What were the Baratheon bannermen thinking?

[The Sleeper]

Renly for one, did not know or care that Joffrey was a bastard. Other than that, in the appendix makes a distinction of houses sworn to Storm's End and houses sworn to Dragonstone. The Stromlands were sworn to Storm's End.

[Lizaveta Martell]

Renly had a good claim, it just wasn't based on blood. That claim was "I'm strong, popular and I'm going to win". Bam! Done.

[Ragnorak]

Renly was already plotting with the Tyrels to have Robert put Cersei aside for Margaery. So he and Loras (and most probably the Queen of Thorns) already had the groundwork laid for a Queen Margaery with all the anti-Lannister support ready. They just substituted Renly for Robert and went ahead with plan.

Robert chose Renly for Storm's End when by rights it should have gone to Stannis. There were good reasons for that but it is a sufficient pretext for Renly to claim Robert chose him and it also made the Stom Lords beholden to Renly not Stannis.

Lannisters were raiding the Riverlands before the war actually started. Every Lord with half a brain knew Ned Stark was not conspiring to steal the throne. So if your lands can be raided with impunity and you can be as honorable as Ned Stark and still get beheaded just about any King starts looking like a better alternative.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

The bannermen had no choice. They were required by feudel oath to follow their leige lord in everything. If Renly lost they would likely be pardoned for their peace and if he won and they didn't join him they'd be destroyed for disobeying their leige lord

[Dr. Pepper]

Agree with most of what you say, but Renly being loved by the people helps, ok he is still being played by the Tyrells but he is a person they can back; and dont need to sell him to the public like dour Stannis and psycho Joff. Joff and Stannis have better claims but if you are going to overthrow a King it is better to do it with a popular candidate, the Tyrells play a blinder in PR when they arrive at KL.

I guarantee you that if Stannis had been the single brother and Renly the married one, they would have backed Stannis if he accepted a marriage with Margaery. The Tyrell's don't give a crap whether the person they back is likeable or not. They can deal with the likeability factor later....much like they did with Joffrey. Renly being charismatic helped, but it was not at all the deciding factor in the Tyrell support. The deciding factor was that Renly was eligible to be married.

I'm pretty sure Stannis was still Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. Robert already gave Storm's End to his younger brother, he couldn't also strip Stannis of that title. That's why Stannis was so furious that they'd all gone to Renly.

No, Stannis was Lord of Dragonstone, Renly lord of Storm's End. They are there own separate areas and each have their own vassals. Stannis takes claim of Storm's End when he assassinates Cortnay Penrose, who had been holding it as castellan for Renly.

Stannis was furious at Robert for giving Renly Storm's End, the traditional seat of the Baratheon heir. But Robert does give Stannis Dragonstone, which was the seat of the crown heir of the Targaryen reign. It had significance that Stannis didn't recognize.

[David Selig]

I guarantee you that if Stannis had been the single brother and Renly the married one, they would have backed Stannis if he accepted a marriage with Margaery. The Tyrell's don't give a crap whether the person they back is likeable or not. They can deal with the likeability factor later....much like they did with Joffrey. Renly being charismatic helped, but it was not at all the deciding factor in the Tyrell support. The deciding factor was that Renly was eligible to be married.

I really doubt this. Remember that Mace Tyrell was leading the siege of Storm's End during Robert's rebellion and as a result Stannis has a grudge against him, and this was well known.

Then there's also the Renly - Loras relationship to consider. LF mentioned that Loras is Mace's favourite child and he no doubt influenced him a lot in choosing to back Renly.

[mcb]

The bannermen had no choice. They were required by feudel oath to follow their leige lord in everything. If Renly lost they would likely be pardoned for their peace and if he won and they didn't join him they'd be destroyed for disobeying their leige lord

Actually, as we've seen, the loser's vassals are held responsible, too, like for example Lord Tytos Blackwood. They pay with money, lands and hostages.

[Dr. Pepper]

I really doubt this. Remember that Mace Tyrell was leading the siege of Storm's End during Robert's rebellion and as a result Stannis has a grudge against him, and this was well known.

