The King's Blood by Daniel Abraham

[Francis Buck]

I tried reading The Dragon's Path but it just didn't hold my interest. The only POV I found truly interesting was Cithrin. West and Dawson just bored me to tears. Geder was decent, but not enough to keep me into it. But I keep hearing such good things about the series so I may take another stab at it. I didn't hate it or anything, the writing was good and all. Sometimes it just depends on my mood, I guess.

[TrackerNeil]

I tried reading The Dragon's Path but it just didn't hold my interest. The only POV I found truly interesting was Cithrin. West and Dawson just bored me to tears. Geder was decent, but not enough to keep me into it. But I keep hearing such good things about the series so I may take another stab at it. I didn't hate it or anything, the writing was good and all. Sometimes it just depends on my mood, I guess.

I think you're dead-on about Marcus, who basically wanders aimlessly through the series. The dead family thing IMO completely fails to pay off; after two books I still have no idea what his wife and daughter were like. They really are the

.

Cithrin, however, held my attention. She feels like the most active character in the series, and to be honest if Abraham simply told the story of her rise I'd be totally satisfied.

[Arthmail]

If Cithrin was the entire focus of the series i'd throw the books away. I actually groan when it comes to her sections of the book. While Wester has been fairly boring so far, his story looks at least to be picking up.

The only good thing about Cithrin so far is that she managed to call out Geder for what he is fairly quickly. That being said, i don't think it takes a great deal of insight to see what the man is, so Dawson and others constantly misjudging him never really felt right to me.

Geder's chapters are very interesting in that they mostly help to confuse the reader to the fact that the man is a raging sociopath.

Edit: In regards to Wester, how long has it been since his family has died? One thing i've noticed in too many books is that people never really seem to just get over shit. Yes, yes, i understand that seeing his family burned to death in front of him would be pretty traumatic. But how many people that survived the holocaust simply did nothing for the next decade or so of their lives?

His connection to Cithrin has felt like a false note to me since the beginning.

[Francis Buck]

Edit: In regards to Wester, how long has it been since his family has died? One thing i've noticed in too many books is that people never really seem to just get over shit. Yes, yes, i understand that seeing his family burned to death in front of him would be pretty traumatic. But how many people that survived the holocaust simply did nothing for the next decade or so of their lives?

His connection to Cithrin has felt like a false note to me since the beginning.

Agreed on this whole thing, and it's part of what made me dislike his character. That, and he just came off as really stereotypical in-general: the grizzled old war vet with a heart of gold and a tragic past. Well, maybe he doesn't have a heart of gold since I only got maybe half-way through, but that was impression I got. Out of curiosity, does Master Kit ever get any more POV's? I really liked the prologue, and he's a pretty intriguing character in general.

[Jaxom 1974]

The only good thing about Cithrin so far is that she managed to call out Geder for what he is fairly quickly. That being said, i don't think it takes a great deal of insight to see what the man is, so Dawson and others constantly misjudging him never really felt right to me.

Geder's chapters are very interesting in that they mostly help to confuse the reader to the fact that the man is a raging sociopath.

Mis-judging or mis-understanding? I think they're two separate things.

Agreed on this whole thing, and it's part of what made me dislike his character. That, and he just came off as really stereotypical in-general: the grizzled old war vet with a heart of gold and a tragic past. Well, maybe he doesn't have a heart of gold since I only got maybe half-way through, but that was impression I got. Out of curiosity, does Master Kit ever get any more POV's? I really liked the prologue, and he's a pretty intriguing character in general.

Wester's given me the impression that his apparent aimlessness is intentional. That there is a lot more to the character that is meant to pay off in future books. While the groundwork for an interesting back story is there, right now he does feel a little one dimensional at times, but as Abraham has never seemed to be one to stick to conventional character tropes, I'd like to think that there are big things ahead for the man...

[Spring Bass]

The only good thing about Cithrin so far is that she managed to call out Geder for what he is fairly quickly. That being said, i don't think it takes a great deal of insight to see what the man is, so Dawson and others constantly misjudging him never really felt right to me.

Dawson just misinterpreted what he saw. I think that's fair, particularly since Dawson sees everything through an Arrogant Noble-colored lens.

There was also a fair amount of rationalization on his part. He disliked Geder's rapid rise to the top spot, as well as the increasing influence of the foreign spider priests, so seized upon the easiest possible rationalization that justified the removal of Geder and the "salvation" of the Empire.

[williamjm]

I tried reading The Dragon's Path but it just didn't hold my interest. The only POV I found truly interesting was Cithrin. West and Dawson just bored me to tears. Geder was decent, but not enough to keep me into it. But I keep hearing such good things about the series so I may take another stab at it. I didn't hate it or anything, the writing was good and all. Sometimes it just depends on my mood, I guess.

I found the first book a bit underwhelming, but I thought the second was definitely an improvement although I'm not sure whether it's enough of an improvement to recommend it to you if you didn't finish the first one.

