GRRM Interviewed

[David Selig]

It would've been better all around had Robb told Edmure what he was up to (which is pretty much moot, because I don't think that was the plan when he first marched from Riverrun and that kind of info would never be entrusted to a raven), but that's beside the point. When Edmure took Robb for his king and swore him fealty, he lost the right to just make things up as he went along. If his orders were to hold Riverrun and not to give battle, then he had no business giving battle. It is not for the King to include every lord in every aspect of every plan; it is for the leal subject to obey his king. If a lord had done what Edmure did and been unlucky enough to be a vassal of Tywin Lannister, his head would've decorated a spike.

But Edmure's orders didn't include the "don't give battle" part. He was told "Hold Riverrun" and he did. It's not Edmure's fault Robb didn't tell him what he really wanted - he's not a mind reader.

[boojam]

I think Dillane is rather more petulant and grasping than the Stannis of memory. I think of Stannis as implacable, monolithic, and the personification of duty, in an essential or symbolic sense. Imagine a fairly ordinary person trapped in a body that will simply not let him behave with any of the sloppy-thinking softness that makes human bonds like friendship and love and steers and drives him hard on the basis of impossibly high standards of principle. Are they our principles or good principles, or do they never contradict? Open to inquiry and debate, but the essentialness defines him.

Stephen Dillane is great, but the Stannis he's playing is much more obviously in over his head. Book Stannis creates the tension: are his skill, his hardness, and his essentialness enough to overcome the disparity of his numbers? He may be a jerk, but can he write his own kind of heroic song?

HBO Stannis inspires a different kind of tension: will Davos be able to save this twit from himself?

It's strange about people's perceptions, not going to go back and read CoK again, but I checked the relevant chapters , plus having read all of ADwD lately ... I see small differences in Stannis's character but that does not seem due to Dillane but the teleplay writers (and we have have a feature about Stannis to watch too, D&D give their concept there).

My take is that the shows version of Stannis is about 98% true to George's Stannis, any differences are trivial.

[Hyper]

I think Dillane is rather more petulant and grasping than the Stannis of memory. I think of Stannis as implacable, monolithic, and the personification of duty, in an essential or symbolic sense.

I think you may be making the mistake of getting your opinion of Stannis from what is said about him - or he says about himself. Not what he does. The full picture of a person is always more complicated that the public front people put up. It doesn't help that the majority of early Stannis observations are made from Davos' POV - And Davos clearly is a big fan of Stannis.

[J_Crews]

But Edmure's orders didn't include the "don't give battle" part. He was told "Hold Riverrun" and he did. It's not Edmure's fault Robb didn't tell him what he really wanted - he's not a mind reader.

Like I said, it would definitely have been better had he told him, but I think we're missing the point. I don't think Robb's eventual plan formulated until long after he had marched. None of them were Westermen and knew the lay of the land beforehand; the potential masterstroke was something formulated based on the Blackfish's outriders scouting ahead of Robb's main host in the field. A plan like that could never have been entrusted to a raven, and even a rider can be captured and tortured -- and likely would have been, considering the many war-torn leagues he would've had to travel.

Edmure was told to hold Riverrun; not every scrap of dirt and tree and peasant's mud hut sworn to Riverrun, and Robb, Blackfish, and company were counting on him doing just that. Don't get me wrong, it was an understandable thing for Edmure to have done, but, in the end, it was his blunder.

Edmure, I think, would have been and may yet be an awesome peace-time lord, but not so much in war-time. He was more heart than intellect, as evidenced also by his filling his castle with useless mouths when war approached. Not a sound military tactic. The Blackfish expelled their asses right quick and in a hurry when he had the care of the castle and trouble loomed. Going back even further, Edmure had allowed his host to scatter to defend their own lands, causing many early problems in the war.

[Arkash]

as evidenced also by his filling his castle with useless mouths when war approached.

Yeah, I remember that... somehow, we cannot really blame him on that... despite all his flaws, he is, in my opinion a real good lord, and a brave man, too, considering all the time he had to spend on that mummer's hanging by the Frey, other men would have cracked sooner...

And judging by all the food reserves the Blackfish had in Riverrun during the siege, I dont think Edmure did waste too much by feeding the peasants, so I, personally, am more enclined in not blaming anyone... both Robb and Edmure did the right thing, it was just an inevitable mistake, cause I also understand Robb by wanting not to share too much of his tactics.

