Roose [Book Spoilers]

[never trust a bard]

In reading the book I got the impression that Bolton was swayed by the letter sent by Tywin, I recall a scene where Tywin tells his son that wars aren't always won with swords.

I remember this, but I thought it was he wrote the letter to the Freys that kicked off the RW.

[never trust a bard]

Totally unrelated, but the above post made me a Freerider and I am very excited about that.

[SerMixalot]

I would love a timeline on the Ramsey, Roose betrayal. Would clarify things in my head on the betrayal.

Especially when they seem to diverge between the book and the series.

In the book Ramsey betrayed Robb by killing Ser Rodrik (the tipping point where conspiring became action), so clearly Ramsey had planned it earlier. I think we can assume that Ramsey did it at his fathers behest. So where prior to this did Roose decide to Betray Robb, this was before B &R were killed, before Karstack was beheaded, before Cat let JL free, before Robb got married. (I may have the timeline off here, rereading ACoK right now so will amend this in my mind.

In the TV show, No active steps have been taken yet where Roose has betrayed Robb, B&R have been killed-Rodriks death is at the hands of Theon, Cat is going to do something with JS, which will likely lead shortly to Karstaks beheading and robbs wedding

Now if Ramsey as I would presume is going to take winterfell soon, the Roose would already have made his decision as none of the assumed triggers have happened yet, and he would have had to communicate his wishes to Ramsey. And as has been established (?) communication by ravens can only be between castles. So Roose will have to have made his decision long before Ramsey shows up at Winterfell.

Unless Ramsey's actions are not under Roose's control, which makes for some interesting considerations.

[Frumpus]

Given all of the changes by the show, it's possible that Roose won't even change sides at all.

[SerMixalot]

Totally unrelated, but the above post made me a Freerider and I am very excited about that.

When I was a freerider I always thought freeloader in my head.

[So1ar]

Given all of the changes by the show, it's possible that Roose won't even change sides at all.

nah he'll change. that look he gave jeyne when robb wanted to talk to her instead of himself showed that he isn't happy with the way robb is treating his lords. i think the show will make it more obvious that roose will betray robb than it was in the books. they show has a way of making things a lot more obvious than it was in the books: the dragons hatching, drogo dying, the two bodies were the orphan boys, etc.

[SerMixalot]

TV has to make it more obvious than in the books, Honestly the 1st reading through the books I couldnt keep track of Bolton, Karstack, Umber, Manderlay etc etc etc to remember that it was Bolton who betrays robb. HBO is making Bolton a bigger character so it is obvious (for those who read the books) and I guess not so obvious to those who havent read the book. Should work as a dramatic event on the TV show though and well done for the most part so far.

[Jamie Lannister]

Letting Ramsay deal Robb the killing blow at the RW might be the sort of deviation they'd go for.

[Mulled Wino]

Didnt the Northeners loose their son's to avenge someone who is dead(Ned)?

if karstark kills jamie, sansa and arya (as far as they know) automatically die. cuz they are alive right now, unlike rickard's kids

[never trust a bard]

Letting Ramsay deal Robb the killing blow at the RW might be the sort of deviation they'd go for.

While I do love the Ramsay switch-a-roo at Winterfell, all I really NEED from Ramsey is some flaying of a certain shit-head.

[jarl the climber]

IMO in the books Roose played it safe after fighting Tywin near the Ruby Ford, it was Robb's marriage and Stannis's loss at the Blackwater that

drove him to make his own deal with Tywin. From what Roose said to Jamie bending the knee was always an option for Robb he was just to proud.

[sarah.jenice]

I think Roose's words in Dance about boy lords being the ruin of any house were telling that he was at least alway considering his options of not following a boy king and looking for any opportunities that arrose. Like others have said, I think Robb losing the North, his two younger brothers/heirs, marrying Jeyne and ruining the Frey alliance and Stannis loss in the Battle of the Blackwater totally sealed the deal for him. Even though we haven't learned all of the details at that point, Roose has already flipped sides by Arya's last chapter in Clash. He goes to hunt wolves and all of the Freys that are there with him are completely not on Robb's side. That one Frey boy who was betrothed to Arya cries about how he can't marry his princess anymore to Arya, and she tells him that she hopes his princess dies not knowing that it is her.