Then there's also the Renly - Loras relationship to consider. LF mentioned that Loras is Mace's favourite child and he no doubt influenced him a lot in choosing to back Renly.

Stannis most certainly would have put aside old grudges if an alliance that came with an army 100,000 strong. He puts aside grudges for Renly's former bannermen, doesn't he? Mace Tyrell isn't exactly calling all the shots. Lady Olenna seems to be the schemer who gets things done to move the family closer to the throne. I'm sure Loras influenced Renly, but I highly doubt he influenced Lady Olenna or even Mace. It was helpful that Loras and Renly already had a relationship, but doubtful that it was a deciding factor.

[David Selig]

Yeah, but the point is - why help make a king a man someone who has a long standing grudge against you and is well known for not forgetting and forgiving easily? Mace would be better off supporting another claimant or even present his own claim for the Iron Throne, especially given that Stannis had very small army of his own

It was Mace calling the shots, not Olenna, she was against supporting Renly's claim. And LF and Tyrion both said that Loras was the key to winning Mace's support when discussing what to do after Renly's death.

[Noimporta]

I really doubt this. Remember that Mace Tyrell was leading the siege of Storm's End during Robert's rebellion and as a result Stannis has a grudge against him, and this was well known.

Does he? I don't remember him ever talking about Mace Tyrell (except one mention when remembering the siege), and Stannis is not a man to shut up about his grudges, no matter how old they are.

[LuisDantas]

It is really fairly simple.

There is some variation among the vassal Houses and landed knights, but most act out of some combination of political opportunity and belief or admiration or their leaders. Having lived through or at least learned about the Blackfyre and Robert Rebellions, they are also all too aware of the fragility and futility of succession laws. Above all, they realize or have learned that both Stannis and Joffrey are rotten and undeserving of the Throne.

Therefore, in the absence of free majority elections, they go for the next best thing and say, essentially, "screw those silly succession laws. Why must I choose between two bad rulers when the time is ripe for supporting a good one instead?"

Of course that changed when Stannis murdered Renly. Now they are only in it for the glory, gold, vengeance and lands. And it applies to both sides, regardless of whether they ended up supporting Red Barbecue party or Red Wedding party.

One wonders if that loss won't bite Stannis back as it is biting the Lannisters. I think it will.

[StannisandDaeny]

The good king Renly's first conduct: let's starve out King's Landing.

[Winterfell is Burning]

The good king Renly's first conduct: let's starve out King's Landing.

Second one: While the rest of the realm is at war or starving to death- or both- let's make a tournament and waste resources and time.

Third: openly laugh and make jokes about murdering his brother, the same one that saved his life during Robert's Rebellion from the same man that is now his Hand of the King.

Yeah, what a terrific guy he was. The realm will certainly miss him a lot.

[mcb]

Second one: While the rest of the realm is at war or starving to death- or both- let's make a tournament and waste resources and time.

Third: openly laugh and make jokes about murdering his brother, the same one that saved his life during Robert's Rebellion from the same man that is now his Hand of the King.

First: is joking about killing one's brother really that much worse than actually killing one's brother? Secondly: Stannis' attitude was exactly the same: "strike your banners... otherwise, I shall destroy you". He's at least as vicious as Renly. Thirdly: killing someone in battle isn't, conventionally, called a murder. To slit one's throat in his own tent, however...

Yeah, what a terrific guy he was. The realm will certainly miss him a lot.

Does anyone really call Renly a terrific guy? He was a Baratheon, a true brother to Robert and Stannis, or, to put it more succinctly, a prick. I won't mourn him, just like I wouldn't mourn Stannis, had he failed to murder his brother and then perished in the field.

[LuisDantas]

While it is hardly sympathetic to refuse food to King's Landing, it must be understood that there is a point to it as well.

The flat fact is that Renly's forces could only decide to starve King's Landing because King's Landing was dependent on the Reach for food in the first place. It is a matter of autonomy and sovereignity. In a very literal sense, the Reach makes King's Landing continued survival (or at least, confortable continued survival) possible. And as such, it ought to have that much weightier a vote about who should wear the crown.