[salt]

But Edmure's orders didn't include the "don't give battle" part. He was told "Hold Riverrun" and he did. It's not Edmure's fault Robb didn't tell him what he really wanted - he's not a mind reader.

Well, it seemed pretty clear that Edmure wasn't supposed to fight an offensive battle by Robb's orders, Robb just never told him why so Edmure decided to use his own judgement. Should Robb have given him more information on the plan? Probably. On the other hand, Edmure had a direct order from his liege lord. A king should be able to expect bannermen to follow his orders to the letter without sitting down and explaining the nuances of every one of them.

[J_Crews]

Yeah, I remember that... somehow, we cannot really blame him on that... despite all his flaws, he is, in my opinion a real good lord, and a brave man, too, considering all the time he had to spend on that mummer's hanging by the Frey, other men would have cracked sooner...

And judging by all the food reserves the Blackfish had in Riverrun during the siege, I dont think Edmure did waste too much by feeding the peasants, so I, personally, am more enclined in not blaming anyone... both Robb and Edmure did the right thing, it was just an inevitable mistake, cause I also understand Robb by wanting not to share too much of his tactics.

Like I said, he was a good peace-time lord. He loved his people and wanted them to feel safe. He was also very brave; but brave doesn't equal smart. War is about tactics, not heart. He was supposed to be playing chess, not checkers. And, no, he didn't waste too much of their food reserves in the time they were there, but if they had been besieged, it would've been disastrous. The whole reason Jaime does what he does later to secure the castle's surrender is because the Blackfish, having scoured the countryside clean of foodstuffs and expelled all the useless mouths, could've held-out for years (didn't the book say 2 years?), thus tying-up the Lannister army and leaving them in a position where they would've had to have food shipped-in.

How may useless eaters do you imagine Stannis allowed into Storms' End when he held it under siege?

[J_Crews]

Well, it seemed pretty clear that Edmure wasn't supposed to fight an offensive battle by Robb's orders, Robb just never told him why so Edmure decided to use his own judgement. Should Robb have given him more information on the plan? Probably. On the other hand, Edmure had a direct order from his liege lord. A king should be able to expect bannermen to follow his orders to the letter without sitting down and explaining the nuances of every one of them.

Yup. In fact, that's a big part of swearing fealty. Like I said before, though, I don't think Robb could've told him even if he had wanted to -- he didn't have a cellphone on him. ;)

[Leuf]

If Edmure had let Tywin pass and Tywin destroyed Robb's army from the rear, the same people would be blaming Edmure that are now blaming him for not letting him pass. People in command have to make decisions and there will always be people to second guess them. It's really just sloppy writing on GRRM's part to have this happen in a way that's just not plausible. It would have been better for somehow Edmure to not get a message to let Tywin pass than have Robb bitching about Edmure not being psychic about his vague orders.

[boojam]

You know this may be the 4 or 5 time (it could be many more) where GRRM has elaborated about how having been both a teleplay writer and a writer that he understands the constraints and restructuring to be done for even HBO. I don't know how much mustard it cuts with the zealous fan readers who don't understand visual adaptation.

So far I do think he's gotten what he wanted in elaboration.

(If I were king god of the producers and came to him and said what don't we make 20 three hour films out of the books and I have a billion dollars to put down what do you say George? Just saying.)

[J_Crews]

If Edmure had let Tywin pass and Tywin destroyed Robb's army from the rear, the same people would be blaming Edmure that are now blaming him for not letting him pass. People in command have to make decisions and there will always be people to second guess them. It's really just sloppy writing on GRRM's part to have this happen in a way that's just not plausible. It would have been better for somehow Edmure to not get a message to let Tywin pass than have Robb bitching about Edmure not being psychic about his vague orders.

If he had tried to send something that sensitive in a message... that would've been completely unrealistic. Putting it out there where word could've reached Lord Tywin would've negated the whole plan, and, most likely, would've resulted in Tywin surrounding Robb's forces and annihilating them. There is nothing vague about "hold Riverrun until I return;" even Catelyn thought he was retarded to offer battle in that situation, IIRC. His whole responsibility was to hold a point of strength that Robb's army could retreat to at need.

[Leuf]

His whole responsibility was to hold a point of strength that Robb's army could retreat to at need.

