From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa III

[Grail King]

She's old and a no nonsense type of woman, she can't perceive Sansa's fears, just like today a lot of people can't understand why a kidnap victim wouldn't try to escape if they had a chance.

[Maroucia]

:shocked: I had never noticed the parallels between Willas and Sandor: the phrase "he has a bad leg, but a good heart" could apply to either. Both love animals. Both are gentle (Willas, heard of as gentle from Margaery, and, strangely, Tywin; Sandor in practice with Sansa). Both are patient with children (Willas reading to Margaery; Sandor lauding Tommen's bravery). Both have been snatched away from her just as she had begun to depend on them - Willas, for the dream of Highgarden and the puppies; and Sandor, as the unknighted knight. Interesting. Thanks for highlighting that, Brash!

Yeah... But Willas is said to be boooring! Which Sandor is not, of course!

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

LOL but wasn't it LF who said he was boring? Of course he would say so

Willas is also well-bred and courtly and mannerly.....whereas we know sandor is sandpaper to willas' smooth typing paper

sandor has the edge in that he is a fighter and definitely able to defend (although we are still waiting on his recovery at the QI so this is not a certainty)

but.....sandor is also not a brain-washed sheeple as willas just may be in regards to the BS of the courts

sure willis is kind and gentle....but is he smart enough to see a lie from the truth? we don't know him....we only have the word of a select few about his character. he may be a kinky nasty lil bastard who likes bondage in bed ;)

[brashcandy]

Excellent summary and analysis as usual. I just want to bring up a point for you to consider later that occured to me while reading this. I would wait until you get to the chapter in question, but I know I will forget! Sansa has kept the Hound's cloak which we learn in this chapter. What I wonder is why is that cloak not mentioned later? Surely Sansa's trunk is searched for clues to where she has gone. Wouldn't someone question why she has a KG cloak. Perhaps this is of no consequence, but I thought I would mention it.

Yes, the cloak :) Well, either LF had some of her clothing removed from KL and it's currently in the Vale, or when her things were searched no one noticed anything suspicious about it. In the state it was in - bloody and burnt - it would have raised some eyebrows, but I don't know if they would have necessarily recognized it as a KG cloak.

:shocked: I had never noticed the parallels between Willas and Sandor: the phrase "he has a bad leg, but a good heart" could apply to either. Both love animals. Both are gentle (Willas, heard of as gentle from Margaery, and, strangely, Tywin; Sandor in practice with Sansa). Both are patient with children (Willas reading to Margaery; Sandor lauding Tommen's bravery). Both have been snatched away from her just as she had begun to depend on them - Willas, for the dream of Highgarden and the puppies; and Sandor, as the unknighted knight. Interesting. Thanks for highlighting that, Brash!

Yes, when I read that I thought sneaky sneaky Martin. Just look who's gonna end up with a bad leg later on in ASOS.

I agree, after hearing of Joff's treatment of Sansa did Olenna really think that Sansa would just tell the truth about Joffrey without fear of retribution from the Lannisters?

Lady Olenna's comment was uncalled for. Sansa has no one she can depend on in KL, whilst Marg has brought nearly her entire family to court, of course the girl is going to be scared witless. It was an insensitive remark for sure, and the fact is that Sansa had no reason to trust the Tyrells.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

the cloak will reappear. it is known

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Nice analysis as always. This chapter of Sansa shows what I love about her character growth. Despite how she has grown from AGOT I find her slight fangirling about loras incredible cute, and sad because she gets a slap in her face, because he doesn't remember giving her the red rose. Those who betray her ( even if those are not aware of it) slowly makes her more to distrust and it is quite painfully to read how bitterly Sansa is left behind. And this why I dislike the Tyrells they are no better then the Lannisters in my opinion. I love how Sansa kept that cloak fondly. Despite his occasion rudeness he was the only friend she had in Kings Landing. The fact how she understands the reason why Sandor left and others are being insensitive shows how compassionate and emphatic Sansa is of nature.

