From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa III

[Thrice the Hound]

Perhaps LF thinks of Tyrion as a sane and relatively non-selfish stone on the board. Neither his complete family loyalty (to Cersei-promoted folly or Tywin-promoted pride) nor well-meaning interference at the service of a greater sense of justice can be depended on. LF may simply find him too complex to be a pawn and not ambitious enough to be a player. It may not be that LF hates Tyrion but that he wants to remove him from the board as an unpredictable element.

I agree, Tyrion is LF's only real threat with money and status on his side Tyrion posed too big a threat to LF's plans. He is too smart for LF to manipulate and he wants him removed from the game completely.

I think Sandor hates Tyrion because he blames him for the extra threat to Sansa after Tyrion stopped Joff from beating her. We can't forget that Sandor is right next to Joff all the time, just because we don't get a POV from Sandor or Joff it does not mean there were no plans in the works from Joff to hurt and humiliate Sansa more than usual as a result of Tyrion's interferring with his fun and games. We saw that really come to a head at Joff's wedding when he told Sansa he would have Tyrion send Sansa to his room like a whore :( the little monster did turn his threats up a notch after Tyrion's interference.

[Raksha the Demon]

I've recently moved away from the idea that Sansa will grow to be a fully realised player in the Game. Despite her increasing awareness and knowledge of how things work, she simply lacks the required amorality and practicality. At her core, she's still that naive little girl that loves bard songs and lemon cakes.

Unless GRRM brings Sansa up to age 17 or 18 by the last book, I am not sure that she will be a fully realized player in the Game; she is just too young. I don't know of too many women in the Middle Ages and Renaissance or earlier who were playing politics on their own at 14 or 15, at least not successfully, they were usually at least advised, if not controlled by others. The future Elizabeth I of England was caught in a rather shameful and (by the standards of the time) sexually suggestive escapade with her stepmother's husband when she was 14, the same age as Sansa is in AFFC (though Sansa might be almost 14, I can't remember), and no one disputes that she became a significant player of her own game of thrones later. Poor Lady Jane Grey was forced into a marriage and claim on the crown at 16, I think, neither of which she wanted; by her greedy parents and in-laws, and paid for their schemes with her life. I don't think Alexander the Great was much of a player at the age of 14 either.

In my opinion, Robb became a player at too young an age; which was not his fault.

Littlefinger himself was a naive kid when he was a little older than Sansa in AFFC - challenging Brandon Stark, a badass young knight, to a duel for Catelyn's hand, was a magnificent but foolish (and quite naive) gesture, given young Petyr's size and lack of martial prowess compared to Brandon's age (at least five years older, I think) and ability.

Lyanna very possibly became a player in the Game around the age of 14, if, as I believe, she eloped with Rhaegar of her own free will; and look how well that ended up.

Daenerys lucked into power; after Drogo's death, she was demoted to the status of pawn; and had the sense (and courage) to take a huge leap of faith in supernatural/magic opportunities that have not been available to Sansa. So far, as a 14-16-year-old queen, she has gone farther and farther from her original goal of conquering and ruling Westeros; so I'm not ready to anoint her a completely successful player in the Game.

Give Sansa time. I think that she does have a destiny of doing more than being manipulated or rescued (or both). I don't know that she will even survive the series (hope so!), but I have a feeling she will play an active role in Littlefinger's downfall, either on her own initiative, or in knowing concert with others (which might be more sensible, depending on who they are).

Sansa might retain a core of idealism; but I think she has already become more practical and much more cognizant to the political realities of the world she lives in - the two are not mutually exclusive; if Sansa yearns for a better world and yet learns how to live and thrive in the often unpleasant world of the Seven Kingdoms and occasionally can use her compassion to help others survive as well. As for enjoying lemon cakes, nothing wrong with that...

I'm not sure how enthusiastic Sansa is for bards after her experiences with Marillion, though....

[Morte]

Perhaps LF thinks of Tyrion as a sane and relatively non-selfish stone on the board. Neither his complete family loyalty (to Cersei-promoted folly or Tywin-promoted pride) nor well-meaning interference at the service of a greater sense of justice can be depended on. LF may simply find him too complex to be a pawn and not ambitious enough to be a player. It may not be that LF hates Tyrion but that he wants to remove him from the board as an unpredictable element.

This will be a little offtopic and proleptic, but I have too: :leaving:

I think that Tyrion's appearence at Dany's court will destroy all plans LF might have constructed to ally himself with her, as Tyrion will most likely tell Dany about the players of the game, and he is very suspicious toward LF.

