HotU showed the Red Wedding ... or did it?

[Schmendrick]

Part 4 of 4

THE VISION'S MEANING

I think Dany is seeing a vision of the champion (for now, anyway) of Team Ice. If Dany is the champion (for now, anyway) of Team Fire, she is seeing her counterpart (and maybe enemy). This makes the vision far more relevant to Dany than if it were just about the Red Wedding. It’s also worth considering that Martin wrote in a bunch of glaring parallels between Dany’s HotU chapter and Bran’s last chapter in ADwD (the most obvious being the strikingly similar descriptions of Dany drinking Shade of the Evening and Bran eating weirwood paste, but there are plenty more). These parallels must mean something. If Dany is to Team Fire whatever Bran is to Team Ice, the parallels suddenly make sense. Consider the very first thing the Undying tell Dany about the visions she saw:

“What did [the visions] mean?”

… the shape of shadows … morrows not yet made … drink from the cup of ice … drink from the cup of fire …

I think that Bran is either the cup of ice or (more likely) Dany’s potential future link to it (whatever it is). That is the importance of this vision for Dany. Considering the vision’s connections to Revelations, this has some pretty ominous additional connotations for us readers:

…. [T]he cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

There are tons of connections between Revelations’ depiction of Babylon – especially its personification as a “queen” riding on a “scarlet beast” who is described as “The Mother … of the Abominations of the Earth” and Dany (a queen who rides Drogon and is called the Mother of Dragons). The Babylonian Queen is described as “[holding] a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things ….” This, of course, is the cup of God’s wrath. It contains all manner of horrible end-timey things to punish the wicked.

If Dany drinks from the cup(s), is she calling down a new Doom? The quick and fiery destruction of Babylon in Revelations – so similar to the Doom of Old Valyria – is even called “Babylon’s Doom.” Are Bran and Dany inadvertently working towards separate Apocalypses? One of Ice (the Long Night) and one of Fire (Doom 2.0)? Or do both cups lead to one grand apocalypse? Or is Martin just playing with us by referencing all of the Revelations stuff? Who knows ….

ADDITIONAL MEANINGS FOR READERS

The vision also contains hints (for the reader, not Dany) of some of the challenges and dangers related to the ice side of things – famine caused by the long winter and reanimated corpses (see below for more on this).

There are five feasts here, all interwoven. The vision most literally depicts Bran’s harvest feast, but it also evokes (and hazily foretells) the Red Wedding feast. That’s as far as the in-world information goes, but there’s more for us readers. The vision evokes another wedding feast as well – in Revelations, the lamb on the throne on the dais presides over his own wedding feast. We are told that his bride (in bright white garments provided by god) is the shining city of New Jerusalem (which has jasper – red – walls), where the righteous few will dwell forever with their god. This reminds me of the white weirwood (with red sap) that Bran is to “wed” in ADwD:

“The singers believe [weirwoods] are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood.”

The vision, then, partly foretells Bran being groomed to dwell forever with his weirwood god-bride.

Revelations also ties directly into the harvest theme. The Book describes the “reaping of the earth’s harvest” and the “reaping of the grapes of wrath” as metaphors for god’s judgment. In the same vein, Revelations also features a second feast, the “great supper of god,” in which “all the birds” will “eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” This feast occurs after the “beast” and the “false prophet” and their armies of men are defeated by the forces of god. The carrion birds will then proceed to feast on the dead. It’s a literal “Feast for Crows.” Thus, the vision also seems to foretell the massive-scale war and death that the North (and likely all of Westeros) is poised to suffer.

And then there’s the famous Gwledd Bran – the “Feast of Bran” the Blessed. Bran means “crow” (or “raven,” depending on the translator) in Welsh, so Gwledd Bran literally means Feast of Crow/Raven (and is sometimes translated that way). The Gwledd Bran was a feast thrown in Bran’s honor to commemorate a truce between the Irish and the Welsh. At the feast, hostilities broke out after Bran’s wild and uncontrollable half-brother killed the Irish king’s child. This led to an incredibly bloody battle in which the Irish repeatedly brought their dead warriors back to life using a magical cauldron Bran had given the Irish king. The Welsh won the battle after his half-brother sacrificed himself to destroy the cauldron, but Bran was mortally wounded. This led to his head being removed and eventually buried in Britain to watch over his people. The harvest feast is where Bran first meets the Reeds, who will lead him on his journey to become a Greenseer. I described the parallels between the two Bran’s respective supernatural underground vigils above. Bran the Blessed’s death at this feast is said to have caused years of poor harvests for his people, thus adding to the harvest motif. So, the vision also seems to foretell Bran’s journey and potential future, as well as the large-scale famine that Martin keeps hinting at, once the long winter comes.

