The King's Blood by Daniel Abraham

[mormont]

How long are we supposed to wait? I don't really know why we have to wait at least two books for a character to become interesting.

I'm not saying 'we' do - I find him interesting enough as he is. What I'm saying is that if you find him uninteresting for these specific reasons, you might have your mind changed by later developments. You're perfectly entitled to decide that's not good enough, of course.

[Datepalm]

The sizes of things are a bit unrealistic IMO. Antea and several other cities are thriving metropolises, but Imperial Antea - explicitly the strongest nation on the continent - can only field 6000 men?

I'm not sure it is - that is, it's a sizeable, lively city by their standards, but not a huge metropolis - not more than a 100k population or so, which is both historically consistent and seems to me to be the way the city is described. It doesn't come across as a massive place, the way, say King's Landing does with it's constant descriptions of squalor and individual neighbourhoods and so on. To the contrary, it's small enough to randomly run into people in the crowd.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Right but lets think about that.

1. There are at least three large cities in Imperial Antea, which we know because Asterilhold is mentioned as being small and having "only" two cities worthy of the name.

2. Assuming that 100k is a proper figure for Antea, let's add three more cities half its size to the list, meaning 250k urban citizens at the least.

3. Going by our own history, if large cities are around that size, we must also assume that the urban population is much less than half the total population, perhaps as little as a tenth. Let's assume that this is an urbanized land (for the epoch) with well-developed agriculture and say that urban dwellers are 30% of the total pop.

That gives us around 850k total population, which is ridiculously small even by historical standards. Regardless, that population (per previous discussions on this board) should be able to support 1% of itself on the field, or over 8000 men. And that's with giving the setting a lot of benefit I the doubt.

[Spring Bass]

It depends on the composition of your army. I can't remember if the 6000 force represented "professionals" (including nobility like House Kalliam and their retainers) or if it also included random peasantfolk conscripted from the countryside. It could just be that it's time-consuming and difficult to raise a large force, and 6000 was all they could raise and supply at the time.

[DanielAbraham]

FWIW, the 6000 were suposed to be just the high-level arms and armor guys. The number was from Dawson's perspective, and he doesn't really think the small folk and support count. I did a bad job making it clear, though. That's a fair cop.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Thanks for the reply! That does make more sense when you explain it.

Might be tough going for two answers in a row, but durin the conversation between Geder and his council regarding splitting Asterilhold, am I correct that the number given for noble families (40 including the Kalliams and other disgraced/dispossessed Houses) refers only to the high nobility and not to the gentry as a whole?

[DanielAbraham]

I had it in mind that there were forty main bloodlines, sometimes with several branches. Geder, ferinstance, became Baron of Ebbingbaugh and his father's still Viscount of Riverhalm, but they're both Palliako. That kind of thing has been going on since dirt was young, so the relationships are all godawful complex. Only I didn't want the *books* to be godawful complex, so I didn't make that central to the plots. Kalliam is a small nuclear family to keep the plot from bogging down in whose cousin has which title and precedence over their nephews because of which title. Whether that was a smart trade-off is an open question, but it's the one I made.

[Jaxom 1974]

Perhaps that's the case, but no writer should expect readers to plod through two books of boring POVs before getting to the good stuff. If Marcus is going to get interesting, he should do so in POV #1.

How long are we supposed to wait? I don't really know why we have to wait at least two books for a character to become interesting. No one's saying that Abraham has to deliver the entirety of Marcus in the first chapter, but after two books the readers should not be still wondering who a main character is and where he is going.

And that, as mormont seems to have explained, is the rub. There's enough things that are interesting about Marcus Wester that keeps it from being boring. I think the second book gave some more weight to his back story that peaks my interest.

Wester is an interesting character, it's just that there are more characters that are shining a little brighter earlier in the series. With 5 books planned and only 2 finished, it's enough to know that there is going to be a payoff, and it'll be a big one.

