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Was Margeary Tyrell this politically savvy in the books? I though she was a little more innocent but in the series she is pretty damn straight forward and intelligent. I know she has a wicked good conniving grandma but I never got the impression she was in on the Tyrell plotting. Is she going to become Joff's poisoner?

This episode probably deviated the most from the books so far and I wonder if that won't be a continuing trend.

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I think they handled the Arya situation the best that they could with the time constraints. It just makes me sad that we're not going to see Lommy try to yield to everyone all over the 7 kingdoms.

"And what do I do if wolves come ?"

"Surrender!"

Sad we wont get this !

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Was Margeary Tyrell this politically savvy in the books? I though she was a little more innocent but in the series she is pretty damn straight forward and intelligent. I know she has a wicked good conniving grandma but I never got the impression she was in on the Tyrell plotting. Is she going to become Joff's poisoner?

This episode probably deviated the most from the books so far and I wonder if that won't be a continuing trend.

A slightly disturbing thought: might they try to eliminate Olenna and make Marg the scheming one? That would be really sad, Olenna is such a brilliant character...

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Reeds are cut :( Sorry to break it to you. It sucks.

Has this really been confirmed? Where are you getting your info? Just curious because they really are two of my favorite characters in the series. Do you think they'll cut the Bloodraven\Coldhands plot, or just use Osha instead?

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She is Shae the uber annoying whore. I never want to hear that again. I seriously just hate this character. Not to mention, her acting is just HORRENDOUS. Seriously...she is bad.

The way I read it, Shae is awkward, angry, humiliated and very stressed in the current situation, and she's acting like it. In which case, she's perfect!

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Although it's obviously somewhat academic at this point, I don't understand why Craster left Jon alive after he saw what he saw. Seems to me that Craster would have no issue killing Jon in the woods, especially since he took such a dislike to Jon in the previous episodes.

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Has this really been confirmed? Where are you getting your info? Just curious because they really are two of my favorite characters in the series. Do you think they'll cut the Bloodraven\Coldhands plot, or just use Osha instead?

I assume theyll use Osha and keep Luwin alive longer. Either that or theyll introduce a Reed in season 3. They can't cut out Bloodraven and Coldhands otherwise there is no Bran plot at all.

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Although it's obviously somewhat academic at this point, I don't understand why Craster left Jon alive after he saw what he saw. Seems to me that Craster would have no issue killing Jon in the woods, especially since he took such a dislike to Jon in the previous episodes.

Why would he kill him though? He didn't and (in the show's logic at least) Jon told Mormont everything and nothing changed. Mormont knew (and Craster knew he knew?) Whereas if he killed Jon and was caught doing so, he could expect reprisals.

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Was Margeary Tyrell this politically savvy in the books? I though she was a little more innocent but in the series she is pretty damn straight forward and intelligent. I know she has a wicked good conniving grandma but I never got the impression she was in on the Tyrell plotting. Is she going to become Joff's poisoner?

This episode probably deviated the most from the books so far and I wonder if that won't be a continuing trend.

We see neither her nor Renly as a POV so it's hard to know for sure. She's arranged as marriages to a couple different people, doesn't complain much and seems to do her duty without complaint within a family that's pretty scheming.

Personally I sort of assumed she was this way but wasn't sure. Since I think they run things by GRRM to make sure they make sense (hate to write the character one way only to have GRRM go another way in Book 6) it would make sense for that to also be his intent. We just see it much more blatantly in the TV show. But much like Renly being gay or Loras saying Margeary is "officially" a virgin there are some things you just can't hint around the fringes at for a few hundred pages and have to just come out and show on TV.

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I assume theyll use Osha and keep Luwin alive longer. Either that or theyll introduce a Reed in season 3. They can't cut out Bloodraven and Coldhands otherwise there is no Bran plot at all.

I think they could easily accomplish this by having Osha and Hodor w/ Bran and Rickon until the Wall/ Coldhands...then have Osha split w/ Rickon to Skagos. After all, Rickon just "disappears" after a while...what would be the harm in having him tag along w/ Bran as an extra while the wander around the North, pre-Wall crossing. Eliminates the Reeds (regrettably) and gives filler for those secondary characters until Coldhands.

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I always had the impression that Margaery was a bit of a shcemer. Certainly not on the level of Olenna, but still more than competent. She easily holds her own against Cersei (which really isn't much, but still). I definitely wouldn't say she's totally "innocent" either, at least in the sense of a pawn being moved around while she's completely oblivious -- she definitley knows what's going on around her, and she knows the role she has to play.