[Caro99]

This chapter is really good. We get a lot of insightful stuff with the tyrell break-fast, and of the way sansa is growing up and can still carry on illusions hen daydreaming about a guy, which makes me happy since this shows us she isn’t as bitter with life as she ought to be after everything joff putt her though. We really get to see how desperate and afraid she is of him still with the way she reacts with the tyrell women, and here in that particular moment reminds me of theon in her reek chapters, sad to say. But it’s funny when she is thinking she’ll be able to marry loras only to be told that it’s willas, that bit always makes me chuckle. I don’t like loras that much, so though it may sound harsh, I’m a little glad that he shows her that he is not interested.

Maybe this happened in between her chapters but I wonder if marge never told sansa that she had seen her mother back when cat went to renly’s camp. I think sansa would have liked to learn how her mother was fairing then…

I’m happy that sansa’s day dreaming thing of sandor started just after he left KL. She is constantly thinking of him. she may think herself on love with loras, but her subconscious gives her away. I like to have her wondering what it may have been like had she gone with him. it may be possible that the un-kiss thing came about on one of these nights. The cloak is of course for me a sign that when winter ends she will be able to stop hiding her love for him and announce it to the world. Right now it’s secret and she can’t even understand it, but she knows it is important and so she hides it in a special place where she can return to when she is alone!

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I am not sure why, but one of the most heartbreaking moments in the entire series for me is when the plan to send her to Highgarden to marry Willas is smashed by the Lannisters' preemptive strike. The Tyrells may be power hungry, but they are a FAMILY, that much is obvious. They stick together, are loyal and even affectionate towards each other, and far less dysfunctional than almost all the other families we have seen. Sansa, of course, indulges her romantic side when she pictures herself and Willas sitting around with children and puppies, but in this case I think her romantic visions could have actually come close to her reality. Willas is well spoken of by everyone who mentions him. He might not be the dashing knight, but I am willing to bet Sansa would have been able to bring herself to love him, both to satisfy her romantic nature, and also with her natural empathy which would have overlooked his leg.

Willas would probably have come to feel affection for Sansa as well; why not? She is beautiful, well bred and mannered, kind hearted and honest. I think they would have had as good a shot at happiness together as any arranged marriage ever gets, and Sansa would have gotten a *family* to boot, something she once had and lost, and would have valued beyond measure. She would have had a sister in Marg, brothers in Loras and Garlan, goodfather and mother, and even the prickly old QoT to keep things from getting boring. I think she would have also loved the beauty of Highgarden, would have been safe there, and made it her home happily.

Of all the potential outcomes for Sansa's life, this one would have come closest to what she has always wanted. Sandor may make her heart race, but what else does he have to offer her? And I frankly don't care if the origina motivation for the idea was her claim to Winterfell. Claiming or gaining properties and strategic ties has always been the reason for arranged marriages. I honestly believe the Tyrells were doing their best to come up with a solution beneficial to everyone. Willas gets a charming wife, the Tyrells get allied with Winterfell, and Sansa is removed from what I think the Tyrells clearly perceived as a position of great danger to her. They know she is in danger from the Lannisters, and after plotting with LF, they may also realize that shhe stands in some danger from him as well.

I know there have been speculations that the Tyrells were happy to frame Sansa for Joff's murder, but that just makes no logical sense to me. Why even bother to make this proposal to Sansa if they plan to see her head on a spike shortly? And Marg/her cousins genuinely seem to befriend Sansa. It is not until she is married off to Tyrion, and they realize her friendship with them could cause unwelcome attention to be focused on her, that they back off.

I just wanted so badly to see Sansa's puppies and gardens dreams come true, I was bitterly disappointed with how the rug got yanked out from under her yet again. Willas was not her dream man but she was willing to give the marriage everything she had, and instead she gets stuck with a forced wedding to the Imp.

[Maroucia]

There’s something that I don’t get… Tell me if I’m wrong somewhere (which is probably the case).

