[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 5

[Suzanna Stormborn]

GRRM is very good at giving characters big plans and hopes and then crushing them.

So in case of Greyjoys - of course they might plan for one thing and end with totally different results, for instance:

Vic - hopes to get Danny and Dragons - might end up as a food for those dragons right there in Mereen - or he might take 1 or 2 dragons back to Westeros hoping to use them against his brother - only to be outwitted by Euron.

Euron - also hopes to get Danny and Dragons - and might get at least on of them, but can also end up destroyed/outsmarted by Vic or Aeron.

Asha - might do some trick on the isle or later to save Theon - hoping to use him for Kingsmot #2 - but things may go totally into different direction (speaking of Theons sacrifice - I guess we all expect more or less 2 possible developments during the Sacrifice -

1- Stannis is about to sacrifice Theon but Bran intervines and somehow gets Theon saved

or

2- Theon is sacrificed and his "kingsblood" benefits Bran in some magical way.

- I want to add 3rd possibility - what if on the isle Bran communicates exclusively with Theon (that is neither Stannis or anyone else will know about Brann after the "ceremony") and what if the entire isle ceremony is a trick somehow concocted by Asha to save his brother? Most people expect her plan to fail or simply be abandoned after the magical involvement of Bran - but what if she will go on with the plan - even after Theon-Brann communication session?

Her intention to use Theon for Kingsmoth #2 might affect certain developments in TWOW - whether she will really able to do this - its another matter.

+ by the way speaking of Vic and Barrystan - the spoiler chapter shows Barrystan getting quite optimistic after hearing of Ironborn fighting on their side - it is quite possible that this optimism is premature - i.e. after the Battle is over and Victarion discovers that Danny is gone he might simply bind the dragons and sails away, but not before massacring Barrystan and some Dannys supporters

Does Barristan have any history in Westeros with Vic or Euron? Seems like the ironborn weren't much for going to tourneys and stuff in KL. I don't remember hearing about them much in the good ole day stories.

[DExit]

Does Barristan have any history in Westeros with Vic or Euron? Seems like the ironborn weren't much for going to tourneys and stuff in KL. I don't remember hearing about them much in the good ole day stories.

As a pardoned member of the kingsguard he would be with Robert during Bolon's first. this means he has fought Ironborn but was not present when Stan gave Vic that crushing defeat.

[Mulled Wino]

Two points concerning theon and possibility of new kingsmot

1.

Regarding Ironborn not wanting / not caring about Theon anymore..

There have been numerous examples even from the latest history of many cauntries of the world when, due to change of political climate, people, politicians who were totally ignored, disgraced and even hated yesterday, suddenly are getting popular and are sought after as possible leaders and "saviours of the nation".

It only takes time and arrival of favourable political, sometimes social, climate. So in our case if Eurons rule of terror reaches a boiling point , when a sufficient number of Ironborn have doubts/regrets about having elected him + if Vic is dead and if they are mysogynic enough to ignore Ashas claim - then theon - even mutilated and half-crazy can be an acceptable candidacy - look for instance at ancient Rome - after killing crazy Caligula, people were more than happy to elect bumbling dim-wit Claudius as his successor.

+ even if Vic is still alive and they are ok with a possibility of Asha as a ruler - still technically only Theon might have a "legal" excuse to challenge Euron.

Does not similar thing happen during many modern presidential elections? Say you were big fan of a candidate Mr. X and you hated Mr. Y. There is also candidate Mr. Z - about whom you don't care much, but he is still better than Mr. Y.

Mr. X lost primaries, first round or whatever system you have, so now even if Mr. X is still your preferred candidate, the only legal way for you to prevent election or re-election of the hated Mr. Y is to support Mr. Z.

Kingsmot seems to be the only legal way to end the rule of our Mr. Y - Euron, and Theon is of course our Mr. Z in this case.

2.

let's not forget another thing - Theon might be needed not only for the case when he wins the Kingsmot, but even in case when we need a pretext to call another kingmot. To put it simple, he might be just an excuse to call Kingsmot #2 , even if the eventuall intent is to have Vic or Asha elected there. Because only he can call it, they can not.

What Euron rule of terror? Last I checked he was making allies and kicking ass.

A greyjoy doesnt have to rule the islands, Im quite sure that there would be many more ideal candidates from the islands than Theon.

While Im sure Damphair could conceivably back Theon, there are very few others that would. Most of Asha's supporters (excluding the Reader) are killed and theon had minimal if any respect amongst the rest of the ironborn. He's seen as an outsider, he's a cripple, he has no money for bribes/respect at a kingsmoot, he's a loser, he probably no longer has a penis, and he's physically and mentally weak.