Edited by Francis Buck

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^^ agreed. They're just advancing her character development.

In the books Margaery is barely mentioned until she's married to Joffrey.

Gotta say I am wholly in favour of bringing her into the story earlier. I can't see them cutting out Olenna, though - there's no way Margaery could believably carry out the assassination on her own.

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Also I doubt many people have mentioned it, but the soundtrack playing in this episode...gave me goosebumps, especially in the stormland scene. Absolutely beautiful.

All I can say is, well done to everyone involved in this series, you are making us fans and I am sure, george, proud. Fucking brilliant.

Wait...did I miss something? Was there a Stormlands scene?!? Weren't Renly's scenes in the Reach?

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I'm not one prone to seeing ____ism wherever I look, but I think people conscious of portrayals of homosexuals would have a pretty solid issue with this show as contrasted with the book.

They have simultaneously ratcheted up Renly's gay-ness while completely doing away with his martial skill/bravery etc. and conforming him to a stereotype of, well, homosexuals as 'soft'.

It may be entirely coincidental, but I doubt it.

I think they reached for easy-to-identify archetypes. And if it was coincidental and no one thought to put 2 and 2 together...wow.

I think its a little of both. But if I had to argue about ONE word in this discussion it would be in the connotation that the gay "sex" scenes are in any way "Gratuitous.”

For starters I am 100% with you on the change in Renly's character being harder to accept (the guys who do the parody GoT from season 1 have this small add-on where they show the "cool, book Renly" and how he is replaced with "weaker Renly" from the show; it ends with new Renly complaining that he has a "boo-boo."). This Renly is a baby. When he needs to turn on the charm and the gravitas he can do it (obviously on display with Cat and his people). But in private? He's weak and in way over his head.

But I want to stress that from a plot-development POV, its not a bad change at all. Its far, far more easy to understand how Renly was able to "win" over the Reach now that we know what he is- its because he didn't have anything to do with it! The Tyrells found their tool and decided to appear like they were hitching their wagon to his star, but in reality Renly is just a passanger here. The Tyrells are in this and they know it. Not their problem if Renly hasn't caught up. I truly love how Maergery Tyrell has developed; she is a fierce player. And maybe part of the problem is sexism insofar as anytime a man appears weak in the face of a strong woman we sometimes think him effeminine. That's not fair, though. However, overall Renly's homosexuality has nothing to do with him being weak.

But, when you add in Renly's gayness there can be a reaction to resort to the stereotype, and a negative one at that. And honestly- I liked him better in the book because he was entirely NOT swishy stereotype. Renly was butch gay. He was this tough, charismatic endearing guy who had flash and substance. And he had absoultely no confidence problem. At all. Series Renly is not that. He does seem to exude the sterotype. But as others have said, Loras certainly does not. Loras- to turn a phrase -seems far more like (book) Renly than Renly does.

I think this Renly works because in this Universe (the series as opposed to the book) his homosexuality is an active part of this story and not some gratoitious add-on. Its up to the viewer to accept it at face value and not play-out the sterotype because it has nothing to do with this story. Renly is weak and reaching for more than he can handle because he is a third-born, unproven untested boy who lives in the shadow of his two bad-ass brothers. And he is being told- by Tyrell after Tyrell -that he is "loved." And so he rolls the dice. And he is utterly in over his head.

And when you simply look at Renly as a gay man the sex scenes lose their taboo feel. And once that happens the story comes alive. Renly has no reason to hide his homosexuality from Maergery- she is fine with it and she is trying to teach him to be fine with it. He's a King; act like it! A King can have a man and a woman and another man if he wants. He's the King.

Because in the end this comes down to what Maergery wants. She wants a King in her stomach. And Renly being gay has absolutely nothing to do with that.

That's why it works.

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Although it's obviously somewhat academic at this point, I don't understand why Craster left Jon alive after he saw what he saw. Seems to me that Craster would have no issue killing Jon in the woods, especially since he took such a dislike to Jon in the previous episodes.

After thinking about it I think it would have gone very badly for Craster if he had killed Jon. There is nobody else near his keep so cant blame it on wildlings or Others as any kind of forensics would show its not Others. The Brothers would deny harming Jon.

Craster gets away with it because Jon keeps it between himself and Mormont (i think). I cant predict what the brothers would do if Jon told them... unless they also already know and let it happen....

It was a scene to show Craster sacrificing his chilns. Although not shown in the books it was in the series just like renley/loras scenes not in books but in tv.

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^^ agreed. They're just advancing her character development.

In the books Margaery is barely mentioned until she's married to Joffrey.

