior’s swam in light, but the Smith and the Crone and the Maid and Father had their worshippers as well, and there were even a few flames dancing below the Stranger’s half-human face…

She sang for mercy, for the living and dead alike… and finally toward the end she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

In both of these holy places – the godswood and the sept – Sansa makes two prayers which we can argue are answered by the events later on in the book. The first prayer calls for a true knight, foreshadowing Sandor’s rescue of her during the riot on KL, and the second prayer foreshadows the incident in her bedroom where Sansa is able to cool Sandor’s rage and he later goes on to do a kind of penance on the Quiet Isle. Her increasing connection to the godswood is also important, symbolising her growing ties to the North even while exiled.

6. Just don’t call me ser

Sandor Clegane cantered briskly through the gates astride Sansa’s chestnut courser. The girl was seated behind, both arms tight around the Hound’s chest… Clegane lifted her to the ground. His white cloak was torn and stained, and blood seeped through a jagged tear in his left sleeve. “The little bird’s bleeding. Someone take her back to her cage and see to that cut.”

She’d thought she was going to die then, but the fingers had twitched, all five at once, and the man has shrieked loud as a horse. When his hand fell away, another hand, stronger, shoved her back into her saddle. The man with the garlicky breath was on the ground, blood pumping out the stump of his arm, but there were others all around, some with clubs in hand. The Hound leapt at them, his sword a blur of steel that trailed red mist as it swung. When they broke and ran before him he had laughed, his terrible burned face for a moment transformed.

“I could keep you safe,” he rasped. “They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them.”

Sandor may be adamant that Sansa’s belief in true knights is the foolish fantasy of a young girl, but throughout ACOK he’s the one performing the selfless heroics that define the work of a true knight, and at their last meeting he’s the one offering to take her away from her miserable situation and to protect her against any threats. Although Sansa doesn’t realise it on a conscious level yet, her prayers were answered that night in the godswood, but the true knight didn’t come in the form of someone dashing like Ser Loras or well spoken like Garlan Tyrell. It seems likely that Sandor’s status as her true knight hasn’t ended yet and that he will play a future role in helping to rescue/protect her.

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brash & raspie, this was a great analysis for Sansa's development in A Clash of Kings. you pointed out everything that happened really well and hopefully some of the conclusions mentioned above will come true. just one quick thing: tyrion and LF obviously would be better since they are personally connected to sansa, but do these two rule out un-gregor for the slaying-the-giant prophecy?

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brash & raspie, this was a great analysis for Sansa's development in A Clash of Kings. you pointed out everything that happened really well and hopefully some of the conclusions mentioned above will come true. just one quick thing: tyrion and LF obviously would be better since they are personally connected to sansa, but do these two rule out un-gregor for the slaying-the-giant prophecy?

:) Actually Rapsie's post on Sansa's development is still yet to come. But I'm glad you liked what I wrote, Caro. Yes, I don't think that un-gregor will be the giant in that particular prophecy. He seems like a better fit for the stone giant of Bran's dream:

He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

We could very well see Sansa involved in killing Un-gregor too, along with Jaime, Sandor/Brienne and Arya; but the savage giant seems to be personal to her storyline.

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I think Sansa could kill, depending on the circumstances. If killing Littlefinger is the only way to stop him from killing her, or little Robert, then I think Sansa could do it. Or if Sansa became angry enough, and had the means, I think she could kill, especially someone who has injured her and her family as much as Littlefinger has.

By "moving in for a kill" I didn't necessarily mean murder per se, but more like a daring move in the Game, which I think that Sansa lacks the resolve and initiative to make.

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By "moving in for a kill" I didn't necessarily mean murder per se, but more like a daring move in the Game, which I think that Sansa lacks the resolve and initiative to make.

I think she still might; but she does not yet have the resources and alliances to make any movies. The only way that Littlefinger became strong enough to become a major player himself was to stay under the radar for a long time and work behind the scenes. Sansa is in serious danger if she leaves Littlefinger's protection, and in moral danger if she stays. She's kept her feelings and hopes veiled and repressed for a long time now, and at some point I think she is going to want to do more than to dance to Littlefinger's tune. But we'll see what happens in the next book, if GRRM ever gets around to writing it.