I know people are dying for theon to finish his redemption and have a happy ending, I just dont see it happening as him being elected king of the iron islands at a second kingsmoot. Not realistically. And i have no interest in reading about it, there's so much more going on with the ironborn to waste multiple chapters on another one.

Im sure I'm aware that history is littered with examples of candidates that won that were longshots. Just as I'm sure you're aware that history has examples beyond count of people not winning elections that have no business winning them.

[Razha]

Im sure I'm aware that history is littered with examples of candidates that won that were longshots. Just as I'm sure you're aware that history has examples beyond count of people not winning elections that have no business winning them.

Don't you think you are over-simplifying now?

Entire Iron Islands storyline has been revolving around several members of Greyjoy family trying to get an on the throne. Just because you don't like idea (or don't like Theon) it does not mean it could not happen.

[Mulled Wino]

Don't you think you are over-simplifying now?

Entire Iron Islands storyline has been revolving around several members of Greyjoy family trying to get an on the throne. Just because you don't like idea (or don't like Theon) it does not mean it could not happen.

And others, like the non Greyjoys who were at kingsmoot. The storyline has also revolved around how the itonborn ONLY follow strength and are a very different/ much more rigidly structured culture than everywhere else. I cant buy it. All the sudden they become liberal ad follow a cripple and a female.

The real issue I have is that I think its pretty clear that the iron islands already have their king. The king of the iron islands will be absorbed into the storyline of the great battle and the battles for westeros on one side or the other.

If (and when) Euron loses power, it would make much more sense that it's because he gets killed rather than another kingsmoot which would take an entire book to settle.

Lets think about this....Vic is in Mereen, Euron is reaving and Asha and Theon are captives. So they would have to get away from Stannis, find ships (Mormonts burned all their ships), make it to the Islands, find damphair, call a kingsmoot, wait for Euron (who wouldnt give a shi t and never attend) and Vic. All the while Asha and Theon would have to recruit while offerring pretty much nothing and Euron and Vic would have to completely blow it (which Vic might be doing right now). If either of those guys show up with a dragon, theon is done. They are both currently doing what they do, while Theon and Asha are doing jack shi t.

If the series was infinitely long, I could be into it, much later down the road.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

And others, like the non Greyjoys who were at kingsmoot. The storyline has also revolved around how the itonborn ONLY follow strength and are a very different/ much more rigidly structured culture than everywhere else. I cant buy it. All the sudden they become liberal ad follow a cripple and a female.

The real issue I have is that I think its pretty clear that the iron islands already have their king. The king of the iron islands will be absorbed into the storyline of the great battle and the battles for westeros on one side or the other.

If (and when) Euron loses power, it would make much more sense that it's because he gets killed rather than another kingsmoot which would take an entire book to settle.

Lets think about this....Vic is in Mereen, Euron is reaving and Asha and Theon are captives. So they would have to get away from Stannis, find ships (Mormonts burned all their ships), make it to the Islands, find damphair, call a kingsmoot, wait for Euron (who wouldnt give a shi t and never attend) and Vic. All the while Asha and Theon would have to recruit while offerring pretty much nothing and Euron and Vic would have to completely blow it (which Vic might be doing right now). If either of those guys show up with a dragon, theon is done. They are both currently doing what they do, while Theon and Asha are doing jack shi t.

If the series was infinitely long, I could be into it, much later down the road.

Right that's what I was saying earlier about there not being another kingsmoot. I just dont think Euron is going to allow it flat out. And Asha and Theon really don't have enough supporters right now to get back to the seastone chair and make any kind of problem for Euron. PLus we must remember that they are both Stannis's captives right now, and I don't see them getting out easily.

[Mulled Wino]

Right that's what I was saying earlier about there not being another kingsmoot. I just dont think Euron is going to allow it flat out. And Asha and Theon really don't have enough supporters right now to get back to the seastone chair and make any kind of problem for Euron. PLus we must remember that they are both Stannis's captives right now, and I don't see them getting out easily.

Why write the same scene over again for a side story?

[Targaryen Tempest]

I just don't see him and his sister ever getting enough support. However, I could very easily see them taking over once all the Iron Islanders are dealt with. I just hope Asha and Theon escape.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I just don't see him and his sister ever getting enough support. However, I could very easily see them taking over once all the Iron Islanders are dealt with. I just hope Asha and Theon escape.

How could theon escape? i def am starting to like him again after all his shananigans at winterfell, but how could he possibly come out of this alive? everyone in the north wants to eat his heart out and stannis has him captive.