Gotta say I am wholly in favour of bringing her into the story earlier. I can't see them cutting out Olenna, though - there's no way Margaery could believably carry out the assassination on her own.

Hmmm... I dont know about that. I mean she needn't do it all alone. And it makes more sense to have a Petyr-Dontos-Marge alliance (Dontos being such a sucker for pretty lil things) than including Olena in the mix. I think that is a totally expendable character and D&D'd see it that way too. I mean, the Reeds have been omitted. Damphair has been omitted...what's Olena compared to that?

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Overall, loved the episode, I don't think any one scene made me disappointed.

A few subtle things placed in the episode that I loved:

- Margaery Tyrell only 'officially' (the key word here) being a virgin, this leads to her demise later on

- Sansa not wearing her hair the 'southern' way much like she did in season one, showing where her allegiance truly lies (plus her purposely leaving out Joffrey's name when claiming her allegiance to the king)

- Tommen's cuteness and naivety, he holds no remorse towards the north.

- Maester Luwin talking about things that supposedly don't exist anymore, including Dragons, Giants, and the CotF, all of which we see in the future.

Amongst more!

great episode

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I think its a little of both. But if I had to argue about ONE word in this discussion it would be in the connotation that the gay "sex" scenes are in any way "Gratuitous.”

For starters I am 100% with you on the change in Renly's character being harder to accept (the guys who do the parody GoT from season 1 have this small add-on where they show the "cool, book Renly" and how he is replaced with "weaker Renly" from the show; it ends with new Renly complaining that he has a "boo-boo."). This Renly is a baby. When he needs to turn on the charm and the gravitas he can do it (obviously on display with Cat and his people). But in private? He's weak and in way over his head.

But I want to stress that from a plot-development POV, its not a bad change at all. Its far, far more easy to understand how Renly was able to "win" over the Reach now that we know what he is- its because he didn't have anything to do with it! The Tyrells found their tool and decided to appear like they were hitching their wagon to his star, but in reality Renly is just a passanger here. The Tyrells are in this and they know it. Not their problem if Renly hasn't caught up. I truly love how Maergery Tyrell has developed; she is a fierce player. And maybe part of the problem is sexism insofar as anytime a man appears weak in the face of a strong woman we sometimes think him effeminine. That's not fair, though. However, overall Renly's homosexuality has nothing to do with him being weak.

But, when you add in Renly's gayness there can be a reaction to resort to the stereotype, and a negative one at that. And honestly- I liked him better in the book because he was entirely NOT swishy stereotype. Renly was butch gay. He was this tough, charismatic endearing guy who had flash and substance. And he had absoultely no confidence problem. At all. Series Renly is not that. He does seem to exude the sterotype. But as others have said, Loras certainly does not. Loras- to turn a phrase -seems far more like (book) Renly than Renly does.

I think this Renly works because in this Universe (the series as opposed to the book) his homosexuality is an active part of this story and not some gratoitious add-on. Its up to the viewer to accept it at face value and not play-out the sterotype because it has nothing to do with this story. Renly is weak and reaching for more than he can handle because he is a third-born, unproven untested boy who lives in the shadow of his two bad-ass brothers. And he is being told- by Tyrell after Tyrell -that he is "loved." And so he rolls the dice. And he is utterly in over his head.

And when you simply look at Renly as a gay man the sex scenes lose their taboo feel. And once that happens the story comes alive. Renly has no reason to hide his homosexuality from Maergery- she is fine with it and she is trying to teach him to be fine with it. He's a King; act like it! A King can have a man and a woman and another man if he wants. He's the King.

Because in the end this comes down to what Maergery wants. She wants a King in her stomach. And Renly being gay has absolutely nothing to do with that.

That's why it works.

Very well put mate! American audiences will of course often prove to be less accepting of gay sex scenes. But I think in the way that it tells us about Marge's character (the only one of the three Loras, Renly, Marge who is pivotal to the book universe) and the 'other side' of her is brilliant.

Moreover, I was initially against the casting of the actor that plays Renly. But this episode has proved me wrong. This season he comes into his own, as a younger, more flashy, more charismatic version of Mark Addy Baratheon. Kudos to D&D n co.!

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I think there were good chances in the series from the book, if you think that there are too much things in the books that aren't that important like Arya running away for a long time before being caught... in the book it was amusing because we could see what she was thinking, as we can't see that in the series, is best to be left out and go straight to what is what.

I liked also that some characters are more straight in what they want.. i never suspected Ser Loras Affair with Ranley, I only asumed that thing he had with his sister.

Edited by Menos Grande

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10. Only for Natalie Dormer's tities.

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