I also have to wonder about the other translation of Gwledd Bran. Could Dany be mistaken about what kind of bird is being eaten? She would naturally assume fowl, but could it be (Three-Eyed) crow or (Blood-) raven? Might the vision foretell Bran ultimately becoming the “Last Greenseer” after Bloodraven passes the torch (maybe even Bloodraven paste)? There is another, darker, possibility here. But I think that is the subject for another thread.

[Schmendrick]

Thanks for replying, J. Stargaryen. I don't know if you had a chance to read the rest of what I posted (I know it was broken up over multiple posts and not all posted at the same time), but I completely agree with you that the Red Wedding is part of what the vision is depicting (I think I used the word "evoked"). I just think that there is a whole lot more going on, too.

[J. Stargaryen]

Thanks for replying, J. Stargaryen. I don't know if you had a chance to read the rest of what I posted (I know it was broken up over multiple posts and not all posted at the same time), but I completely agree with you that the Red Wedding is part of what the vision is depicting (I think I used the word "evoked"). I just think that there is a whole lot more going on, too.

I did. It's a good, interesting read. Lots to think about.

Also, apologies for replying in the middle of your posts. I thought you were done.

[Schmendrick]

I did. It's a good, interesting read. Lots to think about.

Also, apologies for replying in the middle of your posts. I thought you were done.

No need to apologize! I would have preferred to put everything in one post, but copy/pasting everything from Word was causing all sorts of formatting issues, so I broke it up to make everything easier to fix. I made a few small edits to my posts that will hopefully make them easier to follow.

For the record, I think a lot of the skeptics in this thread make excellent points, yourself included. There's no question that the RW is part of the vision. But I also think there's strong evidence that Bran's harvest feast is a big part of the vision as well (and that the Bran elements are more likely to be important where Dany is concerned).

[Kyoshi]

Thank you very much for this topic! I also don't believe that Dany's vision was that of the Red Wedding. I've stated this elsewhere. It just doesn't add up. I know Robb was an important character but my thinking is that Robb was not more important than Renly, Balon and Joffrey. It doesn't make sense to show his death and not the others. The other thing that got me was the mute appeal made by the "king" in Dany's vision. One of the most prominent aspects of the Red Wedding was the horrible music, as noted by Arya, the Hound, the Ghost of High Heart and Catelyn. The lack of discarded musical instruments beside the slaughtered guests rankles my brain. I'm glad I finally found a thread that agrees with me.

[Muggle]

This is a very nice thread. Those interested in this thread. Should also take a look at this one.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/112729-a-feast-for-the-dead-a-snow-in-the-tombs-a-dream-in-dust/

[Rattleshirt's Ghost]

The explanation for the discrepancies is simple: Dany's vision isn't of the Red Wedding; it's of a theatrical reenactment of the RW, one for which they couldn't afford a good crown as a prop.

[Kyoshi]

The explanation for the discrepancies is simple: Dany's vision isn't of the Red Wedding; it's of a theatrical reenactment of the RW, one for which they couldn't afford a good crown as a prop.

I think you just made my day. Thanks for the laugh.

[Brian Boru Brightflame]

i wish i could get into the posters fond of citing the bible or western literature in aSoIaF theories/ analysis.

[Skythe1]

Wow this was a great read. I'm going full on crackpot here... What if the King presiding over the feast is (f)Aegon? He has a wolfs head, and is holding a sceptre of lamb... Wolf in sheeps clothing anyone?

[Kyoshi]

Wow this was a great read. I'm going full on crackpot here... What if the King presiding over the feast is (f)Aegon? He has a wolfs head, and is holding a sceptre of lamb... Wolf in sheeps clothing anyone?

I'm caught between Jon and Bran. Bran because Schmendrick convinced me. Jon because of the mute appeal (Ghost). You should also check R+L=Lightbringer, I get the feeling you'll enjoy it.

[Lord Martin]

I am now of the opinion that Dany's vision is intentionally multi-layered. It certainly foreshadows the Red Wedding much like the Ghost of High Heart's dream foreshadows the Red Wedding. But that doesn't mean its the only purpose it can serve.

