Alfie Allen on Jon Snow's parents

[facetree]

Well, let's take a look at this time line as established by Errant Bard

http://asoiaf.wester...lobal-timeline/

According to his calculations, Dany was born 5/25/284. If Jon was born 9 month before that, he would have been born sometime in August of 283, which means he was conceived probably December of 282. We know the War doesn't really get going until Ned marries Cat and the Tullys are brought into the war, and that happens March of 283.

So no, it's not entirely certain that Jon was conceived after the War has been going on for some time.

Hi, longtime lurker, first time poster.

I don't think your timeline works. According to here: http://towerofthehand.com/essays/johnny/roberts_rebellion.html#f13

Jon's supposed to be born around the sack of King's Landing, give or take a month, and the war has been raging for close to a year before the sack of King's Landing. See here: http://towerofthehand.com/books/101/013/index.html- "Robert had taken a wound from Rhaegar at the Trident, so he charged Eddard with the pursuit of the defeated Targaryen army while he recuperated. They fled to King's Landing, where Aerys still had a force of several thousand loyalists. Expecting to have to besiege the city, Eddard was surprised when he arrived to see that Lord Tywin Lannister had taken it. The war was almost a year old by this point, and Tywin had ignored calls from both sides to add his strength to their cause. After the Battle of the Trident, he appeared at the gates of King's Landing with 12,000 men professing to be an ally, but sacked the city when Aerys opened the gates."

So.. yes, Jon was probably conceived after the war had started. Unless you are assuming that a woman takes more than 12 months to give birth to a baby.

[Dragonfish]

Well, let's take a look at this time line as established by Errant Bard

http://asoiaf.wester...lobal-timeline/

According to his calculations, Dany was born 5/25/284. If Jon was born 9 month before that, he would have been born sometime in August of 283, which means he was conceived probably December of 282. We know the War doesn't really get going until Ned marries Cat and the Tullys are brought into the war, and that happens March of 283.

So no, it's not entirely certain that Jon was conceived after the War has been going on for some time.

No, the war began before Ned and Catelyn were married. There were plenty of battles fought before then, including the taking of Gulltown, Robert's victories at Summerhall, his defeat at Ashford, and the Battle of the Bells. War had already been raging for quite a while when Ned and Catelyn married.

I don't know how Errant Bard constructed his timeline, though it strikes me as a bit of a fool's errand to try to make a timeline that is precise down to the months and days, since not even George does that. What I do know is that Dany was born around nine months after the Sack. This is based on her first chapter, in which she recalls that she was born nine moons after her family's flight to Dragonstone, and one of Jaime's chapters in ASoS, in which he recalls that Viserys and his mother fled to Dragonstone right after the Trident. So, if Dany was born nine months after the Sack, then that means Jon was born around the time of the Sack or sometime after. And since the war lasted close to a year up until the Sack, according to Ned's own thoughts in AGoT, then that means Jon was born about a few months into the war. Which is exactly what I said in my previous post.

ETA--Looking at Errant Bard's timeline more closely, I can see that it actually supports my position. Or at least, it doesn't contradict it. If Dany was born on 5/284, then her conception was in 8/283, five months after Ned and Cat's wedding. Based on the quotes I mentioned above, that means Ned and Cat's wedding took place five months before the Trident/Sack of King's Landing. And since Jon's birth occurred around the same time as Dany's conception, that puts his own conception at around 3-4 months before Cat's wedding, and 8-9 months before the Sack. And since we know the war lasted about a year up until the Sack, that puts his conception at around 1-3 months after the beginning of the war.

[Lyanna Mormont]

I have to say that I agree with those who say that the Luke Skywalker thing is just in reference to Jon getting a shock when he realises who his real parents are.

The segue into talk of succession and incest then is a bit odd, but I genuinely think Mr Allen was just referencing the obvious Star Wars thing.