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Why would she have to have sex with Tyrion? They even have an agreement she can always through into his face - that he will never touch her if she does not want him to. After being Alayne, I think Sansa is quite captable to remind Tyrion of this promise even (or especially) in Dany's presence, just to make sure that he does not forget it.

I agree that she could do all that but I would rather have sex with Tyrion and go back to being Lady Sansa Lannister if it meant I was in a better position to protect myself and not be used to the maximum like LF plans. Sex and poison is the only weapon Sansa has in this world to make her way. Tyrion in my opinion is less scary and creepy than LF and I would worry less about being hung out to dry by Tyrion than LF when I am no longer useful. LF is stupidly telling Sansa all his plans, she has got to know that he cannot be trusted even though she has no choice at the moment. Hurry up death by hair net!

I put my bet on Sansa, and her marriage with Tyrion would (in this scenario) only be her tool to no longer be dependent on LF - I don't know if destroying LFs plans in the Vale (and most likely also with Dany) would be the last encounter, or if Sansa will have to face him once more (maybe with Sandor) to fully get ride of him; but IMHO it would be possible that Sansa pulls the "marriage"-card to get herself out of LF hands (maybe to get someone to bring her to Dany, or to listen to her), if for example she does decide to flee with Sweetrobin.

I just tried to think what Sansa would be able to do to beat LF on his own field realistically, since as Sansa Stark and Alayne Stone LF thinks of her as his tool - but wouldn't it be ironic if the Lannisters provided Sansa with a tool to play the game as they her married her to Tyrion?

But maybe we should discuss Sansa possibilities and abilities after LF's "training" (and to get ride of him) when we do actually come to the chapters in the vale, we are almost there. :)

:agree:

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I think she still might; but she does not yet have the resources and alliances to make any movies. The only way that Littlefinger became strong enough to become a major player himself was to stay under the radar for a long time and work behind the scenes. Sansa is in serious danger if she leaves Littlefinger's protection, and in moral danger if she stays. She's kept her feelings and hopes veiled and repressed for a long time now, and at some point I think she is going to want to do more than to dance to Littlefinger's tune. But we'll see what happens in the next book, if GRRM ever gets around to writing it.

:agree: It's a bide her time until she can make a move to free herself from him and his plans situation unfortunately

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I think Sansa could kill, depending on the circumstances. If killing Littlefinger is the only way to stop him from killing her, or little Robert, then I think Sansa could do it. Or if Sansa became angry enough, and had the means, I think she could kill, especially someone who has injured her and her family as much as Littlefinger has.

I agree with you wholeheartly here, though it might mean to let someone be killed by another - but she would need a especially very, very good reason to kill someone singlehanded.

Which leads me too,

I think she still might; but she does not yet have the resources and alliances to make any movies. The only way that Littlefinger became strong enough to become a major player himself was to stay under the radar for a long time and work behind the scenes. Sansa is in serious danger if she leaves Littlefinger's protection, and in moral danger if she stays. She's kept her feelings and hopes veiled and repressed for a long time now, and at some point I think she is going to want to do more than to dance to Littlefinger's tune. But we'll see what happens in the next book, if GRRM ever gets around to writing it.

because I just talked about Sansa with my boyfriend (so much about men finding her boring...) who almost finished AFfC by now, and we just realised, that Sansa is not consciously aware of that LF did to her family and the realm - at least there is nothing that hints toward this in the text. I think there could be two reasons for this, as she has been told all the facts to make the correct assumptions:

1. she is in defense mode and hadn't had the time to think all the things over, that LF has told her about

2. GRRM doesn't want to spoil the surprise then Sansa strikes at LF - with her being very calm and able to focus herself, it wouldn't even be bad writing, because I think Sansa can distract her very well from her own plans.

P.S. My boyfriend does actually think that Sansa will poison LF with the strangler from her hairnet, while I think that destroying all he has build up would be the most fitting and cruel end for him - after this he can wander aimless thru the Riverlands and run into Stoneheart. :x

P.P.S. Raksha - I also liked what you said about Dany: I think both girls are not completly different from each other and would actually get along quite well. Also, both don't have the education needed for the game, but still struggling not to be destroyed by the more experienced players.