Lady Olenna wanted Sansa to marry Willas, told her, then Sansa told Dontos and finally Dontos told Littlefinger… After that Littlefinger warned the Lannisters of the Tyrell’s plan, Sansa was then married to Tyrion in a hurry. At the same time, Littlefinger was plotting with Lady Olenna to kill Joffrey. So, our friend Petyr was using the Tyrells, the Lannisters and Dontos at the same time… :blink:

The Tyrells: Joffrey’s murder

The Lannisters: Keeping Sansa in place for him to pick latter

Dontos (conveniently disposable): lure Sansa into thinking he will help her go home

Am I missing something? Does it make sense?

Did anyone ever told you NOT to trust Petyr Baelish?

[Sid2]

There’s something that I don’t get… Tell me if I’m wrong somewhere (which is probably the case).

Lady Olenna wanted Sansa to marry Willas, told her, then Sansa told Dontos and finally Dontos told Littlefinger… After that Littlefinger warned the Lannisters of the Tyrell’s plan, Sansa was then married to Tyrion in a hurry. At the same time, Littlefinger was plotting with Lady Olenna to kill Joffrey. So, our friend Petyr was using the Tyrells, the Lannisters and Dontos at the same time… :blink:

The Tyrells: Joffrey’s murder

The Lannisters: Keeping Sansa in place for him to pick latter

Dontos (conveniently disposable): lure Sansa into thinking he will help her go home

Am I missing something? Does it make sense?

Did anyone ever told you NOT to trust Petyr Baelish?

It actually would make sense from their points of view IMO.

LF was brokering an arrangement with the Tyrells that would ultimately get Mace's grandchildren on the Iron Throne, (and made it clear that they didn't need or want the monstrous Joffrey for that). So there's no obvious reason for them to suspect him.

He was responsible for getting the Tyrell army to KL in time for them to help secure it for the Lanister rule. He then went to the Vale to wed Lysa Arryn and secure that area's allegiance. In addition, he clued them in when the Willas/Sansa plan became known to him. So there's no reason for the Lannisters to suspect him.

Was Dontos even aware of who exactly he was working for, or did he just communicate with the Kettleblack middleman? If not, he had no reason to suspect what eventually happened to him.

Overall, the members of the great houses constantly overlook him because he is not from a powerful established house. He's an up-jumped lord with an empty title that apparently does whatever they ask of him.

And, by the way, this thread has become my favorite reading on the forum. Keep up the great summaries and analysis!

[Raksha the Demon]

I am not sure why, but one of the most heartbreaking moments in the entire series for me is when the plan to send her to Highgarden to marry Willas is smashed by the Lannisters' preemptive strike. The Tyrells may be power hungry, but they are a FAMILY, that much is obvious. They stick together, are loyal and even affectionate towards each other, and far less dysfunctional than almost all the other families we have seen. Sansa, of course, indulges her romantic side when she pictures herself and Willas sitting around with children and puppies, but in this case I think her romantic visions could have actually come close to her reality. Willas is well spoken of by everyone who mentions him. He might not be the dashing knight, but I am willing to bet Sansa would have been able to bring herself to love him, both to satisfy her romantic nature, and also with her natural empathy which would have overlooked his leg.

Willas would probably have come to feel affection for Sansa as well; why not? She is beautiful, well bred and mannered, kind hearted and honest. I think they would have had as good a shot at happiness together as any arranged marriage ever gets, and Sansa would have gotten a *family* to boot, something she once had and lost, and would have valued beyond measure. She would have had a sister in Marg, brothers in Loras and Garlan, goodfather and mother, and even the prickly old QoT to keep things from getting boring. I think she would have also loved the beauty of Highgarden, would have been safe there, and made it her home happily.

Of all the potential outcomes for Sansa's life, this one would have come closest to what she has always wanted. Sandor may make her heart race, but what else does he have to offer her? And I frankly don't care if the origina motivation for the idea was her claim to Winterfell. Claiming or gaining properties and strategic ties has always been the reason for arranged marriages. I honestly believe the Tyrells were doing their best to come up with a solution beneficial to everyone. Willas gets a charming wife, the Tyrells get allied with Winterfell, and Sansa is removed from what I think the Tyrells clearly perceived as a position of great danger to her. They know she is in danger from the Lannisters, and after plotting with LF, they may also realize that shhe stands in some danger from him as well.