However I can't resist another quick crackpot theory: Benjen Stark + Lyanna Stark = Jon Snow. Hey, we don't know why Benjen joined the Night's Watch... :P

[x FistOfMars x]

I've always felt that Jon is Lyanna's son by Raegar. They haven't really confirmed anything in the book series, only having Ned remember Lyanna saying "promise me, Ned.". I think she's really asking him not to tell that she loved Raegar and had his baby... Jon.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

No, the war began before Ned and Catelyn were married. There were plenty of battles fought before then, including the taking of Gulltown, Robert's victories at Summerhall, his defeat at Ashford, and the Battle of the Bells. War had already been raging for quite a while when Ned and Catelyn married.

I don't know how Errant Bard constructed his timeline, though it strikes me as a bit of a fool's errand to try to make a timeline that is precise down to the months and days, since not even George does that. What I do know is that Dany was born around nine months after the Sack. This is based on her first chapter, in which she recalls that she was born nine moons after her family's flight to Dragonstone, and one of Jaime's chapters in ASoS, in which he recalls that Viserys and his mother fled to Dragonstone right after the Trident. So, if Dany was born nine months after the Sack, then that means Jon was born around the time of the Sack or sometime after. And since the war lasted close to a year up until the Sack, according to Ned's own thoughts in AGoT, then that means Jon was born about a few months into the war. Which is exactly what I said in my previous post.

ETA--Looking at Errant Bard's timeline more closely, I can see that it actually supports my position. Or at least, it doesn't contradict it. If Dany was born on 5/284, then her conception was in 8/283, five months after Ned and Cat's wedding. Based on the quotes I mentioned above, that means Ned and Cat's wedding took place five months before the Trident/Sack of King's Landing. And since Jon's birth occurred around the same time as Dany's conception, that puts his own conception at around 3-4 months before Cat's wedding, and 8-9 months before the Sack. And since we know the war lasted about a year up until the Sack, that puts his conception at around 1-3 months after the beginning of the war.

I'm not saying his timeline is golden. But all these timelines are speculation, nothing definitive is the point. But I still believe although skirmishes have taken place, the War doesn't really become a serious threat to Aerys' rule until the Tully alliance is made, so the fact that Jon is conceived 4 month before Ned's marriage is not some impossible event.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not saying his timeline is golden. But all these timelines are speculation, nothing definitive is the point. But I still believe although skirmishes have taken place, the War doesn't really become a serious threat to Aerys' rule until the Tully alliance is made, so the fact that Jon is conceived 4 month before Ned's marriage is not some impossible event.

Officially, the war "began" when Jon Arryn called his banners, and Robert and Ned followed suit. That, to my knowledge, is the marker that is the most reliable for timeline purposes, not when Ned married Catelyn to secure the Tullys.

[Dragonfish]

But I still believe although skirmishes have taken place

These weren't skirmishes, these were pretty major battles. In fact, they're pretty much the only battles we've heard of from the war, with the obvious exception of the Trident.

I'm not saying his timeline is golden. But all these timelines are speculation, nothing definitive is the point. But I still believe although skirmishes have taken place, the War doesn't really become a serious threat to Aerys' rule until the Tully alliance is made, so the fact that Jon is conceived 4 month before Ned's marriage is not some impossible event.

It doesn't matter when you think the war began. What matters is that whenever it began, it lasted a year until the Sack, which means Jon was conceived a few months after the beginning of the war. If you think Cat's marriage was the beginning of the war, then Jon was conceived a few months after that. If you think the beginning of the war was a few months before Cat's marriage (which I think is most likely), then Jon was conceived at around the same time as her marriage. Whatever the case may be, nothing changes the fact that you are essentially proposing that Rhaegar snuck into King's Landing, grabbed Lyanna, took her south, then rode back up north to King's Landing, all without anyone knowing he was there, and all in the middle of a war. This is quite simply a contrivance.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It doesn't matter when you think the war began. What matters is that whenever it began, it lasted a year until the Sack, which means Jon was conceived a few months after the beginning of the war. If you think Cat's marriage was the beginning of the war, then Jon was conceived a few months after that. If you think the beginning of the war was a few months before Cat's marriage (which I think is most likely), then Jon was conceived at around the same time as her marriage.

