Alfie Allen on Jon Snow's parents

[ARYa_Nym]

"Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not necessarily BE a Targaryen..."

http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1261/

He only says something vague about the third. I took this to mean that the other two most certainly will be Targaryen.

That's still tricky though because Dany obviously would be one. If Aegon is a Blackfyre technically it could be said that he's still a Targaryen.

EDIT: I also think that the heads of the dragon and the riders of the dragon may not coincide but they can. Dany would be a rider and a head. Someone who is not a head could ride one though in Essos I think. It was brought up in ADWD how Balerion had other riders after Aegon I died and I wouldn't be surprised if that comes into play in the books.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

EDIT: I also think that the heads of the dragon and the riders of the dragon may not coincide but they can. Dany would be a rider and a head. Someone who is not a head could ride one though in Essos I think. It was brought up in ADWD how Balerion had other riders after Aegon I died and I wouldn't be surprised if that comes into play in the books.

That's actually a huge reason why I think that the idea of "three heads = three riders" is a misdirection that people nonetheless use as a jumping-off point. It's possible for one or two or even all three of the dragons to have multiple riders.

As for "well the third head doesn't have to be X," how is it "decided" which head is which? Chronological addition? Is Martin suggesting that two heads have already been revealed? Why is it the third head specifically that "doesn't have to be a Targaryen," but not the second head? How are the heads numerically "designated"?

[ARYa_Nym]

That's actually a huge reason why I think that the idea of "three heads = three riders" is a misdirection that people nonetheless use as a jumping-off point. It's possible for one or two or even all three of the dragons to have multiple riders.

As for "well the third head doesn't have to be X," how is it "decided" which head is which? Chronological addition? Is Martin suggesting that two heads have already been revealed? Why is it the third head specifically that "doesn't have to be a Targaryen," but not the second head? How are the heads numerically "designated"?

Most people assumed that Jon and Dany are two of the heads. If he says that the third isn't necessarily a Targaryen that opens up more possibilities. Or as Faint said he could just be being sneaky and is talking about a Targ bastard or a Blackfyre.

The dragons can have multiple riders but only after the rider dies. I think someone in Essos could maybe help bring the dragons to Westeros and later the remaining two heads can take over.

EDIT: I'm not saying this will happen but let's say that one of the Greyjoy brothers manages to tame a dragon and Aegon gets the other one. That doesn't mean that Jon isn't one of the heads because Victarion and Euron will most likely die eventually.

[Alia of the knife]

Most people assumed that Jon and Dany are two of the heads. If he says that the third isn't necessarily a Targaryen that opens up more possibilities. Or as Faint said he could just be being sneaky and is talking about a Targ bastard or a Blackfyre.

The dragons can have multiple riders but only after the rider dies. I think someone in Essos could maybe help bring the dragons to Westeros and later the remaining two heads can take over.

EDIT: I'm not saying this will happen but let's say that one of the Greyjoy brothers manages to tame a dragon and Aegon gets the other one. That doesn't mean that Jon isn't one of the heads because Victarion and Euron will most likely die eventually.

Besides the Boltens, the Greyjoys are the last family I want to see get anything. :ack:

[Princess_of_Sunspear]

Besides the Boltens, the Greyjoys are the last family I want to see get anything. :ack:

Ditto. I doubt Greyjoys would achieve much re Daenerys>

[ServantOnIce]

Has Alfie read all of the books? If not, then the only thing he will know about Rhaegar is what the show has said, which is that he kidnapped and raped Lyanna. So according to that perception of events, Rhaegar as Darth Vader fits quite nicely.

Many of the actors haven't read the books . . I don't know about Alfie but it is a good question.

[ARYa_Nym]

Besides the Boltens, the Greyjoys are the last family I want to see get anything. :ack:

I don't like it but I see it as a possibility. I think Euron might have certain strange prophetic abilities but I don't have the time RN to look up the quotes but it doesn't bode well if he seems to think that he's going to fly. He's made strange comments like a raven told him to fly when he was young and then there was a time when he and Victarion were talking about which one of them would be king. & it went something like Victarion saying we shall see and Euron pointed to his eye and was like we shall. It was very strange but I don't have the quotes on me.

I think Tyrion, Dany, and Jon are the most likely at this stage but there's room for others.

[ServantOnIce]

Lord Eddard = Uncle Ben, who was related to Anakin by marriage (when Anakin's mother married that dude who got injured fighting the Sand people).

Catelyn Stark = Aunt Beru (sp?)

Jon Snow = Luke Skywalker so Jon Snow is the Prince that was Promised?? So GRRM tossed us a bone?

Jon Snow kissed his sister who is Ygritte. Ygritte is the daughter of Eddard and Ashara Dayne. He took her north to the wall and gave her to Mance to raise. Mance Rayder is a Stark . . not of the main family but the side family.

Who knows . . . but what if GRRM was saying Jon's father is still alive? Remember Anakin was alive . . . . hmmm

Don't know . . . .

