[Book Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Joyful Union]

The real shame is Martin wrote nuanced, great female characters. So few writers seem to be able to do that.

As the show goes on, every female character is getting turned into yet another television madonna/whore/sexy badass stereotype.

So far, TV Sansa has (IMO) been much better than book Sansa, but if it's between keeping Tyrion Mr Perfect and making Sansa a shallow bitch?

Sigh.

Im not sure that Martin did do such a great job of making Sansa nuanced and great in regards to her marriage with Tyrion. She does seem pretty shallow during her marriage , even if its very understandable considering the circumstances of her marriage.

[Ignacia]

Im not sure that Martin did do such a great job of making Sansa nuanced and great in regards to her marriage with Tyrion. She does seem pretty shallow during her marriage , even if its very understandable considering the circumstances of her marriage.

Well, we only have 1 or 2 chapters from her POV while they were married, the rest is from Tyrion perspective. It seems to me that Sansa decided to continue with Dontos plan immediatly after she got married, so she never made any effort to befriend Tyrion because she knew she would just be with him for a very short time. I think there are some mentions of Sansa spending a lot of time in the Godswood in Tyrion's chapters.

For example, when Tyrion invites her to Casterly Rock he seems very frustrated because Sansa's answer was emotionless and uninterested. Tyrion feels frustration because he feels Sansa doesn´t want to do anything to try to make their relationship better, when they are supposed to be stucked with each other for life now.

But when Tyrion is telling her that, Sansa knows she is going to escape that same night (or die trying). So of course she is not interested in going to Casterly Rock, she knows that will never happen. Plus, she is already very nervous because she fears the plan may fail. So she is barely listening to him, really, because her mind is somewhere else.

[LadyMary]

That doesn't work, though, because if the relationship (post-marriage) is good or even not horrible, that eliminates her desire to escape KL, which is kind of important for plot reasons. And if she does have a not-awful relationship with Tyrion with some level of friendship post-marriage and chooses to ditch out on the marriage and abandon him, that would make her look even worse than in the books, where there's no pretense of camaraderie between the two and therefore no real emotional betrayal when she escapes.

Assuming the interview is on the level, though, I could still see Sansa and Tyrion forming a friendship before the marriage. Everything at that point would be relatively stable for them and even looking up: Sansa would be happily secretly engaged to Loras, Tyrion would be happy with Shae, Shae would be secure in her relationship with Tyrion, Sansa would have formed good relationships with both Tyrion and Shae...and then the marriage happens and all of these things are simultaneously ruined.

We know that Loras will be swapped for Willas Tyrell as TV Sansa's potential husband, as many have suspected. Sophie Turner was asked in an interview what Sansa's ideal would be, and her answer was (in part) marriage to a straight Loras Tyrell, which is absolutely true, I think. She also referred in a recent interview to Sansa getting the chance to marry the "man of her dreams" in Season 3 (or similar), just as Joffrey was the man of her dreams in Season 1. (Don't ask me for links to any of these interviews, LOL; Sophie Turner's done so much press in the past month or so that the interviews have all started to blend together.) So I think the delirious happiness, Sansa smiling, etc. etc., will be Sansa getting a crack at an engagement to the person she believes to be her dream man: Loras Tyrell.

There are a few problems with the Loras/Willas switch. First of all, Loras is the embodiment of Sansa's romantic ideal (gorgeous, able-bodied, a true knight), while Willas had defects she maturely convinced herself were not important (crippled, possibly ugly, older), so unlike in the books where it was clear from Sansa's acceptance of the Willas match that she was no longer shallow and was maturing, on the TV show it will look like Sansa is still in naive teenager mode, chasing after her fantasy man.

Second of all, Willas is straight, but Loras is not. In the books, Sansa had a real shot of marital happiness with Willas Tyrell, so the loss of it is a cruel blow. In the show, Sansa wanting Loras as a husband is based on a lie, as he will never be able to love her as she hopes he will. So when she loses the Loras match, she's not losing a shot at a good marriage, since it never existed in the first place. Instead of pitying Sansa for the tragedy of her crushed hopes, TV viewers will be all "What's she all upset about? Dude's gay. She totally dodged a bullet."

Lastly, barring some really good writing, TV Sansa is going to look not only shallow and prejudiced for leaping at the chance to marry young, gorgeous, able-bodied Loras Tyrell while scorning a scarred, much older dwarf, but she's also going to look like a naive idiot for swallowing Loras and the Tyrells' BS about Loras' suitability as a husband and failing to see the truth about Loras' orientation. Rather than reflecting Sansa's growth and maturity (as her acceptance of Willas as a potential husband does), it will look like a rehash of Joffrey, where Sansa is so blinded by superficial good qualities of her potential mate that she doesn't realize that the man is completely unsuitable (although the reason will be Loras' homosexuality and not Joffrey's evil). So yeah, it's going to be a problem.