This almost has to be the case. Jon couldn't have looked substantially older than Robb (the cover story relies on Ned fathering Jon after he married Catelyn), and couldn't be substantially younger, given when he was born and thus when he would have had to have been conceived. They're probably almost smack-dab the same age. Honestly, I think the only reason that Robb is "officially" older (is he officially older?) is because Ned didn't want Catelyn to worry about an older son making a claim. If Robb is "older" no matter what, his claim would always be stronger. But for all we know, Jon is ever so slightly older than Robb.

[facetree]

I'm not saying his timeline is golden. But all these timelines are speculation, nothing definitive is the point. But I still believe although skirmishes have taken place, the War doesn't really become a serious threat to Aerys' rule until the Tully alliance is made, so the fact that Jon is conceived 4 month before Ned's marriage is not some impossible event.

Gulltown is a very important port, and not only that Jon Arryn's calling his banners not only set off war in the vale but in others, so I don't think you can just call it off as a skirmish. You're making the same mistake that Lord Merryweather made by dismissing them as ineffectual-for which he was later dismissed. It's not a mere skirmish. Robert Baratheon singlehandedly unites the stormlands, and then there's the siege of Storm's end after, It's not some mere skirmish. Also the fact that many major characters basically saying that the War started with Lord Arryn calling his banners mean that it had a huge significance-otherwise people would be saying "but in reality it started with the Tully alliance" or something like that. So I'd say that your point isn't that strong.

[Dragonfish]

This almost has to be the case. Jon couldn't have looked substantially older than Robb (the cover story relies on Ned fathering Jon after he married Catelyn), and couldn't be substantially younger, given when he was born and thus when he would have had to have been conceived. They're probably almost smack-dab the same age. Honestly, I think the only reason that Robb is "officially" older (is he officially older?) is because Ned didn't want Catelyn to worry about an older son making a claim. If Robb is "older" no matter what, his claim would always be stronger. But for all we know, Jon is ever so slightly older than Robb.

Agreed. (Also, as a side note, Robb is indeed officially older than Jon, based on the fact that Ned states openly that he fathered Jon after his marriage to Catelyn).

[facetree]

Oops, double post :/

[kg1982]

This almost has to be the case. Jon couldn't have looked substantially older than Robb (the cover story relies on Ned fathering Jon after he married Catelyn), and couldn't be substantially younger, given when he was born and thus when he would have had to have been conceived. They're probably almost smack-dab the same age. Honestly, I think the only reason that Robb is "officially" older (is he officially older?) is because Ned didn't want Catelyn to worry about an older son making a claim. If Robb is "older" no matter what, his claim would always be stronger. But for all we know, Jon is ever so slightly older than Robb.

Robb has to be "officially" older than Jon or the cover story doesn't work. Ned basically knocked Cat up on their wedding night and then went off to war and slept with another woman due to the horrors and stresses of war. However, Jon could definitely be older than Robb. I think that there might be some obscuring of Jon's birthday, so people don't start noticing it's around the time Ned found Lyanna at the Tower.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Agreed. (Also, as a side note, Robb is indeed officially older than Jon, based on the fact that Ned states openly that he fathered Jon after his marriage to Catelyn).

Robb has to be "officially" older than Jon or the cover story doesn't work. Ned basically knocked Cat up on their wedding night and then went off to war and slept with another woman due to the horrors and stresses of war. However, Jon could definitely be older than Robb. I think that there might be some obscuring of Jon's birthday, so people don't start noticing it's around the time Ned found Lyanna at the Tower.

I get that, but babies have some pretty variable term times. 38-40 weeks is the rule of thumb, but some kids are born earlier and some are born later. Depending on how soon he could have slept with someone else after he married Catelyn, it's possible for one baby to be conceived shortly after another, but be born earlier.

