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Howdyphillip

[BOOK SPOPILERS] Craster Cliffhanger

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Craster also marries his daughters to have more daughters. If that doesn't bug him, conflicting allegiances won't either.

Lol, true. But I meant more about what the conflicting allegiances mean for those he's allied with. Surely the WW know about Craster's status with the NW just as the NW knows about Craster's status with the WW. These seem to be opposing forces, enemies almost. Does this make Craster a turncloak? If so, it would seem that at least one of these opposing groups would want to punish Craster. Of course, him dying by the NW hand could be punishment of a sort.

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His communications with Wildlings make him important to the NW and his dealings with the NW make him important to the WW, that and whatever they do with his sons. The WW seem quite aloof from politics- they just march around, do their thing, and they really don't care who they kill or who it is that they're killing. The way it's described in the book prologue it is as if they're hunting those three NW men for sport, because about five or six surround the disarmed knight and butcher him for no reason. And technically speaking as a member of the "Free Folk" Craster doesn't have a cloak, just his word, which as we've seen is pretty worthless.

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I really liked the Craster scene at the end of the episode. Possibly the only change I am liking. It makes it much more scary than when you just hear that Craster may be giving his sons to the Others.

I find it funny how I read great reviews of the beginning of this season, but I have mostly hated it (cause of what they are doing with LF, Ros, and other changes).

EDIT: Also, why did they not just make Dany start in Qarth? They could have cut her til episode 2, starting in Qarth, and have Jorah and her talk about the horrors they faced in the Red Waste to substitute a narrative. This would allow the writers to keep their whore-fetish and still give us a better Dragonstone, which I HATED. I had three non-reader friends text me after the premiere asking who Davos and "the red woman" are. They did not introduce the story of Mel and R'hllor well at all IMO. And no Patchface? Dragonstone was just a scene, not a creepy place where you can see a major facet of the plot is rising.

His communications with Wildlings make him important to the NW and his dealings with the NW make him important to the WW, that and whatever they do with his sons. The WW seem quite aloof from politics- they just march around, do their thing, and they really don't care who they kill or who it is that they're killing. The way it's described in the book prologue it is as if they're hunting those three NW men for sport, because about five or six surround the disarmed knight and butcher him for no reason.

You may want to read a thread I started that gives the Others the credit they deserve as being a more intelligent being (former humans and CotF to be specific): http://asoiaf.wester...__fromsearch__1

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Oh I don't doubt that the Others are intelligent, I just doubt that they care about Westerosi politics. When you're as powerful as they are and can hunt down a human with impunity, why even bother? The only humans they want to know about would be the NW, because they are their immeadiate opponents and because they've been beaten by them in the past. Other than them, I think the WW view humans as cattle at best, more likely as vermin, and at worst as a blight on the planet. We don't know enough about either the WW or the COTF to speculate about their motives at the moment, but I think it's pretty safe to say that the WW don't have Westeros' best intentions at heart [Or maybe they do- it would be just like GRRM to confuse us right to the end]. Perhaps the show will fill the void of non-information on the WW and the COTF- I certainly hope so; being shrouded in mystery is fine and all but if we're going to save the world from something I want to know what the hell we're up against!

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Am I the only one slightly annoyed that the white walkers we've seen so far are all black as pitch and look like Uruk-hai instead of, you know, milky pale and ethereal creatures? :D

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For those who didn't like the scene because they don't feel that Craster should be able to sneak up on Jon you have got to take into consideration that Jon just witnessed a fucking monster and of course he'll be a bit sluggish and dazed as a result of witnessing some sort of snow demon carrying away a baby.

I like the fact that the show surprised me, I'm thinking Quorin will intervene. I hope they don't do away with Craster just yet.

The White Walkers are actually pale white/blue, they come off as looking black as pitch because they are usually concealed in darkness.

oh and I think it is a shit move to spoil something that does not happen in this book but in a later instalment in OP post. I've read them all so it does not really matter to me, but I can see how someone might assume that the BOOK SPOILERS tag simply means spoilers for CoK.

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This thread is such a great example of "so-called reader" purist outrage. Let me cite examples:

1) Renly + Loras ....Outrage - then oh, they are gay?

2) Stannis having Sex with Melisandre ... Outrage, before evidence pointed out. Still in denial.

3) Craster having a 'deal' with the Others ... Well, you get the picture.

4) Yara not being HOT! ...See the Yara thread in this sub-forum

Sure, none of these are stated outright. But if you cannot see how these are reasonable interpretations, then a re-read is recommended. The really sad part of this is how many of the purist nitpickers that don't know the books half as well as they think they do.

I can't wait to find out what the next outrage will be.

What? Most of the "outrage" has been about presentation, not the existence, of these things. yes, there have been folks that did not pick up on them in the books, however most of the debate about them has been the hamfisted way they have been shown.

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So, let me get this straight...

We're angry because the writers dared to show something and not tell it, preferably as someone is mid-colitis?