I know there have been speculations that the Tyrells were happy to frame Sansa for Joff's murder, but that just makes no logical sense to me. Why even bother to make this proposal to Sansa if they plan to see her head on a spike shortly? And Marg/her cousins genuinely seem to befriend Sansa. It is not until she is married off to Tyrion, and they realize her friendship with them could cause unwelcome attention to be focused on her, that they back off.

I just wanted so badly to see Sansa's puppies and gardens dreams come true, I was bitterly disappointed with how the rug got yanked out from under her yet again. Willas was not her dream man but she was willing to give the marriage everything she had, and instead she gets stuck with a forced wedding to the Imp.

:agree: To me, Willas sounded like the absolutely ideal bridegroom - kind, intelligent (corresponds with 'renaissance man' Oberyn Martell), loves animals and breeds dogs, heir to a rich domain, has an honorable leg injury that would prevent him from potentially lethal tournament forays. I also think that Sansa would have thrived in Highgarden; she would love the beauty and charm of the place, the richness, the chivalry, having puppies and children, a husband that at least would have respected her and a family that would have probably stuck up for.

The Sandor/Sansa relationship is riveting, but to be honest, I don't see any potential for Sansa's long-term happiness there. Sandor is too damaged an individual to make good husband material, not unless he does a practically 360-degree turnaround; I can see him dying nobly and bravely for Sansa but not making her happy for years as a good husband and father. If Willas is the man that his sister and grandmother say he is (and I don't think they lied, at least not completely), then he could at least give Sansa a good life. And love could blossom, it did between Sansa's parents.

I really, really wish we could see more of Willas. I discount Littlefinger's later disparagement of him as 'boring'; since LF doesn't want Sansa thinking of, dreaming of, or counting on any man other than him. Besides, Littlefinger might well think that anyone unwilling to cheat, lie and betray to further their own ends is boring...But why does Willas never seem to leave Highgarden, and why is the heir to one of the richest great houses in Westeros still unmarried in his mid-twenties? Could Willas have some problems or facets that his family prefers to keep hidden? Perhaps more than his leg was injured in that tourney and he can't sire children? Perhaps he's gay (and has been carrying on an affair with the Red Viper for years, which was why he forgave him for crippling him) or bisexual? Or he's a lecher who offends the bannermen because he can't keep his hands off their wives and daughters? Has a drinking problem? Or is a proponent of (gasp!) equal rights for women!

I'm still hoping that eventually Sansa might end up happily married to Willas, with puppies and healthy babies and becoming the beloved Lady of Highgarden. But I don't hope too hard, because this series isn't about happy endings, at least not happy endings for everybody.

The scene of Sansa with the Tyrell ladies is one of my favorites in the entire series; it is so well written. The sharpness of the Queen of Thorns, Sansa's fear and confusion and brave attempt to keep up her All-For-Joffrey facade only to finally lose it almost with relief and tell the truth, and the counterpoint of Butterbumps' singing The Bear and the Maiden Fair, really work well. Olenna and Margaery do a skillful bad cop/good cop number on Sansa; which does not reflect poorly on her, she's an isolated, friendless 12-year-old and these two are masters of manipulation. Again, we see how very much alone Sansa is; contrasted with the warm relationship of Margaery and her cousins and especially her wise and cunning grandmother. I did not think that Margaery was entirely faking her empathy and concern for Sansa; I think she genuinely pitied her and I think she did like her, but eventually dropped her as a friend out of political expedience (considering that Margaery was probably conspiring to murder her Lannister bridegroom-to-be, hanging out with his aunt-by-marriage might have been a bit dangerous anyway). They should have warned Sansa not to tell anyone about the betrothal to Willas.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I know there have been speculations that the Tyrells were happy to frame Sansa for Joff's murder, but that just makes no logical sense to me. Why even bother to make this proposal to Sansa if they plan to see her head on a spike shortly? And Marg/her cousins genuinely seem to befriend Sansa. It is not until she is married off to Tyrion, and they realize her friendship with them could cause unwelcome attention to be focused on her, that they back off.