What's interesting about the whole thing is that Ned could have easily said he slept with someone before he married Catelyn, and that Jon was that woman's son. No dishonoring his vows. I wonder what it is about Jon — and kg1982 could be right, it could be to throw suspicion off Lyanna — that made it necessary for Ned to give the cover story that Jon was younger.

[Faint]

I'm pretty sure Jon was made out to be younger than Robb in order to cast off suspicion that he might have been conceived beforehand, which would not have made sense if Ned was the father. Truthfully, he is, in fact, probably older than Robb.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm pretty sure Jon was made out to be younger than Robb in order to cast off suspicion that he might have been conceived beforehand, which would not have made sense if Ned was the father. Truthfully, he is, in fact, probably older than Robb.

But that's the thing — it makes more sense for Ned to sow his oats before marrying Catelyn and father a bastard than it does for him to dishonor his vows to her after. That's what I mean when I say it's interesting that, for whatever reason, Ned is adamant about Jon being younger, even though by saying so, he dishonors himself by saying he broke his marriage vows. So what is it about Jon and his circumstances that make it necessary for him to be younger than Robb?

[Faint]

But that's the thing — it makes more sense for Ned to sow his oats before marrying Catelyn and father a bastard than it does for him to dishonor his vows to her after. That's what I mean when I say it's interesting that, for whatever reason, Ned is adamant about Jon being younger, even though by saying so, he dishonors himself by saying he broke his marriage vows. So what is it about Jon and his circumstances that make it necessary for him to be younger than Robb?

I think it has to do with where Jon was born. Catelyn knows that Jon, for whatever reason, was born in Dorne. I'm not sure it would have made practical sense for Ned to have fathered a son in the south that was actually older than Robb. It's far easier to sell the story that Jon was fathered during Ned's travels during the war than beforehand.

[Lord Ben]

Maybe they knew what he was up to before he war but during the war he had more unknown time to have fake conceived a child.

[Alia of the knife]

OK, R+L=J confirmed.

This basically makes it a fact.

I hate how this is making me acknowledge the existence of the SW prequels........but here we go....

Lyanna (Padme) dies in childbirth after her relationship with the "enemy", Rhaegar (Anakin), his adopter Ned (Ben) takes Jon (Luke) back to half of his biological family, where he grows up a normal kid, but feeling out of place.

He goes on a grand adventure, not knowing his parentage, and discovers it at a crucial moment in a huge twist.

It is R+L=J. Alfie Allen has spoiled it.

GRRM might as well have just posted "R+L=J" on his website.

Debate can end now..........mystery revealed.....

And, if there are twins involved here, my candidates are:

- "Aegon," who looks like Rhaegar, but acts like Lyanna, (tipping over the Cyrvasse board)

- Meera Reed, (this callout from another poster many months back)

Did Howland Reed have time to father a child as old as Jon?

I'd gotten the impression that at the time of Harrenhal and TOJ, he might have been just a little older than Benjen, so Meera would have been an infant herself at the time of TOJ.

Feel free to slam Alfies arm in the door.

[Dr. Pepper]

I think a little too much credit is given to Alfie's comments. He claims to have read some of the books but he doesn't claim to have read them with an eye for detail, more an eye for understanding his specific character. He claims that Martin has told him who Jon Snow's parents were but doesn't claim that Martin has offered the full true version of events or what it means. His comments seem to confirm what we already know - that Ned is not the father, that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar - but his connecting the story with Luke Skywalker makes it appear that he didn't read the story to pull out the detail that Rhaegar was not the evil antagonist that characters like Robert Baratheon made him out to be.

[Lady Winter Rose]

There's one illogical thing in this scenario:

Alfie Allen knows who were Jon's parents, but Kit, Sean and D&D are only ones who need to know. Why would GRRM told Alfie that fact?

I think GRRM teased Alfie.