HotU showed the Red Wedding ... or did it?

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

This is an old thread, but I just got a quote that I thought relevant to it.

In the yard, with a haunch of mutton. I told the kennelmaster to see that he was fed

That was Robb's answer to where Grey Wind is as they were entering the twins. Robb was easting faol but Grey wind had the lamb's or sheep's leg.

[Frey family reunion]

I think GRRM warns us in a Feast for crows about the misleading nature of prophecies:

"prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure and thin, how sweet, how fine, how good it is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy."

The question we have to ask is why would Dany have been shown a prophecy detailing the Red Wedding by the House of the Undying. If we can come up with a reason as to how the prophecy affects her journey, than I agree that is probably what it refers to. Absent that, I believe that these prophecies are going to detail an event that may not yet have happened in the books.

[J. Stargaryen]

I think GRRM warns us in a Feast for crows about the misleading nature of prophecies:

"prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure and thin, how sweet, how fine, how good it is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy."

The question we have to ask is why would Dany have been shown a prophecy detailing the Red Wedding by the House of the Undying. If we can come up with a reason as to how the prophecy affects her journey, than I agree that is probably what it refers to. Absent that, I believe that these prophecies are going to detail an event that may not yet have happened in the books.

How is this part specifically relevant to Dany?

In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

[bardstark]

i would say the lamb scepter is Robb's own innocence dying. why does it matter that the food doesn't match?

the crown, since it is iron, always to me was a conflation of Dany's mind's eye on the prophecy. she is thinking of IT.

this is dany's hallucination, so she will see odd aspects from her own perspective. these prophecies are never 100% accurate, and the HotU ain't that magikal.

Tho, i must admit, i never knew why Dany saw this prophecy, as she does not know of Robb Stark.

[Brienne Of Bombay]

i would say the lamb scepter is Robb's own innocence dying. why does it matter that the food doesn't match?

the crown, since it is iron, always to me was a conflation of Dany's mind's eye on the prophecy. she is thinking of IT.

this is dany's hallucination, so she will see odd aspects from her own perspective. these prophecies are never 100% accurate, and the HotU ain't that magikal.

Tho, i must admit, i never knew why Dany saw this prophecy, as she does not know of Robb Stark.

I guess it was just to emphasize that some of the things dany saw there will come true.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

I must say, I'm amazed at the assumption here that a vision Dany saw in the HOTU back in Book 2 must inevitably be fulfilled already. Could the Undying just not see very far into the future? :) There are some similarities to the Red Wedding, but saying that this must be a vision of the Red Wedding,Patchface's prophecy clearly depicts the Red Wedding, because its specific elements align perfectly with what happened in the Red Wedding.

The vision could be of the past or future. Dany's visions that were closely linked to her own life seemed to be more clear to me and the ones of the past more clear than the future. Mad King talking about burning the city, Aegon being born. The red door etc. etc. etc.

so far the RW is the closest thing we have that pertains to this( Is it not?). Something might happen in the future that fits better or we might get details of an event that happened in the past that fits better too. If not we're probably stuck with the idea that best fits the situation.

Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[A Song of Tyrion's member]

It obviously makes the most sense at first to connect Dany's visions in the house of the undying with the red wedding - an inference to the best explanation. With so much of the story left, and picking up on what someone else said early - that the red wedding seemed to be more of a political development that doesn't necessarily tie in with the big picture - how can we be sure that what Dany saw hasn't actually happened yet? Or maybe it won't happen. "Prophecy is like a treacherous woman".

After thinking about it the idea of Jon representing the man with the wolf's head and crown seemed appealing. Not sure if this has been mentioned before, and it probably has been, but Jon has always been the "Stark Bastard". Masked by Ned (if R+L=J is to be believed) Jon has always been seen as a (though bastardly) "Wolf". If one were to take Jon's targ/king's blood (crown) and his Stark false identity (sewn Wolf's head) then one could maybe propose this vision was about jon, not Robb (or not even Bran)?