How is Robb supposed to be able to retreat to Riverrun if Edmure lets Tywin assume a position between Robb and Riverrun? How is Edmure supposed to defend Riverrun if he allows Robb's force to be destroyed? It's only a matter of time then before Riverrun will fall to a siege.

He's supposed to interpret "hold Riverrun" as under no circumstance are you supposed to engage anyone when Tywin is heading west. However he is also supposed to interpret "hold Riverrun" as attack Tywin from behind at the same time as Robb after he's already passed. Because if Edmure lets Tywin go by then Tywin has Robb outnumbered and trapped in Lannister territory. Robb's supposed "plan" depends entirely on Edmure not just sitting in Riverrun. How is Edmure ever supposed to get a message to attack Tywin when Tywin is between the two of them?

I'm not talking about a raven, I'm thinking more like for whatever reason Edmure and Robb can't talk directly before Robb leaves, and an intermediary misunderstands the message he's supposed to give. That sort of thing does happen (Charge of the light brigade).

[Jory]

I think you may be making the mistake of getting your opinion of Stannis from what is said about him - or he says about himself. Not what he does. The full picture of a person is always more complicated that the public front people put up. It doesn't help that the majority of early Stannis observations are made from Davos' POV - And Davos clearly is a big fan of Stannis.

For good reason.

[J_Crews]

... I'm not talking about a raven, I'm thinking more like for whatever reason Edmure and Robb can't talk directly before Robb leaves...

Again, it wasn't the plan when Robb left. The plan was just to draw Tywin away from the Riverlands, moving the theater of war into his backyard, where they could feed their army from his harvest and it would be his lands being ravaged and his smallfolk killed or run off. None of them knew the place where they eventually wanted to ambush Tywin's army even existed until the Blackfish's advance scouts found it. It was a potentially war-ending coup de gras they cooked-up in the field, assuming Edmure would follow orders as given.

To be fair, though, it still might've worked, even with Edmure slowing them down, had it not been for bad timing. Edmure slowing Tywin's host allowed word to reach him of the attack on KL, causing him to turn his army south. Robb was pissed because if Edmure had let them pass unmolested, then that message wouldn't have reached Tywin until far later, allowing time for them to spring their trap and/or Tywin's forces to be in the West with a far longer, harder march between them and KL. Not only could they have crushed Tywins army, but there's a chance Stannis would have taken KL as well, utterly annihilating the Lannister threat..

[J_Crews]

How is Robb supposed to be able to retreat to Riverrun if Edmure lets Tywin assume a position between Robb and Riverrun?

Because Robb had no army in front of him. He could've fought a rear-action moving southwest along the River Road, skirted Casterly Rock (where only a small force would be defending and, therefore, wouldn't engage), turn east along the Gold Road, then north to come up between Pinkmaiden and the Golden Tooth along the Red Fork of the Trident right back up to Riverrun. There was nothing trapping him in the west even if Tywin's host was between him and Riverrun.

[Leuf]

Because Robb had no army in front of him. He could've fought a rear-action moving southwest along the River Road, skirted Casterly Rock (where only a small force would be defending and, therefore, wouldn't engage), turn east along the Gold Road, then north to come up between Pinkmaiden and the Golden Tooth along the Red Fork of the Trident right back up to Riverrun. There was nothing trapping him in the west even if Tywin's host was between him and Riverrun.

I don't think either Robb or Tywin want to go south and be in striking distance of Renly's 100k men. Renly can march north and drive Robb right back into Tywin and then force Tywin to retreat to Casterly Rock, leave a force large enough to prevent Tywin from marching out ever again and still have plenty of men to deal with Stannis and King's Landing without having to worry about being attacked from the rear. You can argue that Renly is too far south without a road running straight north (Really George? The map is not very realistic as far as roads) but if he's scouting the westerlands and a raven gets to him to tell him that both Robb and Tywin are in the west he can maybe get up there. The fact that Tywin tries to take the river road rather than march south to the gold road I think tells us that Renly can get up north from Bitterbridge reasonably quickly, since the river road is a far more vulnerable place for Tywin to be otherwise.

In any event, Robb can't trap Tywin anymore than Tywin can trap Robb, unless Robb coordinates his divided forces. I fail to see how Robb inflicts more casualties on Tywin during this retreat around the mountains than Edmure does from his fortified position. Riverrun has already been sieged so it's not like this ground where Edmure is fighting him is unspoiled territory that's supporting Riverrun.