[Racker]

This 'twist' has me more curious and confounded than anything else that happened in the novel. I wasn't expecting it to happen so soo, though it was basically inevitable. I'm really curious about Yardem's motivations.

I thought that Yardem was betraying Marcus because he was going to sink the company when he stole the money from the bank; Yardem had said a couple of times how they had it made. They didn't have to travel, they had plenty of money, food and drink just from throwing people out of their houses and guarding a bank all day. Marcus was going to ruin that for him and the rest of the company, and he took it as his duty as second in command to stop that from happening. That was my understanding, and I actually felt kind of bad for Yardem since Marcus had put him in that position.

Also, not a lot of love for Marcus anywhere, heh. I actually like him a lot. As the stereotypical warrior-hero with a tragic past that he is, you'd expect him to be out saving the day all through the books. Instead, he's moping around guarding a bank the majority of the time, while a seventeen year old banker girl is out moving rocks all over the country.

I also think it's unfair to say he 'hasn't gotten over' his wife and child's deaths. Obviously that's something you never really completely get over, but he's doing alright for himself. He's got the company, he isn't crying all the time or anything. He has some problems dating, and is perhaps overly attached to Cithrin, but I don't think that's unrealistic.

[williamjm]

I thought that Yardem was betraying Marcus because he was going to sink the company when he stole the money from the bank; Yardem had said a couple of times how they had it made. They didn't have to travel, they had plenty of money, food and drink just from throwing people out of their houses and guarding a bank all day. Marcus was going to ruin that for him and the rest of the company, and he took it as his duty as second in command to stop that from happening. That was my understanding, and I actually felt kind of bad for Yardem since Marcus had put him in that position.

Is this meant to be a spoiler thread? Considering some of the previous discussion it probably should be. To be safe...

I agree, although I think it might not just be that Yardem thinks they've got a good job already. I think Yardem probably would follow Marcus away if given a good or even half-decent reason to do so, but Marcus' plan of action is ridiculous and he just ignores Yardem repeatedly pointing this out to him. As Yardem says, they'd almost certainly arrive too late in Caminpool to do any good, it's unclear whether they could even get to Camnipol with a mercenary force, Cithrin isn't expecting them to save her and (I don't think he mentions this) she would be furious if she found out that Marcus had robbed her bank to go on a quixotic and irrational quest to save her and there would be no way they could then return to Porte Olivia with her, even assuming the Medean Bank would let her back after the people she employed had robbed them.

I think Yardem was loyal to Marcus, but there's a limit to how far loyalty would go, and he's been put in an impossible situation by Marcus. He gives Marcus several opportunities to pull out of his scheme and he doesn't kill him when he has the opportunities. (which would be the wise thing to do considering how dangerous Marcus can be when he feels he's been wronged). I'm curious what Yardem was planning to do with Marcus in the long term, I wonder if he was hoping Cithrin could talk some sense into him when she returned.

[Racker]

Is this meant to be a spoiler thread? Considering some of the previous discussion it probably should be. To be safe...

Well I guess at this point in the thread, anyone reading will have already have read the book. But I figured since the quote I was replying to was in spoilers I would use the tags, just in case.

But, I think you're absolutely correct about Yardem. I think if the whole incident had been shown from his perspective, or an impartial third perspective, it would be very clear that he was in the right and Marcus really needed to be stopped from doing what he was going to do. Since the incident is told from Marcus' perspective, the facts become skewed by his irrationality.

I think the use of perspectives in the series is one of the things I really love about it. Geder, for instance, would just look like shy loser turned evil king if we did not see his perspective on the events in the story. It's very well handled, in my opinion.

[Jaxom 1974]

But, I think you're absolutely correct about Yardem. I think if the whole incident had been shown from his perspective, or an impartial third perspective, it would be very clear that he was in the right and Marcus really needed to be stopped from doing what he was going to do. Since the incident is told from Marcus' perspective, the facts become skewed by his irrationality.