Dany has had visions of wolves before, in AGOT:

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

The shapes are dancing, almost as if at a feast. So I wonder if one import of her vision at the HOTU is a continuation of this fever dream.

Moreoever, GRRM often uses feasts in direct connection with death. For instance, in the post tagged above, it refers to both Theon and Jon Snow having dreams about the dead at a feast. Theon from within the dining hall, Jon Snow from the crypts. Also, TPATQ spoiler here

During the dance of the dragons, the Blacks would pose corpses in a mock feast along the Greens' line of march. In one instance they used this as a decoy using live men instead of corpses. When the greens came to see the feast of corpses, the "dead" men attacked.

Patchface also speaks of feasts "under the sea" which some believe means in the realms of the dead and at one point says, "In the dark the dead are dancing."

This could also be extended to the wedding feast between Alys Karstark and Sigorn. Jon Snow brokered the marriage. He is a wolf and perhaps a king. His wolf, Ghost, is a mute. The first courts at the feast:

The stewards began to bring out the first dish, an onion broth flavored with bits of goat and carrot.

Is goat close enough to lamb?

And we get the bread missing from the RW:

With the broth came loaves of coarse brown bread, warm from the oven. Salt and butter sat upon the tables.

[Mithras]

The mute appeal means that the king with the wolf’s head wants/expects something from Dany but can’t voice it. What is that?

If we are talking about Bran the Blessed, is Dany supposed to play the part of Efnysien? He sacrificed himself to destroy the magic cauldron to stop the Irish reviving their dead.

If so, Dany is supposed to make a sacrifice to stop the Others reviving their dead so that they can be defeated.

Also Efnysien is an anti-hero and much of the quarrel is his own doing. Dany might evolve into such a character before the series end.

[ViennaGirl]

I love this thread, and I agree maybe the vision isn't the RW after reading this. I think it might be some future event carried out in Jon's name - Jon is the dead, mute leader with the wolf's head. Maybe after Jon is stabbed, some of the northerners at the Wall go to Winterfell and take revenge on the Boltons and Freys, and it happens during a feast.

[The Mother of The Others]

we see Robb's crown again twice in Feast. When Jamie meets Ser Ryman Frey's queen of whores, she is wearing Robb's crown - "On her head a circlet of hammered bronze sat askew, graven with runes and ringed with small black swords." And when Brienne meets Lady Stoneheart - "In her hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords." this information that shows Robb's crown did not end up on Grey Wind's head.

Whoa. So Catelyn is sorta set up to crown someone. I've seen theories on here about her reviving Jon and naming him North King, and I've dismissed it. But she's got a crown.

(I don't remember how Greywind was disposed of, but isn't it possible the real crown was stapled to his head for one of those limited time only displays and then removed afterward and passed around once the wolf started to smell too badly.)

Patchfaces little jingle: "When the fool saw Davos he jerked to a sudden halt, the bells on his antlered helmet going ting-a-ling. Hopping from one foot the the other he sang: "Fool's blood, King's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye". Everyone has assumed that this prophecy portends the Red Wedding. I contend that it does not.

I still think it's a redwedding reference. It fits so well as a RW summary, covering both Walder's motive for the red wedding and the events thereof. Making it a future reference is more of a stretch: Daenerys as bloody-thighed maid seems a bit of a "What?" whereas Robb's wife was a maiden and Robb was foolish. "Chains for the guests," instead of "death," is the only thing that halfway qualifies as a poor fit that might point to something other than RW. --> Actually, it's Davos who ends up in chains every other week as part of this lifestyle he's "chosen," so Patch's talk of chaining may apply directly to Davos instead of the RW guests he's alluding to. Here's how I'm seeing this: Davos walks in; Patch picks up on how Davos is being sent on "foolish" errands related to Stannis' claim to the throne. Patch essentially tells Davos: "Ha, we know how these king's blood things turn out, don't we? Red Wedding. That's the kind of end you can count on too, for your fool's errand of trying to make Stannis king." This counts as a warning from Patchface that Stan's bunch is treading on thin ice. (Literally and figuratively, as of ADWD).

Maybe Bran is the lamb for slaughter. Certainly Bran and Bloodravens eyes could follow a person... and remember a severed hand was sent to KL in "appeal" for more men for the NW... maybe it means they will appeal to Dany for help against the Others. Maybe it's a combination of an appeal for Dany to leave Westeros alone so someone else can take care of it... the dead could represent the East slaves if she abandons them.