Or because Craster wasn't doing this in the book? (he was)

Or because the NW would never condone it (they did in the book as a necessary evil)

Or because Craster, walking in the woods he's walked in for forty plus years, snuck up on castle bred pretty boy who was getting his first look at a giant WW?

Or because it wasn't obvious it was a WW?

Or because it was too quickly shown it was a WW?

Or because this minor divergence will necessarily cause a humongous divergence even tho it's entirely possible they just get kicked out of Crasters, no one dies and the story continues on pretty much as the book?

Which overreaction is it?

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So, let me get this straight...

We're angry because the writers dared to show something and not tell it, preferably as someone is mid-colitis?

Or because Craster wasn't doing this in the book? (he was)

Or because the NW would never condone it (they did in the book as a necessary evil)

Or because Craster, walking in the woods he's walked in for forty plus years, snuck up on castle bred pretty boy who was getting his first look at a giant WW?

Or because it wasn't obvious it was a WW?

Or because it was too quickly shown it was a WW?

Or because this minor divergence will necessarily cause a humongous divergence even tho it's entirely possible they just get kicked out of Crasters, no one dies and the story continues on pretty much as the book?

Which overreaction is it?

I was more overreacting because of not knowing who's baby it was. Gilly doesn't mention any other pregnant girl who may be carrying a boy at Craster's Keep and considering which is odd considering these are her (grand?)mothers, sisters, and aunts. Plus we all love the books and we love the way they are told so deviating from the story makes us feel funny things. There's no telling how this cliffhanger will play out. Will the battle at Craster's happen before the Fist? Will they even go to the Fist or just have all of the NW stuff play out there while Jon heads off with the Halfhand. It's fun to discuss these things and also share complain with others who understand how connected we are with this series.

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I just don't like that this scene, along with many others in just two episodes, it might have a horrible butterfly effect for the future story.

It really seems like they have made more down right changes in these two episodes, than they did for all of season one. Which is fine when they have to make changes for bugetory reasons, but most of them do not seem bugetory at all. That's what's weird for me, because in interviews GRRM has said repeatedly that he believes, if your going to make a book into a show, you should stay as faithful to the story as possible, and if you can't do that, then don't make the adaptation. I really thought D&D understood that, and in season one I though they were really respecting GRRM by staying faithful to the book. Yet now in season two, it seems like they are changing so much, and some of it may seem small now, but a lot of these changes will cause the butterfly effect for the future story, so I hate to imagine how different it will be in a few seasons. The show will always make some changes, but because of things they are doing now, it will cause them to change even more things in the future, it's just not a fun thought.

I just personally see it the way GRRM does, either stay true to the book, or make up your own story. Unfortunately GRRM did not make them agree to keep everything the same, so he has no control over the changes that they make, but he did express that it was his wish that they try to stay faithful as best as they could(unless for bugetory reasons), when he agreed to let them do the show. I just thought that because D&D are huge fans of aSoIaF, that they would continue staying pretty faithful, like season one, but obviously something has changed.

I really don't agree with the show taking out important things from the books, only to then add so many pointless made up scenes in the show(Ros crying to LF anyone?)

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Although initially I felt a bit like "WTF?!", I'm really looking forward to where they're going to go with it. I find it's a nice surprise that there are such differences from the books, as long as they're still overall in line with the main plot.

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^^

i agree with you about the LF and Ros scene. I liked what it showed about LF, but i HATE Ros so i didnt like it. Mean I know. But i liked the Craster scene. What do you mean huge divergence? This was a complicated episode, they have to tailor the series for non readers too, so they put a cliffhanger in for their benefit. It may anger us, but Im sure non book watchers were enthralled. How else were they supposed to imply that WW took the babies? Gilly says some lines? That may be good in a book when all your looking at IS lines, but for a visual medium they need to actually SHOW it. As for repucussions, I just dont see them. There will be some conflict Im sure between Craster and NW but nobody important is going to perish. Maybe Craster will die now and Ill be fine with that because really, the NW betrayel can happen anywhere, Mormonts death can happen anywhere, and what the actor of Crastor is going to be gone a whole season then come back for one episode next season, ro maybe even the FOURTH season. Get ahold of yourself man things are going to change as the story complicates and as long as they keep to the general plot and spirit of the novels I will be happy. And so should you

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I was more overreacting because of not knowing who's baby it was. Gilly doesn't mention any other pregnant girl who may be carrying a boy at Craster's Keep and considering which is odd considering these are her (grand?)mothers, sisters, and aunts. Plus we all love the books and we love the way they are told so deviating from the story makes us feel funny things. There's no telling how this cliffhanger will play out. Will the battle at Craster's happen before the Fist? Will they even go to the Fist or just have all of the NW stuff play out there while Jon heads off with the Halfhand. It's fun to discuss these things and also share complain with others who understand how connected we are with this series.