thats also Why I think the tyrells didn't know the blame would fall on tyrion and Sansa

[Grail King]

thats also Why I think the tyrells didn't know the blame would fall on tyrion and Sansa

I think the QOT would knew there be a possibility of it, someone as old and wise and opinionated as her would have thought that out.

Also in Sansa 2 we will see the maturity of Sansa to the Tyrell cousins which I saw real telling of her starting to understand this world of hers could be as cold as ice.

While rereading a SOS did anyone noticed how many times Sansa's hair was adjusted? :)

[brashcandy]

I do think the meeting with the QOT was an important one for Sansa because of how the QOT assessed the likes of men like Renly and her own grandson Loras. Her emphasis that they are just men afterall - they might look pretty on a horse, or keep good habits - but that in the final analysis one must look for more, and value more, is something Sansa needs to keep in mind. Her tendency to idolize the "Loras type" is all fine and well as an innocent crush, but being able to recognize and appreciate more than showy antics in a husband is vital. Let's for a second assume that Loras wasn't gay and wasn't in the KG. Sansa is overjoyed to be getting her ultimate man - gorgeous and knightly- but of course, the problem remains that she only knows what she wants to see about Loras, the gallant knight, not Loras the man, with his own personality and problems. This is why their conversation was so awkward - you have Sansa trying desperately to impress him, and Loras responding with banal niceties. It's also interesting how she immediately recognizes that he didn't remember her at all from the tourney. Would the old Sansa of AGOT have been so perceptive?

And of course, there's a little irony in that the Hound was the one to call her out on the very same thing that she now recognizes Loras is doing: just parroting phrases without there being any meaning behind them. Contrast this with the relationship she's come to have with the Hound, and as this chapter makes clear: she knows him. She knows why he deserted the battle, she knows he can be rough and harsh but that he saved her when the crowd would have killed her. I've always posited that Sansa's romantic arc is not about finding her prince charming - lame or whole - ready done and waiting, neither will she be able to step right into a happily ever after. Love/romance is about taking time, and getting to know someone, and sometimes that works best when there's no pressure behind it. The Willas match was certainly a better option than the Tyrion match, but I'm still not a supporter of the idea of Sansa heading off on a blind marriage alliance, and god knows I hate to even think of agreeing with anything LF says, but maybe, just maybe, she would have indeed found Willas boring.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

After all she has had to endure, Sansa might well have welcomed boring and stable. lol

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I'm thinking Sansa may also be quite content to stay Alayne and live a nice quiet life OUTSIDE of the game.

Depending on how things go with the Lannisters and wars....Jaime is the KG commander now, after all, and may have the power to free Sandor of his empty KG duty plus clear his name of the Saltpans (Brienne knows it wasn't him)

Sandor may get Gregor's land and would have something to offer Sansa. I could see him becoming a kennelmaster and raising little furry hounds :)

He can take Ramsey's dogs :)

Willas....he may be all they say he is but as we are never introduced to him he may never come into play

[brashcandy]

After all she has had to endure, Sansa might well have welcomed boring and stable. lol

The quiet life I agree with; a boring husband, no :)

ETA: But I'm sure she would have really enjoyed the atmosphere at Highgarden.

[Fragile Bird]

OK, Crackpot Theory time.

I rarely disagree with brashcandy (trust me, it's plain old fear, I tremble at her wrath! :lol: ) but I don't see the Tyrells as Lannisters with roses.

Wait a second. I just read that again. They are Lannisters with roses, just not the same as the Lannisters, because there is no Tywin, no Tyrion, no equivalent of Jaime and Cersei, although Loras and Renly would have been had Renly lived, IMO. Which makes me really, really, really suspicious.