If Robb wants to draw Tywin west then surely he ought to coordinate things with Edmure. There's only two ways for Tywin to get to the west, it's not like there's an infinite array of contingencies to deal with. Surely if Robb wants to finish off Tywin then he wants Edmure to be able to fall upon any retreating army to finish them off. It's just not plausible that Robb doesn't talk any of this over with Edmure. They're up there together with nothing else to do for some time.

All of this also hinges on Tywin not having some trick up his sleeve. He's not stupid and he didn't march his force up there without realizing the position he was putting himself in. Tywin doesn't like not having the advantage and manufactures them when he doesn't have a perceived natural one.

[J_Crews]

I don't think either Robb or Tywin want to go south and be in striking distance of Renly's 100k men. Renly can march north and drive Robb right back into Tywin and then force Tywin to retreat to Casterly Rock, leave a force large enough to prevent Tywin from marching out ever again and still have plenty of men to deal with Stannis and King's Landing without having to worry about being attacked from the rear. You can argue that Renly is too far south without a road running straight north (Really George? The map is not very realistic as far as roads) but if he's scouting the westerlands and a raven gets to him to tell him that both Robb and Tywin are in the west he can maybe get up there. The fact that Tywin tries to take the river road rather than march south to the gold road I think tells us that Renly can get up north from Bitterbridge reasonably quickly, since the river road is a far more vulnerable place for Tywin to be otherwise.

I can't remember what you mean about Tywin opting for the River Road over the Gold Road, but, if you're talking about when he marched west to face Robb, then the Gold Road route would've been hundreds of leagues out of the way. The River Road, on the other hand, runs right from Harrenhall, past Riverrun, then down to Lannisort/Casterly Rock. To get to the west from Harrenhal by the Gold Road would've meant marching due south to find it just west of KL, then turn west for the long march. This would have put him close to Renly's infantry camped at Bitterbridge (close being a long forced march); Renly's knights and cavalry were hundreds of miles even further east at Storm's End.

Conversely, if you look at the map, you'll see that if Robb followed the route I described he'd be nowhere near Bitterbridge. Outriders only go out so far; they never would've known he was even there. Besides, even if they did (which they couldn't), he'd be long gone before the scouts got word there and 60,000 foot managed to break camp and march that far. Nevermind that Robb's horse would cut the infantry to ribbons in the open field.

In any event, Robb can't trap Tywin anymore than Tywin can trap Robb, unless Robb coordinates his divided forces. I fail to see how Robb inflicts more casualties on Tywin during this retreat around the mountains than Edmure does from his fortified position. Riverrun has already been sieged so it's not like this ground where Edmure is fighting him is unspoiled territory that's supporting Riverrun.

If Robb wants to draw Tywin west then surely he ought to coordinate things with Edmure. There's only two ways for Tywin to get to the west, it's not like there's an infinite array of contingencies to deal with. Surely if Robb wants to finish off Tywin then he wants Edmure to be able to fall upon any retreating army to finish them off. It's just not plausible that Robb doesn't talk any of this over with Edmure. They're up there together with nothing else to do for some time.

Again, as I've said all along Robb's trap was devised weeks after leaving Edmure, who would've only had a small force to hold Riverrun, not a large army. It was never about trapping Tywin between them, ony drawing him west to move the theater of war away from the Riverlands. Robb's trap-that-never-happened didn't involve the holding force at Riverrun at all. It would surely have worked-out better if he'd been able to coordinate with Edmure, but he couldn't without running the risk of Tywin finding out the details of the plan.

The text to refresh us:

Lord Hoster's private audience chamber was a small room above the Great Hall, better suited to intimate discussions. Robb took the high seat, removed his crown, and set it on the floor beside him as Catelyn rang for wine. Edmure was filling his uncle's ear with the whole story of the fight at the Stone Mill. it was only after the servants had come and gone that the Blackfish cleared his throat and said, "I think we've all heard sufficient of your boasting, Nephew."

Edmure was taken aback. "Boasting? What do you mean?"

"I mean," said the Blackfish, "that you owe His Grace your thanks for his forbearance. He played out that mummer's farce in the Great Hall so as not to shame you before your own people. Had it been me I would have flayed you for your stupidity rather than praising this folly of the fords."

"Good men died to defend those fords, Uncle." Edmure sounded outraged. "What, is no one to win victories but the Young Wolf? Did I steal some glory meant for you, Robb?"