P.P.P.S. With every re-read I believe it more possible that GRRM aims to have all major houses be ruled by women at the end - or at least having a female heir (yes, even the Lannisters, with Mycella either being the heir or even already lady, because Tyrion has matured and is happy with being the best Hand ever - this would IMHO be a major sign for him being free of his father and family, having finally found confidence without a stupid family name)

I also will now try to wait paciently till we reach the chapters related to LF - sorry :blushing:

Edit: Just realised - yes, quite late - that I wrote Marg instead of Mycella - doh! >.<

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I don't know how it will happen but I still think Sandor will have a role in Sansa slaying the giant (be it LF or Tyrion).

His role in her story isn't complete.

Her prayers to the gods seem to come true. From asking for a knight, to asking for Joff to lose his shield, men and even life. She prayed for Sandor's rage to cool and seems that is happening on QI.

I also don't think the Harry marriage will occur. Something will happen before that happens.

Still, I could see Sansa finding a way to slay LF if: a-he sexually accosts her b-she finds out he betrayed her father and did the hit on Bran c-he tries to kill Sweetrobin

Oh heck all 3 might even occur and the last event just pushes her over the edge. Sandor might be how she finds out about b.

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I know this probably don't mean anything, but ain't it funny that both Tyrion and Sansa have in their possession a lethal poison, the strangler for Sansa and some mushrooms for Tyrion.

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I know this probably don't mean anything, but ain't it funny that both Tyrion and Sansa have in their possession a lethal poison, the strangler for Sansa and some mushrooms for Tyrion.

Ain't funny, I could see them trying to off each other to get free or get WF.

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I agree with you wholeheartly here, though it might mean to let someone be killed by another - but she would need a especially very, very good reason to kill someone singlehanded.

Which leads me too,

because I just talked about Sansa with my boyfriend (so much about men finding her boring...) who almost finished AFfC by now, and we just realised, that Sansa is not consciously aware of that LF did to her family and the realm - at least there is nothing that hints toward this in the text. I think there could be two reasons for this, as she has been told all the facts to make the correct assumptions:

1. she is in defense mode and hadn't had the time to think all the things over, that LF has told her about

2. GRRM doesn't want to spoil the surprise then Sansa strikes at LF - with her being very calm and able to focus herself, it wouldn't even be bad writing, because I think Sansa can distract her very well from her own plans.

P.S. My boyfriend does actually think that Sansa will poison LF with the strangler from her hairnet, while I think that destroying all he has build up would be the most fitting and cruel end for him - after this he can wander aimless thru the Riverlands and run into Stoneheart. :x

P.P.S. Raksha - I also liked what you said about Dany: I think both girls are not completly different from each other and would actually get along quite well. Also, both don't have the education needed for the game, but still struggling not to be destroyed by the more experienced players.

P.P.P.S. With every re-read I believe it more possible that GRRM aims to have all major houses be ruled by women at the end - or at least having a female heir (yes, even the Lannisters, with Margery either being the heir or even already lady, because Tyrion has matured and is happy with being the best Hand ever - this would IMHO be a major sign for him being free of his father and family, having finally found confidence without a stupid family name)

I also will now try to wait paciently till we reach the chapters related to LF - sorry :blushing:

Been thinking this for a while myself, but with Marcella or Sansa as head ruler.

But I still want all the Starks to come on top.

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@ brashcandy

I was re-reading AFFC last night going through Cersei's POVs and I came across the story of the night Joffrey was conceived. Of course I don't have the book here but Robert, Cersei, Jaime and presumably half the court was visiting some isolated keep where the widow of a friend of Robert's lived, and of course he snuck off at night to show a closer friendship, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Jaime asks Cersei if she wants him to kill Robert and Cersei says, no I want you to horn him.

The keep was called green something, and as soon as they get there Jaime names it Greenshit.

I laughed out loud, thinking of your analysis about Tywin riding in to the throne room and his horse dropping a load in front of Joffrey.....shit to the shit, conceived in Greenshit!

Edit: Greenstone, the seat of the house of Estermont, where Robert's mother came from; spotted Sylva, Princess Arianne's co-conspirator, gets shipped out after the rescue of Myrcella to marry 70 year old Lord Estermont.

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greenshit....that's funny!

I am on the thought of Sandor and Sansa connection being SOOOOO off-radar for everyong (especially LF) that it is going to come into play somehow.

two characters don't develop a secret "thing" for no reason....something will come of it later

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Please lord, bring this website back to normal, I can't find things without looking at my profile. It is driving me crazy not to be able to constantly check on things! :bawl:

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