The only good thing about Cithrin so far is that she managed to call out Geder for what he is fairly quickly. That being said, i don't think it takes a great deal of insight to see what the man is, so Dawson and others constantly misjudging him never really felt right to me.

I'm curious what other people think about the reactions of the other characters to what Geder did at Vanai - burning down an entire city and massacre a population that the Anteans had no real particular enmity towards. Nobody really seems all that bothered by it, and I can't quite decide whether that's a realistic portrayal of the ruthlessness of feudal medieval regimes or whether they're a bit too accepting of something that seems to be quite an extreme act, even by the standards of medieval warfare. I'm not necessarily expecting people to publicly condemn his actions, but I'd have thought they'd at least be a little more wary of someone who would do such a thing.

I do like the way Cithrin relatively quickly comes to understand Geder, but her brief romance with him does seem a bit unlikely. I know the circumstances of them hiding together for days would have helped, but even before she realises how disturbed he is he doesn't really seem like the sort of man Cithrin would find attractive.

Out of curiosity, does Master Kit ever get any more POV's? I really liked the prologue, and he's a pretty intriguing character in general.

He gets the prologue and epilogue in both of the books. I wouldn't mind seeing more chapters from him, though.

[TrackerNeil]

Wester's given me the impression that his apparent aimlessness is intentional. That there is a lot more to the character that is meant to pay off in future books. While the groundwork for an interesting back story is there, right now he does feel a little one dimensional at times, but as Abraham has never seemed to be one to stick to conventional character tropes, I'd like to think that there are big things ahead for the man...

Perhaps that's the case, but no writer should expect readers to plod through two books of boring POVs before getting to the good stuff. If Marcus is going to get interesting, he should do so in POV #1.

[Spring Bass]

I'm curious what other people think about the reactions of the other characters to what Geder did at Vanai - burning down an entire city and massacre a population that the Anteans had no real particular enmity towards. Nobody really seems all that bothered by it, and I can't quite decide whether that's a realistic portrayal of the ruthlessness of feudal medieval regimes or whether they're a bit too accepting of something that seems to be quite an extreme act, even by the standards of medieval warfare. I'm not necessarily expecting people to publicly condemn his actions, but I'd have thought they'd at least be a little more wary of someone who would do such a thing.

I think many of them were appalled, but they didn't say anything because the King and some of his key nobles were praising Geder to the moon for what he did (although he received hints shortly afterward that it was time for him to leave for a while, including from his own father). Certainly Dawson and Jory seemed disgusted by what he did, although Dawson praises and backs Geder once he realizes that it might be to his political advantage.

That said, there is also a cultural factor to it. I think they're just more tolerant of what we would consider "atrocities", simply because it would be a common feature in most wars (look at real-life history with the Chevauchee tactic).

I do like the way Cithrin relatively quickly comes to understand Geder, but her brief romance with him does seem a bit unlikely. I know the circumstances of them hiding together for days would have helped, but even before she realises how disturbed he is he doesn't really seem like the sort of man Cithrin would find attractive.

I don't think she was ever romantically drawn to him. He was a curiosity to her, being this feared de facto ruler of Antea who was also fucked up and occasionally nice. The sex really came across as something stupid and impulsive on her part, a product of the endangered situation they were in.

[Spring Bass]

I wonder how much of Geder's fucked-up-edness can be attributed to the spider priests in King's Blood. I always just assumed that they were influencing him as well as "reading" people for him.

[Arthmail]

No, i think burning down a city should have given Dawson and others at least an idea that he was a rabid psycho. Even amidst a cultural back drop of war, such an action would have given people pause.

Dawson's attempt to kill Geder also seemed weak. I mean, he knew the power of the priests voice. He knew that there was something wrong with them, but he failed to take into account what other gifts they might have had. To be honest, why not just invite Geder for a family dinner and then murder him then?

The problem that i have with Cithrin is that for all intents and purposes she is trying to act much older than she is, trying to establish a bank and what have you. Then she does shit like sleep with Geder, which is extremely dangerous and short sighted,and those moments of recklessness do not really sink in with the rest of her character.

I really like the books, don't get me wrong, but the ease with which people take power - i mean, how many noble families are there, and we see a few lords at most? What is up with that? At the king's level, there should be a dozen regular lords in attendance. Perhaps Abraham didn't want the extra bloat, but it does not come across as particularily realistic. I don't know, perhaps the court just felt hallow to me.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Dawson's attempt to kill Geder also seemed weak. I mean, he knew the power of the priests voice. He knew that there was something wrong with them, but he failed to take into account what other gifts they might have had. To be honest, why not just invite Geder for a family dinner and then murder him then?

Well, I guess that he wanted a Julius Caesar style "statement" assassination rather than a secretive "knife in the dark" type

The problem that i have with Cithrin is that for all intents and purposes she is trying to act much older than she is, trying to establish a bank and what have you. Then she does shit like sleep with Geder, which is extremely dangerous and short sighted,and those moments of recklessness do not really sink in with the rest of her character.

I would listed have put impulsive, short sighted recklessness as an essential part of her character.

