The King's Blood by Daniel Abraham

[ljkeane]

I finished this last week and it's another excellent book from Daniel Abraham, he's definitely one of my favourite authors at the moment. The real strength of the book for me is how well rounded and interesting nearly all the characters are, I'm really looking forward to reading more about all of them in the next book.

Dawson's argument was more that Everything Has a Place, which is convenient for him since his place is one of privilege and power over those of lesser station. Meanwhile, all that talk about the importance of etiquette and rules in keeping us from violent savagery sounds hollow coming from a man who frequently resorts to violent savagery in politics.

In many ways Dawson is pretty unpleasant but I think it's pretty telling that he's by far the better option than Geder as potential controlling figures behind the throne go.

[russjass]

Things are the way they are for reason and we may not know what the reason is, but changing things could screw everything up. And for all his arrogance about his social class, he does appear to be willing to subsume his interests to those of the throne and the kingdom.

I do not know that he is willing to subsume his interests to those of throne and kingdom.

All of his motivations are selfish. Never once does he consider that priests ruling the empire is going to lead to suffering for all. All of his outrage is for the fact that the noble and ruling class, his class, has been made a mockery of. There are many points where he thinks "We gave it away", gave away the right to be supreme in fact and appearance, rather than gave away the ability to safegaurd the wellbeing of the population.

Another motivation for him is that he feels, perhaps rightly, that his best friends honour and legacy have been given to undeserving foreign preists. There is an element of nobleness in this motivation, but it is still his friends legacy, and personal.

There is no empathy and compassion for the country and people as a whole in his motivations. If he had been told that the preists running things behind the scenes would lead to wealth for all, better conditions and quality of life for all, improved justice etc etc, and even if he new that for fact, he would stiill have initiated armed insurection. He cannot handle anyone not of his class having power, as it diminishes himself in his own eyes

My two cents

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I do not know that he is willing to subsume his interests to those of throne and kingdom.

All of his motivations are selfish. Never once does he consider that priests ruling the empire is going to lead to suffering for all. All of his outrage is for the fact that the noble and ruling class, his class, has been made a mockery of. There are many points where he thinks "We gave it away", gave away the right to be supreme in fact and appearance, rather than gave away the ability to safegaurd the wellbeing of the population. Another motivation for him is that he feels, perhaps rightly, that his best friends honour and legacy have been given to undeserving foreign preists. There is an element of nobleness in this motivation, but it is still his friends legacy, and personal. There is no empathy and compassion for the country and people as a whole in his motivations. If he had been told that the preists running things behind the scenes would lead to wealth for all, better conditions and quality of life for all, improved justice etc etc, and even if he new that for fact, he would stiill have initiated armed insurection. He cannot handle anyone not of his class having power, as it diminishes himself in his own eyes

My two cents

You're right, he doesn't care about the people. But remember this society is decidedly pre-Enlightenment. He cares about The Kingdom, Order, Tradition, the Way Things Are. Basically the last three of Haidt's foundations of morality.

[russjass]

You're right, he doesn't care about the people. But remember this society is decidedly pre-Enlightenment. He cares about The Kingdom, Order, Tradition, the Way Things Are. Basically the last three of Haidt's foundations of morality.

I have not read Haidt, so i cant comment on how you are applying it here. But to me, he is only subsuming his own interests to throne and kingdom, because those are his interests

if he percieves the kingdom as weak, because of the dominance of the spider priests, then he must be forced to see himself as weak. That is what drove him, more than protecting the kingdown

[Mark Ryswell]

I love Yardem's character but for some reason(my fault entirely) I keep visualizing him as Scooby Doo with gravitas.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I love Yardem's character but for some reason(my fault entirely) I keep visualizing him as Scooby Doo with gravitas.

Now I can't get that image out of my head.

[Bold Berthold]

I love these books and can't imagine any fantasy fan not loving them (although I accept that some don't).

These books have absolutely given me that sense of wonder and fun I had when I first read The Hobbit, LOTR, and Dragonlance as a kid. Plus, they are very well written, have awesome characters, great dialogue, and various insights about being human. What more could you want?

(Like Abraham and The Belgariad, I don't re-read Dragonlance because I think that it will tarnish my fond feelings for it.)

For what it's worth, my other favorites are (in no partcular order) the first three books of ASOIAF, The Book of the New Sun, The Kingkiller Chronicles, The Long Price Quartet, and Dune. I really enjoyed but didn't love the first few Temeraire books, Abercrombie's books (a small part of me wishes Logen Ninefingers was in The Dagger and the Coin - although I suppose he might be in the form of Marcus Wester), Ender's Game, and Robin Hobbs' books.

[Garlan the Gallant]

Who thinks that Kit and Marcus' quest will end up leading to the unreachable dragon tower? I can only hope this is true.

Also, this was a great, great book.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I loved this book. Probably puts Abraham above Bakker as my favorite fantasy author. The fact that he's less batshit crazy (as far as I know) helps.