They are rich, have a huge army, and are placing their men in places of strategic importance. So who is making all these moves? Mace seems smart and able, but not that smart and not a very competent general. We've got Loras, out of the picture in the Kingsguard and now supposedly grievously injured ( :bs: ) Garlan, who I can only describe as as close to a true knight as we've seen in KL, and Mr. Mystery, Willas.

Now, Garlan and Loras have turned out extremely well in the looks and knightly talent department. While Loras doesn't read much, brother Garlan knows all about the volume Tyrion presented as a gift to Joffrey, which should raise eyebrows. Margaery is no dumb bunny. And Willas was reading to her as a child, and was obviously headed for the gallant knight department before his nasty accident.

So what do we know about him other than the injury and the puppies? He bears no grudge to the Viper, and in fact they communicate regularly. This is Westeros - that is suspicious. They are plotting, I'm sure. He's gentle and boring, but as Raksha the Demon says, that tag coming from LF may be more of a reflection of LF than Willas. He's not married - first he had to recover, and then, like Jaime, he had to carve out a role for himself when the role of great knight was taken away from him. He has stayed away from KL - why? Because he knows he'll be open to mockery? Being less than perfect is not a good thing in this world. To keep a low profile, out of sight, out of mind?

My theory - his is the hand that is guiding House Tyrell, with his father. He's not married, because the Tyrells have been looking for the right fit, and they see it in Sansa. While it is tempting to think someone who is kind and gentle and boring in Westeros must be brain damaged ( ;) ) resist that temptation! He's back in Highgarden, sharpening his chess moves, either to try to take the Iron Throne or to replace the Lannisters in the next Targ regime. The next Targ regime? Well, yes - he's communicating with Martells, and we know who they're backing.

Westeros has just had a major regime change, with the ouster of the Targaryens, and history has shown us 2 things can happen: a period of disruption, followed by a return to the previous regime (Charles l and Charles ll) or a period of disruption followed by a new regime being created (lots of examples). The Lannisters do not seem to have been able to establish themselves as the new regime, so they seem to be part of the period of disruption. The Tyrells could easily step in, or be part of the disruption, pledging fealty to what becomes the new regime.

Many of us really dream of SanSan, but if in fact the fates (yes, him, George) decry it, then we may be seeing the foundation of Willas - Sansa here. WilSan? SanWil?

And don't take Jaime - Sansa off the table yet. I have heard it said that the relationships between Stark and Lannister are so destroyed they will never be restored so many times my mind naturally turns towards it. And LF had that older man/younger woman speech (meaning himself of course) but it could foreshadow another May/December union. And finally, as Jaime tells his cousin Daven (and shades of LF!!!!) he found the older Tully girl intersting, but she was already engaged to some guy from up north. Wouldn't that be a bitch! Littlefinger dreams of Sansa, and Jaime and Sandor come riding into town, Sandor dies saving Sansa, and Jaime pledges himself to her.....on the orders of Stoneheart! :o

[brashcandy]

Fragile bird :fencing:

hehehehe :) Very interesting crackpot that I wouldn't discount at all. Wasn't he a potential suitor for Arianne Martell?

Jaime and Sansa :ack: No thanks, one Lannister is enough for one lifetime!

And I really have nothing against Willas, who may indeed be a fine chap. My argument is against Sansa finding love in this manner. I don't think it's her DesTUHneee :)

[Fragile Bird]

Fragile bird :fencing:

hehehehe :) Very interesting crackpot that I wouldn't discount at all. Wasn't he a potential suitor for Arianne Martell?

Jaime and Sansa :ack: No thanks, one Lannister is enough for one lifetime!

And I really have nothing against Willas, who may indeed be a fine chap. My argument is against Sansa finding love in this manner. I don't think it's her DesTUHneee :)

All the foreshadowing points to SanSa as far as I'm concerned. But if GRRM has taught me one thing, it's expect the unexpected!