It is no less legitimate a political stand than the raising of armies itself. If anything, it is a more gradual and less violent measure.

[Castel]

The bannermen had no choice. They were required by feudel oath to follow their leige lord in everything. If Renly lost they would likely be pardoned for their peace and if he won and they didn't join him they'd be destroyed for disobeying their leige lord

This. Because of the way the system is set up your liege lord can come ahead of your king. See what happened to that house that stayed loyal to the Targs when Hoster Tully rebelled. They were utterly destroyed.

Really, it's simple for everyone else, Renly is a nice guy, the Lannisters are weak and he has Highgarden. There's never been a better opportunity to advance.

I don't understand why people assume that everyone will have a healthy respect for the law, especially when there is a glaring flaw in any argument anyone can make in defense of it, it begins with "A" and rhymes with "naegon".

Stannis most certainly would have put aside old grudges if an alliance that came with an army 100,000 strong. He puts aside grudges for Renly's former bannermen, doesn't he? Mace Tyrell isn't exactly calling all the shots. Lady Olenna seems to be the schemer who gets things done to move the family closer to the throne. I'm sure Loras influenced Renly, but I highly doubt he influenced Lady Olenna or even Mace. It was helpful that Loras and Renly already had a relationship, but doubtful that it was a deciding factor.

Uh, no. Mace still has the power. It was Mace that decided that Margaery should marry Renly, she was against it. Lady Olenna's power lies in what she can convince Mace to do or behind his back. If he is set, like he was on the Margaery thing, that is what is going to happen. As for Stannis forgiving the Tyrells, no one wants a king that gave his forgiveness at desperate times, I mean, look at what the Tyrells got out of the deal with the Lannisters, positions in the council and Kingsguard, I'm not really sure that Stannis would put a Tyrell in the most prestigious organization in Westeros. What is the point of pressing the claim of a man that will thank you through gritted teeth and do as little as he can for you? That is the impression that Stannis gives.

Not to mention that he is older and so may not give an heir. And then there's purely human considerations, like whether Mace would want his daughter married to Stannis.

[Talleyrand]

Second one: While the rest of the realm is at war or starving to death- or both- let's make a tournament and waste resources and time.

Which is a hell of a better stratagem than Stannis has shown. At the start of the war Tywin is the only one who is any threat to Renly's claim, short of Deus ex machina. The longer Renly waits in the south is the more men Tywin loses to Robb, Brotherhood, desertion and disease - decreasing his threat. Every day King's Landing lacks the Reach's bread the more the support of the people turns against the Lannisters and are more likely to welcome Renly, as shown when the Tyrells brought food into the city after Blackwater.

Compare this to Stannis who, if we take his word that he didn't know about shadowbaby being sent to take care of Renly, honestly thought he could take on Renly's 80,000 with his 5,000 when he set sail from Dragonstone.

Also I fail to see how the tourneys are a bad thing. It allows his men to test their skill while they wait, establishing the good fighter who might better serve as bodyguards or fighting in the Van.

[jlk7e]

See what happened to that house that stayed loyal to the Targs when Hoster Tully rebelled. They were utterly destroyed.

What are you talking about? Hoster did some nasty stuff to House Goodbrook, but they survived - Lymond Goodbrook is even a buddy of Edmure's. And the Darrys and Mootons also stayed loyal to the Targaryens without being utterly destroyed.

[Talleyrand]

This. Because of the way the system is set up your liege lord can come ahead of your king. See what happened to that house that stayed loyal to the Targs when Hoster Tully rebelled. They were utterly destroyed.

No they weren't. Houses Darry, Ryger and Mooton were the Riverland loyalists and still exist during the series.

And a Ryger is the master-at-arms at Riverrun.

[Castel]

What are you talking about? Hoster did some nasty stuff to House Goodbrook, but they survived - Lymond Goodbrook is even a buddy of Edmure's. And the Darrys and Mootons also stayed loyal to the Targaryens without being utterly destroyed.

Really I recall someone going through the ruins and commenting that Hoster Tully "descended on them with fire and sword" I'm pretty sure the place is abandoned...

I'll check, but I think the perils of going against your liege lord where show there.