Alfie Allen on Jon Snow's parents

[Budj]

The real question in all this is... Which dragon will Jon end up with? "The dragon must have three heads!"

I think heads may = crowns (North (by Robb), South (by Rhaegar), and potentially Wildlings in the future.

[Bushido]

The Dragon = A Targaryen. Head = Crown.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think heads may = crowns (North (by Robb), South (by Rhaegar), and potentially Wildlings in the future.

The Dragon = A Targaryen. Head = Crown.

Yes, several of us here worked through to that possible conclusion in one of the Azor Ahai retread threads. I think it's pretty inspired reasoning, myself. After all, if "crowns" can mean "heads" in Cersei's prophecy, why can "heads" not mean "crowns" in this one?

[nothatso]

The Dragon = A Targaryen.

"Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not necessarily BE a Targaryen..."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1261/

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

"Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not necessarily BE a Targaryen..."

http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1261/

The dragon is a dragon, but one of the heads doesn't have to be a Targaryen. It's one dragon with three heads, but if "head" can mean "crown," not all of the crowns (e.g. the North) would be derived from a Targaryen claim.

[Bushido]

The reason I insist on The Dragon = A Targaryen is because of the Dunk&Egg stories and the notion how Targaryen's prophetic dreams always reveal Targaryens as dragons. (having Aenar's daughter in mind as well).

Secondly,in my languge crown and head are synonymous; it was easier on me to consider this possibility. Same goes for *three treasons you will know* it implies with same strenght both the possibility of being betrayed and commiting the treason.

On Martin's reaponse,well,he was giving and answer to our conjectures,as well Dany's or Rhaegar's. Does that mean we are right,on the right path? No. A very clever way for Martin to answers but not to say anything (or worse,deliberately mislead) .

[BlueDragon]

Seriously, that wasn't the smoothest segue from 'who are Jon Snow's parents' to a general discussion of medieval politics and incest. I wonder if he realizes that he even if he didn't say who they are, he still gave away a lot in that interview.

I think Martin realizes that the cat is out of the bag as far as his central mystery goes. It will still be important for character motivation, but not for reader response as so many readers now believe R+L=J.

I think there are several ways the Luke Skywalker sort of works with R + L = J. Jon and Luke are motherless (presumed orphaned) sons with extrasensory powers, raised by an Uncle and later go off to join an ancient order of warriors with a strict code of conduct and mentored by more senior warriors. In both cases the foster father (uncle) was killed by the Powers That Be.

And importantly, 'heroes' are most often fostered by surrogates in mythological structure, so this positions Jon as THE hero and also Aegon and Dany for that matter.

Luke found out later who his father was, and presumably so will Jon. Luke believed his father was evil and Jon probably has heard the same about Rhaegar. Luke found that his father still had good in him. Jon will probably learn that the cut-and-dried story of rape and kidnapping was not exactly true and there's a more complicated story to Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship.

There is no evidence in the text that the Starks themselves spread or adhered to the Rhaegar raped Lyanna story. It only comes out of Robert's mouth. I doubt Ned ever referred to this at all, with or without Jon around. The odds are that Howland Reed (who Martin declared, twelve long years ago, will show up eventually) will reveal enough of the 'truth' so that at least Jon and Dany know/believe the truth.

I don't think knowing the truth about his parentage will matter to Jon's story trajectory anyway. I doubt he's interested in ruling the 7 Kingdoms and he will probably be one or one of several who fight the Others and save the realm. He may fall in love with Danaerys only to discover that she's his aunt which will squick him out because incest in not acceptable according to the values of Northern culture.

In my opinion, who rules at the end will be far less important than how Westeros is saved and by whom. Cousin/aunt/uncle, etc. incest is just not a big deal historically almost anywhere. Cousin marriage is still legal in some states in the U.S. Marrying Dany and Jon is a proto-typical scenario for Middle Ages line of descent solutions. This IS why this second hand info via Alfie is significant.

Also, the fact that they were not raised together, let alone knowing they are related makes the psychological part of the incest moot. Marrying a woman who is your age or even younger, who was raised apart from you and who you have no psychological relation to as a child, is not incest in the traditional sense.