I don't think there is anything intrinsically shallow about a woman being happy to marry a man who appears to have all the traits she dreamed of, especially given her current state of captivity and the fact that said marriage will presumably get her out from under the Lannisters' direct control and safely off at Highgarden. Even if she were told that Loras is not a lover of women and thus could never desire her, she gets benefits of the marriage as the wife of the heir to Highgarden.

Then, even though TVTyrion is not the noseless, ugly dwarf of the books, having her dream crushed in another Lannister power play, by being forced to marry a Lannister and member of the same family that orchestrated her family's destruction, would seem a reasonable disappointment at the very least. It has less to do with Tyrion, who is the best of a bad bunch in terms of how Sansa is treated, but the fact that she's still tied directly to the Lannisters that she is so desperate to escape.

I don't think it will seem shallow if she's less than enthusiastic to be wed to a Lannister. I think she'd feel the same way if Tywin contrived somehow to wed Sansa to the handsome Jamie either, or Lancel who is reasonably attractive and closer to her age but weak and complicit with the other Lannisters. The point is Tyrion is a LANNISTER, and even though he's treated as the unwanted runt of the litter and gets bullied by his father and is kinder to Sansa than the others, he still refuses to give up his place in the inner circle, which will leave her, as his wife, in the same boat. As long as she's surrounded by Lions she will be in jeopardy.

[Newstar]

still, i'm far more concerned about sansa becoming friends with tyrion than the fact that loras is good-looking. how on earth are they going to pull that off? i'm baffled.

Eh, I haven't seen anything else along those lines in pre-season promotional materials/interviews. I'm going to assume the relationship will be pretty much the same as in the books, and that Sophie Turner was just engaging in a bit of misdirection. I wouldn't worry too much about it, although if they do tweak the dynamic, it will be interesting to see how they choose to do it.

Makes me wonder what will they do with Shae now...

TV Shae's characterization and seeming genuine feelings for both Tyrion and Sansa is an interesting element to add to the mix. Heck, the HBO Viewers' Guide for Season 3 describes Shae as "fiercely devoted" to Sansa. So TV Shae's reaction to the marriage and possible knowledge of or involvement in Sansa's escape attempt is going to be very, very interesting.

I don't think there is anything intrinsically shallow about a woman being happy to marry a man who appears to have all the traits she dreamed of,

Actually, I'm pretty sure that is the definition of shallow (especially if there are other factors at play which should give you pause if you thought about them but you ignore them: the Tyrells' manipulative nature, another escape opportunity, hints that your potential mate just isn't that into you, etc. etc.), and again, it looks a lot like Joffrey 2.0. As I said, there can be nuanced writing to underscore Sansa's terror of the Lannisters, her desperation to escape King's Landing, her need to grasp at anything that looks like a positive outcome for her no matter how sketchy, etc. etc., but on TV, it's going to look like Sansa swooning over Joffrey 2.0 and eating up Joffrey 2.0's BS. As for Tyrion, even though her rejection of a Lannister husband and her hatred of being tied to the Lannisters through marriage are totally reasonable, on TV, absent some good writing, it's going to play like Sansa embracing Loras because of his superficial good qualities and spurning Tyrion because he's a scarred, older dwarf, which wasn't the case in th books.

Even if she were told that Loras is not a lover of women and thus could never desire her, she gets benefits of the marriage as the wife of the heir to Highgarden.

It would be awesome if Sansa made a conscious decision to beard for Loras, although that would make the loss of the chance at that marriage less crushing (since she would be under no romantic illusions as to the nature of the marriage). I doubt it will happen that way, but you never know. Maybe TV Shae will clue her in.

[Ignacia]

TV Shae's characterization and seeming genuine feelings for both Tyrion and Sansa is an interesting element to add to the mix. Heck, the HBO Viewers' Guide for Season 3 describes Shae as "fiercely devoted" to Sansa. So TV Shae's reaction to the marriage and possible knowledge of or involvement in Sansa's escape attempt is going to be very, very interesting.

I'm thinking TV Shae may be put in a position where she knows about Sansa's escape, and agrees to testify against Tyrion because she thinks thats the only way to help to protect Sansa.

I really like TVShae. I like book Shae too, I think she served the purpose of showing how Tyrion was deceiving himself, but that is hard to show on screen without the inner monologue. At the same time, book Sansa had lots of inner monologue and no one to talk to. So I think this was a very smart move in the adaptation.

[Waylin Stark]

I don't think they'll be any romance in their marriage, but maybe Sansa will be kinder to Tyrion. But Tyrion's frustration of Sansa treating him badly is an important part of his development. When he leaves KL, he shouldn't be worrying too much about her.