It's obviously not Gilly's baby. She wasn't showing, or anywhere near giving birth. And they would have shown her giving birth. I imagine in writing or editing they do have something that's like "Jenny just had her baby..." but thought it was unnecessary / would take too much time when there's barely enough to show important things.

I love the books. I will be severely disappointed if there is a real deviation that kills a favorite scene (like say, if Jon does not face off versus the Halfhand or if he does so, but it's not for similar dynamics as in the books). But why panic over it? Why not enjoy the ride? If, as you say, you LIKE discussing it, why not rationally discuss it instead of what's going on here.

What's more likely: Craster knocks out Jon, kicks out Mormont & crew and the story continues more or less as planned, with perhaps the exception of the mutiny not being at Craster's, though it certainly could be (the Watch could buy or force their way back in).

Or: Jon's knocked out, and Craster gets angry. Even though Mormont has known that Craster was sacrificing his children all this time, THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY HE CAN ACCEPT THIS NOW THAT JON KNOWS so Craster must die now. Even though if this happened, as Morky Pep points out, the rest of the storyline could STILL occur more or less as usual, NO, JON MUST BE SEPARATED NOW FOR HIS BAD DEEDS, and even if that's true, he still could be sent on the same mission to prove himself, BUT NO WE MUST HAVE THE BATTLE NOW AND JON MUST BE CAPTURED EVEN THOUGH WE'VE SEEN PREVIEWS THAT LOOK A LOT LIKE JON AND QUORIN'S TRIP TO THE FROSTFANGS. THE STORY IS RUINED!

Look, instead of just saying "He gives his babies to the Cold" they showed it, for more impact and to actually have some action at the end of the episode, which is nice, since there was no real (violent) action all episode. You need some kind of climatic end to an episode, whether emotional or physical. This will probably be the worst ending in the entire season, but it's still better that Gilly saying "He gives them to the Cold."

I have no doubt there are going to be lots of changes -- perhaps even some of the panic above will even come true. But (a) it hasn't yet and (B) it's not necessarily a bad thing. Who cares if the NW rebellion happens at Craster's? Who cares if there's even a rebellion. I *like* that little storyline, and I like the thematic -- what the WW couldn't finish, insquabbling will -- but if the NW just gets crushed at the Fist by the wights and WW, then the story still is intact. And maybe we get more battle at the Fist.

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This seems more like a venting thread for the other horrible changes they've made. This change was minor and keeps all characters true--unlike LF, Dany, now Varys (making threats? no, he would smile and befriend as he plotted his betrayal).

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I've watched the first season of Game of Thrones so many times that I never once questioned it being a White Walker because you clearly hear it before you see it. In season one, episode one, whilr Will is running from the Other, you hear the same sounds. Its likelihood clacking ice cubes and a weird rattling sound. The Others don't look like what I pictured from the books, but I think it would have been maybe more difficult to make a being that looks like its made from ice. I really like the blue eye flashing because Jon will remember that from the wight.

The scene didn't bother me. I really like how they are clearly answering things we could only guess at like the sacrifice of the sons. I am not sure how they will play it now. Maybe Craster just throws them all out and they still come back like in Storm of Swords. It would make even more sense for Sam to save Gilly then because Jon will tell him what happens to the sons so he wouldnt be able to turn Gilly down when she's standing there with a newborn boy. I think it will help the tv audience understand why Sam has to take Gilly.

I agree that Ghost would have ripped Craster's throat out before he even made a step towards Jon, but I think CGI expense will limit the on screen time for our beloved direwolves.

I can't wait to see how they pick this up next week!

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"i can still run if i have to" - Gilly

This one line shows the baby is not in fact gillys. More then likely it is a baby that had already been born, and was awaiting a specific time to be handed off.

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I've watched the first season of Game of Thrones so many times that I never once questioned it being a White Walker because you clearly hear it before you see it. In season one, episode one, whilr Will is running from the Other, you hear the same sounds. Its likelihood clacking ice cubes and a weird rattling sound. The Others don't look like what I pictured from the books, but I think it would have been maybe more difficult to make a being that looks like its made from ice. I really like the blue eye flashing because Jon will remember that from the wight.

The scene didn't bother me. I really like how they are clearly answering things we could only guess at like the sacrifice of the sons. I am not sure how they will play it now. Maybe Craster just throws them all out and they still come back like in Storm of Swords. It would make even more sense for Sam to save Gilly then because Jon will tell him what happens to the sons so he wouldnt be able to turn Gilly down when she's standing there with a newborn boy. I think it will help the tv audience understand why Sam has to take Gilly.

I agree that Ghost would have ripped Craster's throat out before he even made a step towards Jon, but I think CGI expense will limit the on screen time for our beloved direwolves.

I can't wait to see how they pick this up next week!

Perfectly said.

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Firstly, Craster should have been more rugged and rough-looking. Secondly, the cliffhanger was slightly unnecessary because 1. It never happened in the books and 2. It was cliche by Game of Thrones standards.

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