[Frey family reunion]

How is this part specifically relevant to Dany?

It depends on what this vision means. If it means four kings fighting over Westeros (as some posters have theorized) then it relates to Dany to show little rat men fighting over and damaging Westeros which she is planning on retaking. It could also have to do with her mother's conception of her, considering the condition her mother was in after Aerys got done with her. Or it could relate to what people want from her, either to bed her, or to feed off her tit. As we see she has no end of suitors, and no end of people who consider her "mother" and expect her to feed and take care of them.

[Quiet Isle]

Honestly, I think tze's theory is simply missing the forest for the trees. The vision of the bloody feast does not have to be a literal depiction of the Red Wedding (certainly there are several other visions that are not entirely literal), and therefore the details do not have to be identical. All the essential broadstroaks are there, however: a king with the head of a wolf eating at a feast where he and his guests are slaughtered. The fact that some tiny details may differ does not negate the fact that the vision and the Red Wedding are remarkably similar.

Is the King "slaughtered"? or it it Jon having warged into Ghost, and slaughtered the enemies of the Starks? his "guests" indeed....

[J. Stargaryen]

It depends on what this vision means. If it means four kings fighting over Westeros (as some posters have theorized) then it relates to Dany to show little rat men fighting over and damaging Westeros which she is planning on retaking. It could also have to do with her mother's conception of her, considering the condition her mother was in after Aerys got done with her. Or it could relate to what people want from her, either to bed her, or to feed off her tit. As we see she has no end of suitors, and no end of people who consider her "mother" and expect her to feed and take care of them.

The representation of the WotFK interpretation segues quite nicely into the RW. Don't you think?

[Frey family reunion]

The representation of the WotFK interpretation segues quite nicely into the RW. Don't you think?

My problem with the Red Wedding, is I've never seen it as more than just one battle in the game of thrones squabbles, that will ultimately give way to a much larger conflict. Dany probably only has to concern herself with the winner of the squabble, yet this interpretation of the vision would focus on the loser of the Red Wedding, Robb Stark, whom Dany will never have any contact with. Now if the vision is using the events of the Red Wedding as a symbol of the larger conflict which has destroyed the Stark's dominion of the North, and part of Dany's destiny is to swoop in and help restore the Starks to their rightful place as Kings of the North, then I guess the vision could relate to the Red Wedding at least symbolically.

[J. Stargaryen]

My problem with the Red Wedding, is I've never seen it as more than just one battle in the game of thrones squabbles, that will ultimately give way to a much larger conflict. Dany probably only has to concern herself with the winner of the squabble, yet this interpretation of the vision would focus on the loser of the Red Wedding, Robb Stark, whom Dany will never have any contact with. Now if the vision is using the events of the Red Wedding as a symbol of the larger conflict which has destroyed the Stark's dominion of the North, and part of Dany's destiny is to swoop in and help restore the Starks to their rightful place as Kings of the North, then I guess the vision could relate to the Red Wedding at least symbolically.

My problem with this theory of this vision is that it treats the RW as a sort of psyche out - or red herring - for a bigger event. The RW was the climax of the WotFK so, again, the previous vision segues nicely into a vision of the RW.

[Frey family reunion]

My problem with this theory of this vision is that it treats the RW as a sort of psyche out - or red herring - for a bigger event. The RW was the climax of the WotFK so, again, the previous vision segues nicely into a vision of the RW.

Yet after the Red Wedding, the war wages on. Stannis is still contesting Tommen's rightful place on the crown, and Euron has taken up the war on Westeros after he has his brother killed.

[Kylol]

There was another time we had a vision/prophecy scene where a man with a wolfs head was there, and that was one of Melisandre's visions in ADWD. She seems to have interpreted that it was a servent of the other, but i think that's her religious bias. I think alot of people (including me) assumed this was a vision of bran and bloodraven, beyond the wall. Or, it could be jon since he warged into ghost (probably) as he was dieng, and the nights watch seems to be the only place they have wooden plates.. Also, melisandre kept seeing jon in her fires.. so maybe when she saw the man with the wolfs head it was also jon but she misinterpreted it?