Maybe it's best to not put that vision under a microscope but back away and view it in a more generalized way: it may have been intended as a Westerosi State of the Nation Address to Dany's mind from the minds of the undying farseers. The North is consuming itself (the feast), the wolf represents House Stark and the sad state of affairs it's in--immobilized and "dead" as far as the world knows, unable to tend to its festering problems. The "mute appeal" is of personal relevance to her; it's for her to notice subconsciously that something may need doing up North and she may have to fly there to get it done. When she learns what the real problem is (walkers) this subconscious trigger may go off, causing her enough concern and curiosity to go there and prevent the north's Feast for Crows from turning into A Feast for Others.

[Ser-Hodor]

Maybe tinfoil, but the wolfs head could be Bran (warging) in another persins head during another wedding

[Ali Colak]

Something that no one has mentioned…

Where are the killers? Where are the victors over this slaughter?

It may be nothing more than a coincidence,

But I think there rather conspicuous absence is significant. One interpretation could be that this points to the fact that –though the Freys and Lannisters originally saw the RW as the end of the matter—it has been the cause of many Frey deaths and may be the cause of the RW 2.0.

As for the crown; Iron can symbolize strength, but it could also symbolize compulsion, force a heavy weight or perhaps duty. Robb wasn’t at that wedding to enjoy himself, he was there because of duty, because the political climate necessitated that he be there.

As to its significance…

1: The death of a major lord in the land which Dany wishes to rule is certainly significant,

2: This is the song of Ice and Fire, not stag and kraken or lion and rose. The most significant ice for Dany might be Jon, but at the time, Robb was the head of ice.

3: It has and will bring about a whole other cycle of violence, as stated above,

4: Its done quite a bit to change to political climate in the riverlands and the north, including giving Stannis a chance at grabbing the North for his own side.

The deaths of Balon and Joffrey weren’t insignificant, but things continued pretty much as they had after their deaths, with some changes in leadership and strategy. The deaths of Robb and arguably Renley are the only two deaths that brought about a major shift in political alliances and other changes in the political landscape, so far at least.

[Ran]

People are being weird about the prophecies. I can only put it down to the span of time between books, that people start digging deeper and deeper and begin to convince themselves that there's "more" to it than what's obviously there.

The dead wolf king vision is obviously about the Red Wedding. Patchface's song, too. Simple enough.

I also wish people would stop digging into mythic stuff, or biblical matter, to try and "decode" the narrative. I think one can see that these things (especially the latter) have pretty much nothing to do with GRRM's writing if you look across the whole body of his work. He's not a "Hero with a Thousand Faces" kind of guy. He's likelier to draw from actual history or other works of the fantastic (e.g. Lovecraft) than he is from myth or the Bible, and while he does reference myths at times it's fairly haphazard and generally for superficial detail.

Clear away the cruft and it'd be easier to actually discuss these things. So many potentially interesting discussions are overwhelmed by people bringing in masses of unrelated texts with no real evidence for their relevance beyond the fact that people want them to be relevant.

[lysmonger]

People are being weird about the prophecies. I can only put it down to the span of time between books, that people start digging deeper and deeper and begin to convince themselves that there's "more" to it than what's obviously there.The dead wolf king vision is obviously about the Red Wedding. Patchface's song, too. Simple enough.I also wish people would stop digging into mythic stuff, or biblical matter, to try and "decode" the narrative. I think one can see that these things (especially the latter) have pretty much nothing to do with GRRM's writing if you look across the whole body of his work. He's not a "Hero with a Thousand Faces" kind of guy. He's likelier to draw from actual history or other works of the fantastic (e.g. Lovecraft) than he is from myth or the Bible, and while he does reference myths at times it's fairly haphazard and generally for superficial detail.Clear away the cruft and it'd be easier to actually discuss these things. So many potentially interesting discussions are overwhelmed by people bringing in masses of unrelated texts with no real evidence for their relevance beyond the fact that people want them to be relevant.

Ran destroys thread.

I'm pretty sure GRRM would rather troll biblical mythos and the "hero with a thousand faces" idea.

[The Prince Not Promised]

What I don't understand is why the wolf-headed king looks to Dany in mute appeal. Robb isn't even aware of her existence to the best of my knowledge, so perhaps it shows Dany will be in a position to bring justice down upon the Freys? My guess is along with what some others have said on this thread; that the vision applies to a future slaughter where Robb's specter looms over the wedding in revenge.