I do have a quibble about worldbuilding-

It's that the greatest empire in the world with an incredibly opulent capital and enough wealth for the noble class to each keep two luxurious, well furnished and staffed households running, is put at risk of starvation by keeping less than 6000 men in the field for one planting season. I understand that Abraham's trying to avoid the huge medieval fantasy armies and the food shortage might be an important plotline later, but if we assume that just 1% decrease in planting is a significant shock to the food supply, then we're talking an able bodies male population of 600,000 farmers, putting the total population at around 2-3 million. And that's assuming that women, children and old men can't do a little more work to pick up the slack or that it's only farmers serving in the army.

I don't know, maybe I've just been a consultant for way too long

I've also really warmed up to Dawson. Maybe it's having read the The Righteous Mind and The Better Angels of Our Nature makes me think he actually has a point. When he said that it never works when people design society from the ground up or that rules and etiquette keep us from descending into violent savagery, I felt almost like I was reading Haidt or Pinker talking about the Middle Ages.

As said, the overall population is apparently quite small. This is true in Antea and the other nations. Consider that Marcus, who has not lived in Porte Oliva for long, is already recognized as a citizen by essentially everyone. Also, when they are redistributing the kingdoms, there are only 40 noble families in Antea. Frankly this bothered me as well, because although I understand that Abraham doesn't want to fall victim to "escalating armies" in fantasy, there's a lower limit on realistic populations. You can't have the "greatest city in the world" without a population in the tens of thousands, even in those days, and having only 40 noble families does not square with Dawson having access to dozens of knights in even his small army. Perhaps they were referencing high nobility only?

A nitpick or two from me:

A question first: Who did Yardem sell Marcus to? Had we seen this character already?

Nitpicks:

1. How did Kit find Marcus, and how did he incapacitate the guards? I don't really have a problem with these things happening, I just think it was really out of left field (though predictable) in terms of timing, and it was jolting that Marcus didn't even ask what happened to the men who held him captive.

2. I found the greatly increased presence of religion in this novel compared to TDP a bit jarring.

3. Is Cithrin not *at all* worried about pregnancy?

I loved the book though, especially Geder's final scenes where he interprets Cithrins cold missive as a love letter. He is an understandable character but at the same time he is dangerously unhinged.

[polishgenius]

A question first: Who did Yardem sell Marcus to? Had we seen this character already?

Nitpicks:

1. How did Kit find Marcus, and how did he incapacitate the guards? I don't really have a problem with these things happening, I just think it was really out of left field (though predictable) in terms of timing, and it was jolting that Marcus didn't even ask what happened to the men who held him captive.

2. I found the greatly increased presence of religion in this novel compared to TDP a bit jarring.

3. Is Cithrin not *at all* worried about pregnancy?

I loved the book though, especially Geder's final scenes where he interprets Cithrins cold missive as a love letter. He is an understandable character but at the same time he is dangerously unhinged.

I don't have the book to hand, but he had definitely been seen before - was he the guy who helped find the pirate's location?

For the nitpicks:

1) I presumed he used his magic. The timing was awfully convenient - it took Kit bloody ages to get to Port Olivia compared to Cithrin's journey the other way complete with detour- but it wasn't immediate, I took it that Marcus had been there for some time. I didn't read anything odd in him not asking after his captors, though; I don't think it was anywhere implied that they were guarding him the whole time.

3) I seem to recall this being covered (or handwaved at least) in book 1 via a quick conversation and a mention of special teas, but I could be importing that from... well, many fantasy novels.

[Maltaran]

For 1), Yardem might have told Kit - Yardem knew he was in town and wanted to take Marcus off somewhere. I guess he just told the guards to let Marcus go - we know he can do that with his spiders.

As for 2), well, Geder's priests are becoming increasingly involved in Antean politics, plus a wedding always needs a priest.

3) She is a half-breed, and it was said that some combinations are sterile - maybe Cinnae/Firstblood is one?

Edit to fix tags

[mormont]

a small part of me wishes Logen Ninefingers was in The Dagger and the Coin - although I suppose he might be in the form of Marcus Wester

Oh, no, no. Marcus Wester = Mal Reynolds. Really, should be obvious.

[TrackerNeil]

(I don't feel like looking up the spoiler tags, so I'll keep this post spoiler-free.)

I confess I feel divided about The Dagger and the Coin. I respect Abraham's focus on characters, and yet I think he does not always do so successfully. Cithrin and Geder are pretty fully realized, but Marcus feels rather aimless and one-note. Maybe that was Abraham's goal, but in my view that's not an accomplishment to admire.

Also, the world of The Dagger and the Coin feels oddly empty, as if the only occurrences that matter are the ones caused by the main characters. Only Dawson Kalliam or Geder Palliako affect the Antean political situation; the other nobles and power brokers are mere background and do not complicate the characters' actions in any meaningful way. Ideally, characters should appear in a world that is moving all around them, and their choices should be influenced or opposed even by the actions of minor characters.