[J. Stargaryen]

Yet after the Red Wedding, the war wages on. Stannis is still contesting Tommen's rightful place on the crown, and Euron has taken up the war on Westeros after he has his brother killed.

In what way does that contradict what I said?

[Starks Among Us]

Just to say I like this theory a lot. A bit of misdirection and assumptions being wrong makes for good reading.

Here's my rather poor contribution (I've really got to get work!): The hands that have been cut off are surely cold hands no?

I have to say, after reading this thread (most of it) and some others on the HotU vision and Red Wedding....If this vision is NOT of the RW, I totally see it being something to do with Bran or Jon/ the NW and the hands being cut off as the cold black hands that the wights get. I don't know HOW this would come to be, or why, but the "wolf looking in mute appeal" well, Ghost is mute and if Jon is dead or visiting the other side (no pun intended) for a short period of time, he could be mute as well.

As far as Bran being the one in the vision. Back way back in one of the first two books Jojen comes and tells Bran that he had a vision of a wolf bound down by chains, they assumed/interpretted (as did the reader) that it meant Bran needed to go to the 3EC to learn how to fly and that his chains was the inability to use his legs. I think that if the vision in HotU applies to Bran that the wolf bound down by chains and the wolf sitting in mute appeal on a throne could be related. I don't think that Bran's legs were the chains holding him down, I think it's going to be the wierwood roots (or something else) that will be holding him down. I don't think BR is trying to help Bran, just use him to meet his own ends. I think Bran could be sitting on a weirwood throne and looking in mute appeal because he cannot move/leave. As far as the dinner, I imagine whatever the CotF have as utensils must be plain jane, like wood. As far as the hands being cut off...perhaps the wights find a way into the cave (maybe the magic breaks).

ANYWAY to some up my ramble of thoughts: if the vision was NOT of the RW, I can easily see it being about Bran or Jon and having something to do with the wights and their dead hands.

[lady m]

<snip>

This is brilliant! I can totally see this happening, it happening would give a great excuse for Dany to get out of dodge. My only niggle is the wooden plates, which you brought up in some previous posts.

[drayrock]

Tze, who's one of the smartest, most thoughtful posters on here and to whom you should all pay attention, made an incredible observation about the vision of the Red Wedding that Dany sees in the House of the Undying. Namely, that it wasn't the Red Wedding that Dany saw.

Even if this isn't about the Red Wedding, the event was still foretold in other places, namely in Jinglebell's song ("Blood on the fool, blood on the king, blood on the maiden's thigh. But chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye, aye, aye") and by the Ghost of High Heart (Catelyn's death and resurrection and Grey Wind left outside to howl).

To make my own contribution ... in Judeo-Christian mythos, lambs are a symbol of purity and innocence. If this vision does indeed pertain to Bran, might the lamb-leg "scepter" be a symbol of him losing his innocence on his path to being a greenseer? I know several posters subscribe to the idea that Bloodraven's/the Children's motives aren't 100% pure.

I mean it could just be a prophecy with multiple meanings. The king with a wolfshead lines up to well for it not to be robb. Even when I read it for the first time I was like fuck....robb's a goner. And bran isn't a king. and the undying don't know everything details could be off. It could be just a prediction that the king of the north and his homies were predicted to die. Could also mean something about the others taking the north as they are specifically called undead...not just dead bodies. I imagine it could be mulitple things in one.

[Michael Snow]

The scenes may not be identical, but they are a lot more alike than they are dissimilar.

[Frey family reunion]

The scenes may not be identical, but they are a lot more alike than they are dissimilar.

My probelm is that the vision is too alike with the events of the red wedding. The prophectic visions seem to be more symbolic than literal. One theory I'm growing more comfortable with is the First men and the lhazareen (the lamb people) are descended from the same ancestors. Could the lamb scepter be a clue to Dany that she is looking at the king of the First men (the only examples of which she met are the Lhazareen)?