But the odds of Dany and Jon having a traditional marriage and children seem quite low to me. That doesn't mean they won't have a close relationship or even a sexual one.

Does Theon say anything about incest? When people think Luke Skywalker, they think Darth Vader saying "I am your father," not incest. Yeah, he kissed his sister, but that was just poor planning on George Lucas's part and people have blown it way out of proportion.

Lucas did not plan poorly at all. This was deliberate and works in the narrative in multiple ways. It explains Luke's strong motivation to help Leia and his strong feelings for her which would naturally turn to attraction given that she is a beautiful princess who needs rescuing, etc., etc. Also, it resolves the need for Han and Luke to be in a long term struggle over her. Quite clever on Lucas' part.

I guarantee you what Allen meant with that comment was that people will be surprised when they find out who Jon's father is. Reading anything else into his comments like "Oh, so Jon and Dany are going to get together" is a HUGE stretch. That's most definitely not what he meant.

Au contraire. Martin was free associating and giving away stuff, probably without meaning to. But either way, I don't think it is a big deal. Most thoughtful readers would have these associations in their minds consciously or subconsciously. These are not mystery novels although there are mysteries throughout.

On the other hand, this pretty much confirms that R+L=J is true.

Bingo. But like I just said, it hardly matters at this point and after more than a decade. We are almost at the point where giving up spoilers is beside the point after all this time. Readers have pretty much made up their own minds about certain things. What is left is for some to be disappointed and/or angry and others to say, "yup, I knew it."

[BlueDragon]

The dragon is a dragon, but one of the heads doesn't have to be a Targaryen. It's one dragon with three heads, but if "head" can mean "crown," not all of the crowns (e.g. the North) would be derived from a Targaryen claim.

I think Bran is mostly likely to warg into the green dragon as a green seer.

[Faint]

The dragon is a dragon, but one of the heads doesn't have to be a Targaryen. It's one dragon with three heads, but if "head" can mean "crown," not all of the crowns (e.g. the North) would be derived from a Targaryen claim.

The thing about GRRM's response is that, if he was being clever, it could just mean that the third head is a Targaryen bastard or a Blackfyre.

[David C. Hunter]

The thing about GRRM's response is that, if he was being clever, it could just mean that the third head is a Targaryen bastard or a Blackfyre.

That's what I was thinking as well.

Though I do believe Bran is going to warg a dragon at some point. As is maybe Jon Snow.

To be honest I don't think the dragon head potentials are as numerous as we make them out to be. I doubt a Tyrell or Greyjoy is going to ride a dragon so:

Dany

Jon Snow

Tyrion

Bran

Aegon

Rickon(maybe)

Those are our only choice I think

[CrypticWeirwood]

Martin is hardly going to miss an opportunity to make his main characters have an incest moment, is he? This interview just seems to confirm a brief Jon and Dany fling. ;)

What, you mean like Twyin and Joanna (double-)Lannister, or like Cregan and Alys double-)Karstark?

Even Dany is a double-Targaryen, who’s her own first cousin, twice no less.

Just like Jaime and Cersei are each other’s second cousin twice over, and Joffrey and Marcella and Tommen are not only siblings but also each other’s first and third cousins each twice over.

In the same way, if Rhaegar and Lyanna are “Jon” Snow’s parents, then Dany is more than just his aunt alone. They’re also cousins of one or another sort.

I still think Joffrey and Marcella should look more alike than Jaime and Cersei did; the only excuse I can think of is if Jaime and Cersei are actually half-identical twins, sharing the same (split) X chromosome from Joanna, and then having distinct X and Y chromosomes from their father, presumably Tywin. It’s even possible that the non-identical X and the Y components aren’t even from the same father, but then they wouldn’t be likely to look so much alike. That situation of twins who are only half-siblings happens much more often than people think, and certainly much more often than the half-identical twin thing.

[The Wood of the Morning]

Darth Vader huh? Hm ok well lets see here; Luke thought that Vader was his father's killer....and who does Jon think his father's killer is? That's right. Jon Snow's father is none other than a time travelling Joffrey.