The thing that makes it the least clear for me is the timeline with Ramsay sacking Winterfell. I don't think he did that without his father's knowledge so maybe Roose actually decided to flip sides the moment Robb lost the North and happily conspired with his son to rid the North of the as many of the remaining forces loyal to the Starks.

In the show, it seems less clear as to when it will happen, but I don't think they can not have the betrayal occur.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Letting Ramsay deal Robb the killing blow at the RW might be the sort of deviation they'd go for.

This would really piss me off

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Two Bolton things we need to see on the show.

-Roose bathing in leeches

-The actual flayed man banner. Creepiest flag of all time.

[House Snow]

TV has to make it more obvious than in the books, Honestly the 1st reading through the books I couldnt keep track of Bolton, Karstack, Umber, Manderlay etc etc etc to remember that it was Bolton who betrays robb. HBO is making Bolton a bigger character so it is obvious (for those who read the books) and I guess not so obvious to those who havent read the book. Should work as a dramatic event on the TV show though and well done for the most part so far.

I would also add that TV show needs to have some internal logic that a book doesn't. GRRM can explain something whenever he wants, where the show need to connect the dots. Also things are obviously alot more obvious to us book readers, than to nonreaders.

[Bride of Winter]

Two Bolton things we need to see on the show.

-Roose bathing in leeches

-The actual flayed man banner. Creepiest flag of all time.

YES to both of these. especially leeches. there's a disappointing lack of leeches.

[Sir Cadogan]

The new actor is great. He's been a bit mysterious so far, but like someone else mentioned on another topic, there's this "vampiresque" aura around him that suits him pretty well.

There's this combination of voice, appearance and presence on Michael McElhatton that aren't there just for the sake of having a Roose Bolton on screen. We'll be having the Leech Lord. For sure.

[WITCHKING]

if karstark kills jamie, sansa and arya (as far as they know) automatically die. cuz they are alive right now, unlike rickard's kids

Rickard's kids were alive and they die to get revenge for Ned's death....

[greywindsrage]

It seems like people are pretty undecided on when exactly Roose decided to switch sides in the series.

Something that really caught my eye was the scene where after all of Robb's bannermen left, Roose stayed for a bit, but left as Robb chose to talk to Jeyne instead. Based off of that, I'm guessing they're going to try to show that Roose was on Robb's side, but is gradually being pushed towards betraying him. What do you think of this change? Do you think in the series, Roose was always planning on betraying him, or do you think that he decided to switch sides later after it seemed like Robb was losing?

Personally, I like having more depth on Roose's side, but I think the scene where Robb ignored Roose for Jeyne was plain idiotic on a level unrealistic even for Robb. He's generally supposed to have his head in the right place except for the sudden marriage. This dragged out love story is making him look a lot more dumb than he needs to be. Not to mention, if they simply make a comment in passing about the Boltons and Starks having been enemies for 10,000 years, they wouldn't have to make it look like Robb is begging for the Boltons' betrayal.

Of course, this brings the question of what exactly his role was in the Sack of Winterfell, which happened before the Jeyne mess in both the series and show.

But for the most part, I'm guessing the show is taking the side of Robb driving Roose to betray. Which, although it's quite possible, isn't very nice to watch unfold before your eyes.

So my question is, when do you think Roose chose to betray Robb in the books, and do you think they're going about it right in the show?

He mentions sending Ramsay to Winterfell so he probably had it in his mind before that scene.

[Dread Pirate Euron]

Kate let the kingslayer escaped to save her daughters.The Starks dont care about the other Northeners , just about themselfs.Stark children are precious, Karstack children are not...Bolton was 100% right to betrayed such a family...

Well there is a difference between Royal children and Noble children. One is literally worth more than the other.