While I agree with the assessment, this was the one item in the story that felt a little clunky to me in its execution...As we know Yardem makes an appearence in the Cithrin sample chapter at the end of the book, I can't wait to see his motivations fleshed out a little more...

[Maltaran]

I had it in mind that there were forty main bloodlines, sometimes with several branches. Geder, ferinstance, became Baron of Ebbingbaugh and his father's still Viscount of Riverhalm, but they're both Palliako. That kind of thing has been going on since dirt was young, so the relationships are all godawful complex. Only I didn't want the *books* to be godawful complex, so I didn't make that central to the plots. Kalliam is a small nuclear family to keep the plot from bogging down in whose cousin has which title and precedence over their nephews because of which title. Whether that was a smart trade-off is an open question, but it's the one I made.

Hopefully they're not as complicated as some of the families in the Holy Roman Empire got.

[TrackerNeil]

Actually, I wouldn't have minded a bit of complex familial stuff in TKB. Harry the Heir, in reviewing the book on Goodreads, said he thought the book was too short - not something you often hear about fantasy - and I tend to agree. Alot of political stuff happens in this novel - the king dies, there is a war of conquest, then a rebellion - and yet it's not examined as fully as it might be. I wouldn't have found such an examination boring but intriguing.

[Racker]

While I agree with the assessment, this was the one item in the story that felt a little clunky to me in its execution...As we know Yardem makes an appearence in the Cithrin sample chapter at the end of the book, I can't wait to see his motivations fleshed out a little more...

What about it felt clunky to you? It wasn't completely explained, of course, but that's to be expected in the second of five books.

On another note, I could have sworn that I read that this series was a trilogy when I started reading it last year...is my mind playing tricks on me or did Abraham increase the number of books?

[Maester Hodor]

I just finished reading The King's Blood, this book series is amazing! So I will go on a bit of a rant now... (spoilers everywhere)

Geder is definitely my favorite character. He's so complex. Sometimes he's nice, other times hes evil, other times he just acts like a psychopath. I always get happy when the next chapter I'm about to read is a Geder chapter. Master Kit and Marcus are great characters too.

Did anyone else notice in Book 1 that someone tells Geder a prophecy about Cithrin. It's been a while since I've read book 1, but it's something along the lines of "You shall meet the girl three times in your life, and each time she will give you what you desire" The first time they meet he steals some of her jewels, the 2nd time he gets sexy time from Cithrin, I wonder what he'll take from her the 3rd time they meet.

Another thing, I'm not mad at Yardem for betraying Marcus. Marcus was starting to go crazy and wanted to steal a lot of money from Cithrin's bank branch. Yardem liked his job and I think he did the right thing. If they ever meet again it's going to be epic. Marcus Wester vs Yardem's Ears.

[Migey]

Just finished the book.

I somehow managed to both enjoy it and put it down with a feeling that best equates to "ugh". I think this is because while it is a good and interesting book, a lot of it is, I feel, badly handled.

First of all, the pacing felt a bit off to me. It took me awhile to pin down what it was until I read the review of someone posting earlier in the thread, and I think it's simply that there isn't really any beginning or end, just a whole bunch of middle. This feels particuarly jarring since the first book did have a fairly solid end, albeit obviously only insofar as it rounds up the first book and sets up future books. The second book didn't seem to really have a beginning though, and certainly didn't really have an end. It feels like Abraham just sort of chopped the text off at a point in between interesting things happening and as a result the ending feels jarring and kind of abrupt; there was very little in the way of proper closure for me. It's definately a book that will become better when it has something after it to go to. A bit like ADWD, I felt not enough had happened to justify this being a full book.

And there is the odd thing for me. Because a lot did happen. I just don't feel it was handled particuarly well enough to make me feel like a lot happened. It feels a little like The Hunger Games to me in that many climactic and important bits arn't really dwelt on or expanded as far as they could be, and are instead covered very matter of factly, briskly, almost as if the narrative is doing it's duty but in fact really doesn't care and wants to rush past said climactic bits as fast as it can.