However, this might give Sansa a possibility to move again LF without risking being handeled to the KL-factions:

She is the only witness of LF crimes and has all the evidence against LF, but she can't move now, because she would risk being send to KL; with Tyrion coming back with Dany (and landing somewhere near the Vale), she would be able to turn to Dany with all she knows with reduced risk, because by that time Tyrion (her husband) would already be Dany's Hand.

So Sansa would bring LF down the moment he tries to ally with Dany, saving herself and probably also Sweetrobin, by using the skills LF had taught her: She will not be happy to see Tyrion, but she will have learned to ally with someone against a commen foe (the foe of my foe is my friend), and to use her link to Tyrion for her own benefice.

I think this would be a niveau of the game she would be able to play by that time, even without the 5-year-gap.

(Beside: Sansa needs to get her dragon)

[voodooqueen126]

This will be a little offtopic and proleptic, but I have too: :leaving:

I think that Tyrion's appearence at Dany's court will destroy all plans LF might have constructed to ally himself with her, as Tyrion will most likely tell Dany about the players of the game, and he is very suspicious toward LF.

However, this might give Sansa a possibility to move again LF without risking being handeled to the KL-factions:

She is the only witness of LF crimes and has all the evidence against LF, but she can't move now, because she would risk being send to KL; with Tyrion coming back with Dany (and landing somewhere near the Vale), she would be able to turn to Dany with all she knows with reduced risk, because by that time Tyrion (her husband) would already be Dany's Hand.

So Sansa would bring LF down the moment he tries to ally with Dany, saving herself and probably also Sweetrobin, by using the skills LF had taught her: She will not be happy to see Tyrion, but she will have learned to ally with someone against a commen foe (the foe of my foe is my friend), and to use her link to Tyrion for her own benefice.

I think this would be a niveau of the game she would be able to play by that time, even without the 5-year-gap.

(Beside: Sansa needs to get her dragon)

Yes but then she would have to have sex with Tyrion?

Have you ever had a sexual encounter with someone you don't love? It's gross.

[the Scorpion Knight]

This will be a little offtopic and proleptic, but I have too: :leaving:

I think that Tyrion's appearence at Dany's court will destroy all plans LF might have constructed to ally himself with her, as Tyrion will most likely tell Dany about the players of the game, and he is very suspicious toward LF.

However, this might give Sansa a possibility to move again LF without risking being handeled to the KL-factions:

She is the only witness of LF crimes and has all the evidence against LF, but she can't move now, because she would risk being send to KL; with Tyrion coming back with Dany (and landing somewhere near the Vale), she would be able to turn to Dany with all she knows with reduced risk, because by that time Tyrion (her husband) would already be Dany's Hand.

So Sansa would bring LF down the moment he tries to ally with Dany, saving herself and probably also Sweetrobin, by using the skills LF had taught her: She will not be happy to see Tyrion, but she will have learned to ally with someone against a commen foe (the foe of my foe is my friend), and to use her link to Tyrion for her own benefice.

I think this would be a niveau of the game she would be able to play by that time, even without the 5-year-gap.

(Beside: Sansa needs to get her dragon)

don't put your bet on tyrion to destroy LF

me thinks it Sandor and Jaime

[Jerritus]

Martin needs to do a time skip. Really. Not necessarily 5 years, but 2 or 3 even...

The kids are simply too young for anything they will do in the future to make any sense. Kids around age 12 simply aren't masterminds at anything, thus it really hurts the integrity of the books. Even 15 is pushing it.

Meh, I guess I just have to deal with it.

[brashcandy]

Sansa will be learning the skills of political intrigue and how to read and analyse human behaviour and desires from LF. I don't see why her young age should necessarily make this difficult to imagine, given the concentration of experiences she's been through and events that she's witnessed. I do think her future romantic storylines could have benefitted from the 5 yr gap though, so it will be interesting to see just how far GRRM will go in this area.

[adreamer]

Well, I think the next 2 books will cover more time, since winter has already come. It will slow traveling, wars, pretty much everything. We saw this with Stanis marching to Winterfell and if I remember correctly, when Sandor wanted to take Arya to the Vale someone told them that the snow that recently fall made it impassable. So if GRRM want to slow events and that way give time to Sansa, Arya, etc to grow he can do it quite easily IMO.

[Grail King]

I can't see why he couldn't add time through a prologue saying just before his gift chapter, George himself says he isn't tight on his time lines.