[CrypticWeirwood]

You don't know where [Lyanna] was when she conceived Jon.

Sure we do: she was under “Jon” ’s father. : )

[CrypticWeirwood]

ETA--Looking at Errant Bard's timeline more closely, I can see that it actually supports my position. Or at least, it doesn't contradict it. If Dany was born on 5/284, then her conception was in 8/283, five months after Ned and Cat's wedding. Based on the quotes I mentioned above, that means Ned and Cat's wedding took place five months before the Trident/Sack of King's Landing. And since Jon's birth occurred around the same time as Dany's conception, that puts his own conception at around 3-4 months before Cat's wedding, and 8-9 months before the Sack.

I think you just said that “Jon” is older than Robb by like 3–4 months. Is this right? ¡Muy interesante!

[CrypticWeirwood]

I get that, but babies have some pretty variable term times. 38-40 weeks is the rule of thumb, but some kids are born earlier and some are born later. Depending on how soon he could have slept with someone else after he married Catelyn, it's possible for one baby to be conceived shortly after another, but be born earlier.

What's interesting about the whole thing is that Ned could have easily said he slept with someone before he married Catelyn, and that Jon was that woman's son. No dishonoring his vows. I wonder what it is about Jon — and kg1982 could be right, it could be to throw suspicion off Lyanna — that made it necessary for Ned to give the cover story that Jon was younger.

I can think of one possible reason. Maybe Ned didn’t want to have people thinking that Robb as heit to Winterfell was anything but his firstborn son. An older would0-be brother could potentially be messy, even as a bastard.

But no, I’m not convinced of this. Just offering it up as one possible reason.

I think you’ve hit upon another mystery here.

[CrypticWeirwood]

The thing about GRRM's response is that, if he was being clever, it could just mean that the third head is a Targaryen bastard or a Blackfyre.

Martin, clever? Tricksy even? Naw, how could you think such a thing about such a nice old grandfather-type? : )

[Victarions Secret]

"Jon, I am your Hodor!"

- Darth Hodor

[CrypticWeirwood]

That's what I was thinking as well.

Though I do believe Bran is going to warg a dragon at some point. As is maybe Jon Snow.

To be honest I don't think the dragon head potentials are as numerous as we make them out to be. I doubt a Tyrell or Greyjoy is going to ride a dragon so:

• Dany
  
• Jon Snow
  
• Tyrion
  
• Bran
  
• Aegon
  
• Rickon(maybe)
  

Those are our only choice I think

Well, so far as legitimate riders go, sure. But there’s always the Brothers Greyjoy and their Valyrian hell horn.

Me, I’m thinking that Bran will seize the reins of whichever dragon the hellhorn lets Victarion and/or Urine Euron ride, and dump the bugger into the sea from a mile or two in the sky. Squid soup!

Bloodraven might use his own skills at sorcery to help break the hell horn’s sorcerous grip on the dragon, merhaps distracting it or messing with its willpower while Bran moves in for the skinchanging.

I really want to see Rickon come back riding something unusual. Maybe Ricky’ll ride Shaggy and wield a spear made from the horn of some unicorn that they killed and ate on Skagos.

I’m completely positive that Martin is going to demolish the cutesy unicorn trope by having Rickon chowing down on them. I believe “Jon” already saw a vision of Shaggy fighting one. Or was that Bran? Can’t remember.

[HouseRex]

What if the leader of the wites is mad king aerys, explaining why he started going mad, varys who claims hates dark magic, actually is a dark magic Lord who acquired his power during his circumcision somehow, made a deal or learned his ability, poisoned and cast a spell on aerys, when aerys died, a spell requiring death of the king, would allow winter to return, and while aerys was going mad, raped lyanna, Jon was the result, hence, king of wites = Darth vader, Jon= aa= luke skywalker, Jon having to slay the ultimate threat and bad guy, who is also his father, nooooooooooo!

[RedBean]

I thought the three dragons would be ridden by Dany (fire), Jon (ice/fire) and Bran (ice).