I also found myself disliking the way several of the characters had been written. Particuarly Marcus and Cithrin. Marcus is just boring, wandering aimlessly about, resting on his whole family and Cithrin attachment issues to hold his personality up but it buckles under the strain. His arc has also been dreadfully predictable so far - as soon as Kit turned up, it was obvious (to me at least) that Marcus would end up going with him, and even more so when Cithrin left without him. I really have no idea where all this ''I loved the Yardem/Marcus dynamic!'' is coming from. It never particuarly annoyed me in any way but I never found anything interesting, deep or amusing there - and nor did I get the impression there was supposed to be. The betrayal by Yardem was too blatantly predictable to have the effect it was perhaps supposed to, but at least Abraham did it sooner rather then later, meaning it had some impact, as I personally had it pegged down for book 4 or 5.

Kit also seemed to spend a lot of time doing very little, but at least we didn't have to have his PoV. Cithrin however didn't feel as interesting this time around, and this seems partially to me because she spent about half of her screen time doing things and being places that were important to the plot, as opposed to things that were important to Cithrin. I was also very confused by her having sex with Geder. Okay, he lied about the Vanai burning thing, so Cithrin may not place everyone on his shoulders, but it's not like it was a minor punting of a cat over a wall or stealing of an apple pie; his own decisions or not, he burnt down the city Cithrin grew up in, and I personally felt that it was odd that she didn't show at least some resentment or anger.

But enough complaining. For all it's faults, the book did engage and interest me, and I did at least enjoy reading about Clara, Geder, and Dawson. The latter two are particuarly interesting I feel, as they are characters that seen externally would be hated, yet seen from their own PoV are rather different.

Overall, I can't say I didn't enjoy the book, and it was good, but I felt it could have somehow been better. On the other hand, i'm not the one writing it, and assuming The Spider's War is any good, this will certainly have been a thoroughly competent bridging novel. And since it is Abraham, I am more then willing to extend the benefit of the doubt.

[williamjm]

The second book didn't seem to really have a beginning though, and certainly didn't really have an end.

Dawson might disagree with that...

I think the plotline in Antea did have a decent ending to this stage of the story, although I suppose Marcus and Kit's story did seem to end in the middle of a plotline.

[TrackerNeil]

And there is the odd thing for me. Because a lot did happen. I just don't feel it was handled particuarly well enough to make me feel like a lot happened. It feels a little like The Hunger Games to me in that many climactic and important bits arn't really dwelt on or expanded as far as they could be, and are instead covered very matter of factly, briskly, almost as if the narrative is doing it's duty but in fact really doesn't care and wants to rush past said climactic bits as fast as it can.

I also found myself disliking the way several of the characters had been written. Particuarly Marcus and Cithrin. Marcus is just boring, wandering aimlessly about, resting on his whole family and Cithrin attachment issues to hold his personality up but it buckles under the strain. His arc has also been dreadfully predictable so far - as soon as Kit turned up, it was obvious (to me at least) that Marcus would end up going with him, and even more so when Cithrin left without him. I really have no idea where all this ''I loved the Yardem/Marcus dynamic!'' is coming from. It never particuarly annoyed me in any way but I never found anything interesting, deep or amusing there - and nor did I get the impression there was supposed to be. The betrayal by Yardem was too blatantly predictable to have the effect it was perhaps supposed to, but at least Abraham did it sooner rather then later, meaning it had some impact, as I personally had it pegged down for book 4 or 5.

Yes, you don't often find yourself wishing a fantasy novel had been longer, but I wish this one had been. So much happened in Antea, and at such a breakneck pace, that I was left feeling a bit overwhelmed. A new king, a war, a rebellion...all neatly inside 500 pages?

RE: Marcus and Yardem. I feel as though I don't understand why those two are friends. I think about how well BSG's Ron Moore depicted the Adama-Tigh relationship, which I found interesting and completely understandable, and wish that Abraham had given Marcus-Yardem the same attention.

[Grack21]

I demand the third book be released a week ago.