[childofsummer]

One thing I noticed on my last reread that it was never shown "onscreen" how Sansa reacted to the news of Bran and Rickon's "death", who told her this and when. We only have a mention in her second chapter of ASOS that she has received that piece of news some time ago. I think this is a shame, it could've been an interesting and powerful scene. I wonder why Cersei missed the chance to be mean in the previous two chapters by telling Sansa that. She was woo distracted probably.

Several unpleasant things happen to Sansa offscreen...KG beatings, most notably. Maybe it was an editing decision to cut out yet another example of Cersei emotionally abusing Sansa. Or maybe GRRM didn't think it would add anything, since we can infer that Sansa would have been upset to hear of her brothers' deaths.

[Morte]

Yes but then she would have to have sex with Tyrion?

Have you ever had a sexual encounter with someone you don't love? It's gross.

Why would she have to have sex with Tyrion? They even have an agreement she can always through into his face - that he will never touch her if she does not want him to. After being Alayne, I think Sansa is quite captable to remind Tyrion of this promise even (or especially) in Dany's presence, just to make sure that he does not forget it.

don't put your bet on tyrion to destroy LF

me thinks it Sandor and Jaime

I put my bet on Sansa, and her marriage with Tyrion would (in this scenario) only be her tool to no longer be dependent on LF - I don't know if destroying LFs plans in the Vale (and most likely also with Dany) would be the last encounter, or if Sansa will have to face him once more (maybe with Sandor) to fully get ride of him; but IMHO it would be possible that Sansa pulls the "marriage"-card to get herself out of LF hands (maybe to get someone to bring her to Dany, or to listen to her), if for example she does decide to flee with Sweetrobin.

I just tried to think what Sansa would be able to do to beat LF on his own field realistically, since as Sansa Stark and Alayne Stone LF thinks of her as his tool - but wouldn't it be ironic if the Lannisters provided Sansa with a tool to play the game as they her married her to Tyrion?

But maybe we should discuss Sansa possibilities and abilities after LF's "training" (and to get ride of him) when we do actually come to the chapters in the vale, we are almost there. :)

[Caro99]

Unless GRRM brings Sansa up to age 17 or 18 by the last book, I am not sure that she will be a fully realized player in the Game; she is just too young. I don't know of too many women in the Middle Ages and Renaissance or earlier who were playing politics on their own at 14 or 15, at least not successfully, they were usually at least advised, if not controlled by others. The future Elizabeth I of England was caught in a rather shameful and (by the standards of the time) sexually suggestive escapade with her stepmother's husband when she was 14, the same age as Sansa is in AFFC (though Sansa might be almost 14, I can't remember), and no one disputes that she became a significant player of her own game of thrones later. Poor Lady Jane Grey was forced into a marriage and claim on the crown at 16, I think, neither of which she wanted; by her greedy parents and in-laws, and paid for their schemes with her life. I don't think Alexander the Great was much of a player at the age of 14 either.

very intresintg points, and even though sansa is still very young and may still be so when the story finishes, when you mentioned jane grey i remembered mary queen of scots... do you think there are any parallels so far between mary and sansa?

[chris999]

Martin needs to do a time skip. Really. Not necessarily 5 years, but 2 or 3 even...

The kids are simply too young for anything they will do in the future to make any sense. Kids around age 12 simply aren't masterminds at anything, thus it really hurts the integrity of the books. Even 15 is pushing it.

Meh, I guess I just have to deal with it.

I agree with you. A 3 year time skip would make everything more believable, but it isnt 100% true.

We view people under the age of 18 as children in today's society because of things like school and the legal age, but in the middle ages, people matured much earlier.

In terms of maturity, back then age 15 is equal to about age 20 today. Life was much harder, and people grew up and accepted responsibility much sooner.

I do agree that a 3 year time gap would make things a little bit more understandable though.

[Raksha the Demon]

very intresintg points, and even though sansa is still very young and may still be so when the story finishes, when you mentioned jane grey i remembered mary queen of scots... do you think there are any parallels so far between mary and sansa?

Only that both Sansa and Mary are attractive, charismatic auburn-haired females born into high positions. Hmmm...they did both leave the lands of their births to go marry a southern prince; but Mary was a six-year-old girl who went to France without her mother (ruling Scotland on her behalf) or father (died when Mary, his only legitimate child, was nine days old). And Mary was not persecuted or betrayed during the years she spent in the royal court of France, au contraire, she was adored, praised, educated, and turned into a little French princess. Her fiancee, the French king's oldest son, was no Joffrey either; and they got along well. Unfortunately, they were only married a few months I think (when both were about 15) when the prince took ill and died. Mary was sent back to Scotland at 18, where she proceeded to make a mess of things and was eventually exiled, and then held captive by her cousin Elizabeth I of England until eventually Mary was executed for her supposed involvement in both Mary's second husband's death (Lord Darnley, who was handsome and charming but not very nice) and later Catholic plots on her behalf to assassinate Elizabeth. Mary had one child, James, by Darnley, who was raised as a Protestant by the Scottish lords who had exiled his mother, and eventually became king of Scotland and England. Mary Queen of Scots was an ancestress of the current Queen of England...