[Minsc]

I don't think they'll be any romance in their marriage, but maybe Sansa will be kinder to Tyrion. But Tyrion's frustration of Sansa treating him badly is an important part of his development. When he leaves KL, he shouldn't be worrying too much about her.

She was hardly unkind to him, the thing that was annoying Tyrion was that she wasn't allowing him to stick his dick inside her. And I am doubting we will get lines from Peter talking about how much he wants to have sex with a 13 year old.

[jons nissa]

She was hardly unkind to him, the thing that was annoying Tyrion was that she wasn't allowing him to stick his dick inside her. And I am doubting we will get lines from Peter talking about how much he wants to have sex with a 13 year old.

actually, i think it was the fact that she wouldn't drop her courtesy shield. she only spoke to him if he asked her a question and then it was always a short, courteous response. she allowed him to get no closer to her than he was before the marriage. i think that annoyed him far more than anything else.

the fear is that by forming a friendship or an alliance, that barrier goes away. i'm not sure if that will affect anything to the overall storyline though. she still has motive to leave, friendship or not. joffrey will still be a problem and her with tywin and cersei in close range, her fear and dislike of the lannisters will still be in place.

[Newstar]

And I am doubting we will get lines from Peter talking about how much he wants to have sex with a 13 year old.

Hahaha! It reminds me of interviews where poor Rory McCann is asked his opinions about the Hound's possible romantic interest in Sansa. I mean, Jesus, what is he supposed to say?

The wedding night scene will have to be rewritten substantially, although the part where Tyrion asks Sansa her age (which won't be 13 in the show, it will probably be 15) and tells her that he wants her might be.

[Minsc]

Hahaha! It reminds me of interviews where poor Rory McCann is asked his opinions about the Hound's possible romantic interest in Sansa. I mean, Jesus, what is he supposed to say?

The wedding night scene will have to be rewritten substantially, although the part where Tyrion asks Sansa her age (which won't be 13 in the show, it will probably be 15) and tells her that he wants her might be.

Is it wrong that I kinda hope they keep some of that feelings in just so they can begin to darken Tyrion's character, in how they seem to have really dropped the ball on that front. Which is a shame as Peter seems like a great actor who could perfectly portray the messed psyche of Tyrion trying to balance being a good person with his inner Tywin.

[Woman of War]

I would love to see the wedding night just the way it has been written because it isin all its awkwardnees one of the best written chapters in the books but I got used to the thought that we won't get it. Actually the non rape would have, compared to the Tysha story, given so much about Tyrion when he did not commit the cri me here. And the point is: Sansa, in trying to emulate the proper wife would have "allowed" Tyrion to stick his dick in her, only he didn't.

They cannot show this, nor the humiliating nakedness of both. A pity, but we still have the books. And I always thought that Sansa would have been clever to form some alliance with "the enemy", only she was too young to understand this. In the series she is not as young, so it would be less believable when she does not, for self preservation, see the possibilities.

[PatrickStormborn]

Im not sure that Martin did do such a great job of making Sansa nuanced and great in regards to her marriage with Tyrion. She does seem pretty shallow during her marriage , even if its very understandable considering the circumstances of her marriage.

Sansa is shallow? That's completely ridiculous when we consider how shallow Tyrion is. Tyrion had two options: marry Lollys or marry Sansa against her will. Because he was shallow, he chose to marry a 12 year old prisoner.

[Minsc]

Sansa is shallow? That's completely ridiculous when we consider how shallow Tyrion is. Tyrion had two options: marry Lollys or marry Sansa against her will. Because he was shallow, he chose to marry a 12 year old prisoner.

But Tyrion is sad ugly man with daddy issues thus he deserves a beautiful wife to love him, while Sansa commits the unforgivable crimes of being both attractive and being a girl that desires a mate that she finds somewhat attractive and that isn't keeping her prisoner.

[King of the Road]

Sansa is shallow? That's completely ridiculous when we consider how shallow Tyrion is. Tyrion had two options: marry Lollys or marry Sansa against her will. Because he was shallow, he chose to marry a 12 year old prisoner.

Sansa does come across as quite shallow as well. Refusing to embarrass herself by kneeling so that he can place the cloak around her shoulders is both shallow and cruel. Her constant, albeit understandable, descriptions of how ugly she finds him hardly whitewash Sansa. This isn't to say that Tyrion isn't shallow, but Sansa suffers from seeking only good looks without trying to find some of the goodness in Tyrion.

[Minsc]

Sansa does come across as quite shallow as well. Refusing to embarrass herself by kneeling so that he can place the cloak around her shoulders is both shallow and cruel. Her constant, albeit understandable, descriptions of how ugly she finds him hardly whitewash Sansa. This isn't to say that Tyrion isn't shallow, but Sansa suffers from seeking only good looks without trying to find some of the goodness in Tyrion.