[Lord Greystark]

Theon and Asha end up with Stannis' army, and the King intends to sacrifice Theon to a Heart Tree in order to win over the North. Stannis is marching from the west of Winterfell via the Wolfswood. We know the storm slows them down near a frozen lake. A look at the map of the North reveals that the nearest lake south of Deepwood Motte is actually past Winterfell at Torrhen's square. This is significant for a few reasons:

1. It would probably have a Heart Tree.

2. It would provide some level of shelter and food for Stannis' troops prior to the big battle.

I also believe it is held by Dagmer Cleftjaw, one of the most badass Ironmen alive and probably one of my favourite non pov characters. Perhaps Theon's salvation/redemption will come from Cleftjaw throwing in with Stannis, who could use a few ships himself.

[The Killer Snark]

Very possibly. I often have looked at the maps in order to map out probable outcomes. For instance, I deduced some time before it happened that The Bloody Mummers would capture Brienne and Jaime. But this possibility re: Cleftjaw totally skipped me by.

[TheNorthernWarrior]

Theon and Asha end up with Stannis' army, and the King intends to sacrifice Theon to a Heart Tree in order to win over the North. Stannis is marching from the west of Winterfell via the Wolfswood. We know the storm slows them down near a frozen lake. A look at the map of the North reveals that the nearest lake south of Deepwood Motte is actually past Winterfell at Torrhen's square. This is significant for a few reasons:

1. It would probably have a Heart Tree.

2. It would provide some level of shelter and food for Stannis' troops prior to the big battle.

I also believe it is held by Dagmer Cleftjaw, one of the most badass Ironmen alive and probably one of my favourite non pov characters. Perhaps Theon's salvation/redemption will come from Cleftjaw throwing in with Stannis, who could use a few ships himself.

Not every little lake, river, stream, etc. is on the map. Stannis has Northmen with him, would not have got lost in the Wolfwoods unless on purpose.

[Stannis the Wight]

I totally forgot about Dagmer, I can see him fighting with Stannis after Stannis threatens to burn him alive or something like that

[aryagonnakill]

On the Journeys map in the map book Theon's Journey go's straight west from Winterfell to just across the northern most tip of the White Knife, Asha's is not shown to have left Deepwood Mott, Davos' is not shown to have left White Harbor.

[I BLAME MANCE]

How could theon escape? i def am starting to like him again after all his shananigans at winterfell, but how could he possibly come out of this alive? everyone in the north wants to eat his heart out and stannis has him captive.

if any of ned starks murdered sons turn up than why would they northmen have any reason to hate theon? they are all also turncloaks in one way or another and its very clear stannis sees it that way too. Theon turned his cloak against the family that held him hostage.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

if any of ned starks murdered sons turn up than why would they northmen have any reason to hate theon? they are all also turncloaks in one way or another and its very clear stannis sees it that way too. Theon turned his cloak against the family that held him hostage.

I agree, if they find out soon enough that bran and Rickon are in fact alive, then he has a chance. i don't understand why he doesn't just go ahead and tell Stannis the Stark boys are alive??

[The Killer Snark]

It's because he doesn't think it would make a difference. Also, he likes the idea of being able to keep secrets on account of his trauma at the hands of Ramsay, where he had the volitive aspect of his personality destroyed.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It's because he doesn't think it would make a difference. Also, he likes the idea of being able to keep secrets on account of his trauma at the hands of Ramsay, where he had the volitive aspect of his personality destroyed.

Well that's a big assumption to make, I mean it could save his life. I think he at least wants to live. Even though he does definitely have some 'lets just get it over with' thoughts in his POV. But I seriously doubt he wants to get burned alive (being a kings son). If Theon doesn't tell I think Stannis is going to find out via Bran when they go to the Weirwood.

[ladyinblack]

Well that's a big assumption to make, I mean it could save his life. I think he at least wants to live. Even though he does definitely have some 'lets just get it over with' thoughts in his POV. But I seriously doubt he wants to get burned alive (being a kings son). If Theon doesn't tell I think Stannis is going to find out via Bran when they go to the Weirwood.

Yes when they get to the Weirwood Tree, Stannis realizes it not the rustling of the leaves he hears but someone whispering PSST PSST Stannis over here, It's me Bran & I'm not dead....Theon giggles,,,,and the ravens cry Theon Theon Snow quorkl

[W.Kane]

Yes when they get to the Weirwood Tree, Stannis realizes it not the rustling of the leaves he hears but someone whispering PSST PSST Stannis over here, It's me Bran & I'm not dead....Theon giggles,,,,and the ravens cry Theon Theon Snow quorkl

LOL . (to that bolded part) , I really want to see that!

but still , he is a turnclock , he also killed miller's boy!