[mormont]

Perhaps that's the case, but no writer should expect readers to plod through two books of boring POVs before getting to the good stuff. If Marcus is going to get interesting, he should do so in POV #1.

Not if your aim is to subvert, or at least put an interesting twist, on an existing trope. First, you need to signal the trope you're using, and lull the reader into thinking that's all you're doing. The First Law takes until book 3 to put its twist on Logen, really - on Bayaz, too.

Not that I'm saying that's what is going on with Marcus. I don't know. It could be that the wife and daughter bit is just underdeveloped and that Marcus just isn't a stunningly original character. And even if there is more to come, it might be that the twist hasn't been handled well. But the idea that writers have to be up front with their characters from POV 1 isn't really sustainable as a rule.

No, i think burning down a city should have given Dawson and others at least an idea that he was a rabid psycho. Even amidst a cultural back drop of war, such an action would have given people pause.

There's evidence that it did, of course. But it seems that many perceived it as an act of extraordinary ruthlessness and daring, rather than rabidly psychotic. At least partly, this is because it was in their political interest to do so. But that doesn't mean they privately believed otherwise. After all, Geder does not act as if he's rabidly psychotic, most of the time (although that throne room scene in TKB must be giving people some pause): and people would tend to believe the evidence of their own eyes, and downplay some atrocity that happened far away to people they care little about.

Dawson's attempt to kill Geder also seemed weak. I mean, he knew the power of the priests voice. He knew that there was something wrong with them, but he failed to take into account what other gifts they might have had.

Magic isn't common, and this magic specifically is pretty much unknown. Characters generally don't take into account things they think are mythical. ;)

To be honest, why not just invite Geder for a family dinner and then murder him then?

This is actually discussed in the book, if obliquely. Dawson is insistent that they must kill Geder in a way that leaves no doubt as to their loyalty to the throne. A clandestine assassination would inevitably be seen as a power grab. That's why Dawson insists they kill Geder and then immediately and publicly surrender to Aster.

[TrackerNeil]

But the idea that writers have to be up front with their characters from POV 1 isn't really sustainable as a rule.

I agree, which is why I never said otherwise.

It's one thing to subvert a trope - I love that - but another to create a boring character who will become interesting only after two or three books. It's entirely possible to both play off a trope and create an interesting character from the get-go. Abraham has been writing for a long time and should be able to do this.

[Spring Bass]

Not that I'm saying that's what is going on with Marcus. I don't know. It could be that the wife and daughter bit is just underdeveloped and that Marcus just isn't a stunningly original character. And even if there is more to come, it might be that the twist hasn't been handled well. But the idea that writers have to be up front with their characters from POV 1 isn't really sustainable as a rule.

I always thought he was the most "archetypal" character. One out of five POV characters being a bit unoriginal isn't too bad of a ratio.

[mormont]

I agree, which is why I never said otherwise.

It's one thing to subvert a trope - I love that - but another to create a boring character who will become interesting only after two or three books. It's entirely possible to both play off a trope and create an interesting character from the get-go. Abraham has been writing for a long time and should be able to do this.

Well, see, there is where you and I go slightly in different directions. If your thesis is that Marcus is uninteresting because he is too aimless and his backstory insufficiently fleshed out, that's one thing: in that event, as Maurice points out, it might simply be a case of waiting for the payoff. But if you're saying that the character as written is just boring, to the point that any future payoff is irrelevant, that's another thing, and I'm afraid I can't even meet you half-way on that one. Yes, he's a bit archetypical - I half-jokingly compared him to Mal Reynolds earlier myself. But while he's not as original or intriguing a character as some of the rest, he's perfectly readable and competently written.

[Hereward]

The only thing that bothers me about the series thus far is that a major character is named Dawson. Dawson is not an arch-conservative general and duellist. Dawson is a midwestern out of work actor.

[Spring Bass]

I'm not sure what the twist would be for Marcus, unless Abraham was going for some kind of Abercrombie-ish thing where he's not an entirely reliable POV voice (like with Bremer dan Gorst). His internal POV seems to match what people who know him think of him.

[TrackerNeil]

Well, see, there is where you and I go slightly in different directions. If your thesis is that Marcus is uninteresting because he is too aimless and his backstory insufficiently fleshed out, that's one thing: in that event, as Maurice points out, it might simply be a case of waiting for the payoff.

How long are we supposed to wait? I don't really know why we have to wait at least two books for a character to become interesting. No one's saying that Abraham has to deliver the entirety of Marcus in the first chapter, but after two books the readers should not be still wondering who a main character is and where he is going.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Arthmail - per the book, there are forty noble families in Antea. I assume this refers only to high lords, because at several times there are mentioned to be "hundreds" of people at court, and Dawson alone has several dozen knights (of presumably noble birth) in his army of 400.

The sizes of things are a bit unrealistic IMO. Antea and several other cities are thriving metropolises, but Imperial Antea - explicitly the strongest nation on the continent - can only field 6000 men?