Sansa only spent two years in a royal court, and much of that time was as a captive and hostage. She still seems to have a good memory of being a daughter of the North, though she is experiencing something of an identity crisis as Alayne Stone; but I don't expect her to keep that disguise forever. If Sansa were to somehow return to Winterfell as Lady Stark, with Rickon dead, and her father's surviving vassals and bannermen think she is no longer a true Stark, then I would fear that Sansa could be heading down Mary Stewart's sad road.

[PestilencE]

But isn't that a facet of human nature generally? That yes we get older, become more mature and intelligent, but there's an essential part of us we never lose? Sansa has already shown remarkable growth in just the space of two books, with two more to go in our analysis, and 2 left for GRRM to write. I see no reason why she can't develop into a player and still keep that love of lemoncakes and bard songs. Those are the things that make Sansa Sansa.

True. But still, if the time comes where she'd have to move in for a kill, I don't see her carrying it out.

[Raksha the Demon]

I think Sansa could kill, depending on the circumstances. If killing Littlefinger is the only way to stop him from killing her, or little Robert, then I think Sansa could do it. Or if Sansa became angry enough, and had the means, I think she could kill, especially someone who has injured her and her family as much as Littlefinger has.

[Caro99]

Only that both Sansa and Mary are attractive, charismatic auburn-haired females born into high positions. Hmmm...they did both leave the lands of their births to go marry a southern prince; but Mary was a six-year-old girl who went to France without her mother (ruling Scotland on her behalf) or father (died when Mary, his only legitimate child, was nine days old). And Mary was not persecuted or betrayed during the years she spent in the royal court of France, au contraire, she was adored, praised, educated, and turned into a little French princess. Her fiancee, the French king's oldest son, was no Joffrey either; and they got along well. Unfortunately, they were only married a few months I think (when both were about 15) when the prince took ill and died. Mary was sent back to Scotland at 18, where she proceeded to make a mess of things and was eventually exiled, and then held captive by her cousin Elizabeth I of England until eventually Mary was executed for her supposed involvement in both Mary's second husband's death (Lord Darnley, who was handsome and charming but not very nice) and later Catholic plots on her behalf to assassinate Elizabeth. Mary had one child, James, by Darnley, who was raised as a Protestant by the Scottish lords who had exiled his mother, and eventually became king of Scotland and England. Mary Queen of Scots was an ancestress of the current Queen of England...

Sansa only spent two years in a royal court, and much of that time was as a captive and hostage. She still seems to have a good memory of being a daughter of the North, though she is experiencing something of an identity crisis as Alayne Stone; but I don't expect her to keep that disguise forever. If Sansa were to somehow return to Winterfell as Lady Stark, with Rickon dead, and her father's surviving vassals and bannermen think she is no longer a true Stark, then I would fear that Sansa could be heading down Mary Stewart's sad road.

and of course i knew you woud come out with some great parallels!! lol, yes physically of course they would sort of look alike, but it's been so long since i've watched or read anything about mary that i was kind of forgetting about all the details in her life.. but some similarities are there. both were fond of singers and were foolish and naive when young but as the years and experiences happened, sansa seems to bee maturing a little bit more than mary. i also really hope that she does not end up like mary. as much as i want her to end up married (not necesarily a queen though) i would prefer her to be a sort of elizabeth I & a virgin queen than mary...

[Caro99]

i also agree that sansa can be forced into a position of killing someone. the obvious choice for some is at present LF and she wouldn't even have to kill him in a messy way, but rather use poison since it is a woman's weapon. (i would love her to shove him through the moondoor saying that she has only ever loved one man: sandor) but if the circumstances required it i can even picture her stabbin LF in the back or something. if the times comes when her life or someone's life is in danger, she'll find the strength to defend herself from inside. hopefully we won't have her ordering people killed as the future queen of westeros in a future where she is LF's female version: scheming, lusting for power and revenge...

[Dark Rider]

Little Finger is Sansa's only protection right now and her best way to get control of Winterfell and the North again. She's not going to kill him.

[Summerqueen]

If Sansa were smart, she'd get someone else to kill for her while making that person think it was all his own idea. You know, like LF usually tries to do.