[Jaxom 1974]

I swear I posted in this thread the other day...long winded. Spoiler tags. Now it's not here. Damn it. What did I write...?

[PaulineMRoss]

I swear I posted in this thread the other day...long winded. Spoiler tags. Now it's not here. Damn it. What did I write...?

You did - 2 messages, a damn-that-was-good one and a long one, both gone. Luckily, I get the email notifications :-) Here's what you said (spoiler tags probably lost, sorry I don't know how to add them back in):

[ETA: removed the actual quote to avoid confusion, as Maurice has sensibly reposted it under his own name further on]

[PaulineMRoss]

In other news: Caliban's War has just popped up on my Kindle. Dammit, I love it when that happens. Solved my what-shall-I-read-next dilemma. <Does happy dance>

[russjass]

You did - 2 messages, a damn-that-was-good one and a long one, both gone. Luckily, I get the email notifications :-) Here's what you said (spoiler tags probably lost, sorry I don't know how to add them back in):

And now to the comments:

------------ QUOTE ----------

I do not know that he is willing to subsume his interests to those of throne and kingdom.

There is no empathy and compassion for the country and people as a whole in his motivations. If he had been told that the preists running things behind the scenes would lead to wealth for all, better conditions and quality of life for all, improved justice etc etc, and even if he new that for fact, he would stiill have initiated armed insurection. He cannot handle anyone not of his class having power, as it diminishes himself in his own eyes

-----------------------------

While I get where you're going, I do not think Dawson would ever get behind the Priests, even if he was made to understand it would elevate his class more. He's quite explicit during his planning session for killing Geder that it's their foreigness that is the problem. If member of the upper class, his class, is to eff things up, then it should be by their own making.

It was me that wrote this, so I do not know what has happened to Maurices post.

And I do agree with you. The point I was trying to make was that there was no nobility in Dawsons actions, it was all driven by selfishness and prejudice.

[mormont]

It was me that wrote this, so I do not know what has happened to Maurices post.

And I do agree with you. The point I was trying to make was that there was no nobility in Dawsons actions, it was all driven by selfishness and prejudice.

Oh, I'm not sure about selfishness. I think Dawson is a True Believer: he doesn't just use his beliefs as a justification for a social order that happens to suit him. In fact, I'd suggest that if Dawson really were selfish, he'd be in a stronger position politically at the start of the series, and might even have wound up as regent himself. There's a suggestion - more than that, really - that it's his adherence to his beliefs that's cost him political favour, and that restrains him from doing all he might in trying to get it back.

I'm convinced that Dawson cares more about the 'rightness' of things than about his own fortunes (though of course, he'd never have had that belief - or if you prefer, that prejudice - instilled in him if he hadn't been born a noble). The things he does in TKB seem to reflect that. The selfish road would have been to turn his closeness to Geder into preferment for himself.

[Jaxom 1974]

Well thank you very much, Pauline!

And russjass, your part was the part I'd quoted. The rest is pure me, for better or worse. :P

Let me put some of what I said in my own post so it isn't confused as someone else. I'd hate for someone to take issue with what I said and think it was Pauline's words...

1. Cithrin: I can't always get my head around her. Every time I think I'm finally coming around to putting her near the top of my list of characters I want to do well, she does something and I just think, "Oh, Honey..."

2. Geder: I can't like him. I can't hate him. I can't even find it in myself to pity him. He's a pawn and nothing more. That Baraship (sp?) considers him the chosen one? I can't help thinking that that will mean in the end, when Geder goes to meet the Goddess, by "chosen one" they mean "lunch"...

3. Dawson: Somehow it was inevitable, but you almost though he was going to pull through somehow...that he didn't use his final moments to attempt to speak out truths and rattle the masses, instead seeking to simply anger Geder disappointed me.

4. Clara: My favorite character by far. I cannot wait to see how she claws back on top and, in turn, become the force we know she can be. Will Vincen Coe take over as the POV lost from Dawson? Or will it be Jorey? Somehow, there has to be one to counterbalance Clara's, right?

5. Yardem: Was totally out of left field when it happened. I don't have a problem with the act, just the execution of it. Did he do what he did simply to protect Wester? Or does he know something else? His prescence within the sample Cithrin chapter at the back of the book has me wondering...

6. Wester and Kit: This has the potential to be a stand out portion of the next book and I hope it delivers...

[Hereward]

Having been incredibly excited about getting my hands on this, Real Life meant it was ages until I could actually start it, but it hasn't taken long to finish it. What a fantastic book!

I shall miss Dawson though. I agree with mormont that he was a True Believer. I also thought it interesting while reading how, despite his irascible nature and disdain, I automatically sympathised with him and instinctively took his good intentions for granted. I also remembered how unpopular he was on the board. Must be because I'm still more conservative than I like to admit!

Anyway, Daniel Abraham is now probably my favourite author still writing and I cannot wait for the next book.