Why should Sansa, who is already being extremely humiliated and is 12, further embarrass herself just so that adult man doesn't have to suffer any form of embarrassment? Quite frankly, I find that exchange as demonstrating how Tyrion is no better then any of the other Lannisters regarding his pride. In how, rather then suffer any slight he would rather an innocent child suffer more in order to save face.

Sansa has shown herself as being attracted to both Sandor and Willas, both individuals that according to their society are not the heights of physical attractiveness if not also ugly. She doesn't like Tyrion because yes he is ugly but also he is a completely loyal Lannister.

[PatrickStormborn]

Sansa does come across as quite shallow as well. Refusing to embarrass herself by kneeling so that he can place the cloak around her shoulders is both shallow and cruel. Her constant, albeit understandable, descriptions of how ugly she finds him hardly whitewash Sansa. This isn't to say that Tyrion isn't shallow, but Sansa suffers from seeking only good looks without trying to find some of the goodness in Tyrion.

Tyrion forced her to marry him. She refused to kneel. How is that cruel??? It was one of the few moments of triumph in A Storm of Swords.

If you were forced to marry someone, I don't think you would be spending your time trying to "find some of the goodness" in them.

[King of the Road]

Why should Sansa, who is already being extremely humiliated and is 12, further embarrass herself just so that adult man doesn't have to suffer any form of embarrassment? Quite frankly, I find that exchange as demonstrating how Tyrion is no better then any of the other Lannisters regarding his pride. In how, rather then suffer any slight he would rather an innocent child suffer more in order to save face.

Sansa has shown herself as being attracted to both Sandor and Willas, both individuals that according to their society are not the heights of physical attractiveness if not also ugly. She doesn't like Tyrion because yes he is ugly but also he is a completely loyal Lannister.

Sansa has never met Willas Tyrell, how can she be attracted to him? She has had a rosy (pardon the pun) picture painted for her by Margaery and Olenna of a man who likes dogs, boats etc. The Hound, yes, she is able to get over his scars which would redeem her in part.

I'm not sure about your point regarding the kneeling fiasco. It's largely down to personal opinion but I think it's more degrading for a dwarf to kneel upon the back of a fool than for a highborn girl to kneel. That point is perhaps open to debate.

Tyrion forced her to marry him. She refused to kneel. How is that cruel??? It was one of the few moments of triumph in A Storm of Swords.

If you were forced to marry someone, I don't think you would be spending your time trying to "find some of the goodness" in them.

Sorry but I do find it cruel. Lannister or no he has shown her some kindness in the past and deserves better than to be left tugging at the hem of her dress in full view of the KL nobility. And if you didn't try to find beauty in someone's personality in our world, you would be called shallow. She is not in an abusive relationship, Tyrion actually expresses a desire to form a genuine bond with her through conversation.

I'm not disputing that Tyrion can be seen as shallow, but equally the idealised image of Sansa can also be contested, very few people in ASoIaF are perfect. Ultimately it is down to personal opinion and choice.

[King of the Road]

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[Minsc]

I'm not sure about your point regarding the kneeling fiasco. It's largely down to personal opinion but I think it's more degrading for a dwarf to kneel upon the back of a fool than for a highborn girl to kneel. That point is perhaps open to debate.

And I find it absurd that someone cares more for the feelings of adult then the feelings repeatedly abused young girl who is being forcibly humiliated into being married against her will to man who loyally follows the family that has killed her father, has attempted to kill her mother, two of her brothers, and her sister, repeatedly abuses her, and is keeping her prisoner.

If Tyrion didn't want to stand on a fool's back then he should have prepared a stool for him to stand on when that part of the ceremony came up, seeing how he actually knew about the wedding and likely knows that he couldn't place his cloak on her shoulders without assistance. But no, that might embarrass him thus the innocent child should be suffer in order to ensure his pride.

I wouldn't have cared if Sansa kicked Tyrion in the face during the wedding.

Also, Tyrion's personality that he exhibits is also quite ugly. Even so she does openly admit that he was relatively kind, however just be relatively kind should not be enough to redeem him of his numerous faults.

[PatrickStormborn]

Sorry but I do find it cruel. Lannister or no he has shown her some kindness in the past and deserves better than to be left tugging at the hem of her dress in full view of the KL nobility. And if you didn't try to find beauty in someone's personality in our world, you would be called shallow. She is not in an abusive relationship, Tyrion actually expresses a desire to form a genuine bond with her through conversation.

I'm not disputing that Tyrion can be seen as shallow, but equally the idealised image of Sansa can also be contested, very few people in ASoIaF are perfect. Ultimately it is down to personal opinion and choice.

No. No. No. No. No. No.

"Cruel" was Tyrion forcing a 12 year old prisoner to marry him. What Sansa did was nothing short of badass.