"Your Grace," Robb corrected, icy. "You took me for your king, Uncle. or have you forgotten that as well?"

The Blackfish said, "You were commanded to hold Riverrun, Edmure, no more."

"I held Riverrun, and I bloodied Lord Tywin's nose."

"So you did," said Robb. "But a bloody nose won't win the war, will it? Did you ever think to ask yourself why we remained in the west so long after Oxcross? You knew I did not have enough men to threaten Lannisport or Casterly Rock."

"Why … there were other castles … gold, cattle…"

"You think we stayed for plunder?" Robb was incredulous. "Uncle, I wanted Lord Tywin to come west."

"We were all horsed," Ser Brynden said. "The Lannister host was mainly foot. We planned to run Lord Tywin a merry chase up and down the coast, then slip behind him to take up a strong defensive position athwart the gold road, at a place my scouts had found where the ground would have been greatly in our favor. If he had come at us there, he would have paid a grievous price. But if he did not attack, he would have been trapped in the west, a thousand leagues from where he needed to be. All the while we would have lived off his land, instead of him living off ours."

"Lord Stannis was about to fall upon King's Landing," Robb said. "He might have rid us of Joffrey, the queen, and the Imp in one red stroke. Then we might have been able to make a peace."

Edmure looked from uncle to nephew. "You never told me."

"I told you to hold Riverrun, " said Robb. "What part of that command did you fail to comprehend?"

"When you stopped Lord Tywin on the Red Fork," said the Blackfish, liyou delayed him just long enough for riders out of Bitterbridge to reach him with word of what was happening to the east. Lord Tywin turned his host at once, joined up with Matthis Rowan and Randyll Tarly near the headwaters of the Blackwater, and made a forced march to Tumbler's Falls, where he found Mace Tyrell and two of his sons waiting with a huge host and a fleet of barges. They floated down the river, disembarked half a day's ride from the city, and took Stannis in the rear."

[Ran]

I think it's worth bearing in mind that every riverlord -- veterans like Tytos Blackwood included - also seemed to think that defending the fords was commiserate with holding Riverrun. Catelyn raised a valid objection, but the idea that in the Middle Ages, a vassal would be expected to take vague orders and read them in the most conservative way possible doesn't wash. That's not how those societies worked.

Robb and the Blackfish are being very unfair to Edmure, painting "hold Riverrun" in terms that no one else considered reasonable. Heck, if you look back at ACoK, no one even objects on the basis of "hold Riverrun" meaning watch the Lannisters pass by. Catelyn's objections are on the grounds of numbers and the danger of it, and when she gives up arguing, she's not fretting about Robb being disobeyed.

Robb and Brynden came in hard at Edmure to soften him up so they could force him into a Frey marriage expeditiously. That's my view.

[Leuf]

I never thought of this before, but Robb describes Tywin's force as mostly foot. Yet at the battle of the green fork Tywin has 4000 cavalry on his right, and that's only 3/4s of his knights. Okay that's still "mostly" foot, but not an insignificant cavalry either and after all the fighting Robb has been through probably not so far from what he has. I wonder if Roose was feeding him bad information right from the start?

Let's say Robb gets what he wants. He's a fool if he thinks he knows Lannister territory better than Tywin, so he's not going to draw him into a battle that puts Tywin on bad ground. So let's say Tywin is trapped and Robb holds him there in the west, and Stannis takes King's Landing. We know how Stannis feels about Robb, he's not going to give him the North. So Stannis can just sail up to White Harbor and take the North while Robb is sitting out west.

[salt]

Let's say Robb gets what he wants. He's a fool if he thinks he knows Lannister territory better than Tywin, so he's not going to draw him into a battle that puts Tywin on bad ground. So let's say Tywin is trapped and Robb holds him there in the west, and Stannis takes King's Landing. We know how Stannis feels about Robb, he's not going to give him the North. So Stannis can just sail up to White Harbor and take the North while Robb is sitting out west.

This is baseless speculation, and doesn't make a lick of sense from a strategic perspective. Had Stannis taken KL he still would have had to subdue the Crownlands and defeat the Tyrells and Lannisters, who's combined armies were something like 6 or 7 times as large as Robb's. Leaving the captured capital hundreds of miles behind to go marching through the vast, empty North would have been a very low priority, especially when it would have encouraged Robb to pull back from the West and return home, meaning that Robb and Tywin, Stannis's most dangerous enemy, would no longer be killing each other.