Roose Bolton is Jon Snow's father as Darth Vader was/is a villain ?????

[Princess_of_Sunspear]

Lord Eddard = Uncle Ben, who was related to Anakin by marriage (when Anakin's mother married that dude who got injured fighting the Sand people).

Catelyn Stark = Aunt Beru (sp?)

Jon Snow = Luke Skywalker so Jon Snow is the Prince that was Promised?? So GRRM tossed us a bone?

Jon Snow kissed his sister who is Ygritte. Ygritte is the daughter of Eddard and Ashara Dayne. He took her north to the wall and gave her to Mance to raise. Mance Rayder is a Stark . . not of the main family but the side family.

Who knows . . . but what if GRRM was saying Jon's father is still alive? Remember Anakin was alive . . . . hmmm

Don't know . . . .

Roose Bolton is Jon Snow's father as Darth Vader was/is a villain ?????

Ygritte shows none of the features of either Ned or Ashara. Nor is Ned a kind of man to give his child to be raised amongst wildlings, surely?

[tyrions sliced nose]

wow all of you are wrong. Its pretty obvious that Alfie misunderstood the question and was thinking of Jamie lannister.

Twin sister(cersei)that he kisses just like luke did with laia. Jamies hand was cut off just like Lukes hand was. And everyones still questioning if hes actually Tywins son when it seems pretty obvious Aerys took his mother. Pretty obvious.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I get that, but babies have some pretty variable term times. 38-40 weeks is the rule of thumb, but some kids are born earlier and some are born later. Depending on how soon he could have slept with someone else after he married Catelyn, it's possible for one baby to be conceived shortly after another, but be born earlier.

What's interesting about the whole thing is that Ned could have easily said he slept with someone before he married Catelyn, and that Jon was that woman's son. No dishonoring his vows. I wonder what it is about Jon — and kg1982 could be right, it could be to throw suspicion off Lyanna — that made it necessary for Ned to give the cover story that Jon was younger.

Interesting! I had not thought about this in depth, but you are right that this is questionable, and it should be discussed more. Maybe you should start a thread to discuss this further, I would like to read any thoughts, opinions or theories concerning this.

Well, so far as legitimate riders go, sure. But there’s always the Brothers Greyjoy and their Valyrian hell horn.

Me, I’m thinking that Bran will seize the reins of whichever dragon the hellhorn lets Victarion and/or Urine Euron ride, and dump the bugger into the sea from a mile or two in the sky. Squid soup!

Bloodraven might use his own skills at sorcery to help break the hell horn’s sorcerous grip on the dragon, merhaps distracting it or messing with its willpower while Bran moves in for the skinchanging.

I have wondered if the hell horn could actually drive out a warg from the dragon. The horn supposedly makes the dragon obey it's master so it would be even more usefull if it prevented wargs taking control. I know this is far fetched but I find the possibilites interesting.

I really want to see Rickon come back riding something unusual. Maybe Ricky’ll ride Shaggy and wield a spear made from the horn of some unicorn that they killed and ate on Skagos.

I’m completely positive that Martin is going to demolish the cutesy unicorn trope by having Rickon chowing down on them. I believe “Jon” already saw a vision of Shaggy fighting one. Or was that Bran? Can’t remember.

Here is the quote from Jon in Dance;

A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him.

So did Martin already demolish the unicorn trope with goats? There have been mentions of unicorns though, but not with descriptions of their appearance ( what I found during a quick check anyway )

Leaf says, "The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred."

Then Jon sees this when Tormund's group moves south of the Wall, "And there were queerer things: a toy mammoth made of actual mammoth hair, an ivory phallus, a helm made from a unicorn’s head, complete with horn."

I don't like it but I see it as a possibility. I think Euron might have certain strange prophetic abilities but I don't have the time RN to look up the quotes but it doesn't bode well if he seems to think that he's going to fly. He's made strange comments like a raven told him to fly when he was young and then there was a time when he and Victarion were talking about which one of them would be king. & it went something like Victarion saying we shall see and Euron pointed to his eye and was like we shall. It was very strange but I don't have the quotes on me.

I think Tyrion, Dany, and Jon are the most likely at this stage but there's room for others.

Here is one of the quotes,

Victarion’s face darkened. "When the kingsmoot speaks, we shall see who wears the driftwood crown."

"On that we can agree." Euron lifted two fingers to the patch that covered his left eye, and took his leave.

[Teal'c]

What, you mean like Twyin and Joanna (double-)Lannister, or like Cregan and Alys double-)Karstark?

Even Dany is a double-Targaryen, who’s her own first cousin, twice no less.

Just like Jaime and Cersei are each other’s second cousin twice over, and Joffrey and Marcella and Tommen are not only siblings but also each other’s first and third cousins each twice over.

In the same way, if Rhaegar and Lyanna are “Jon” Snow’s parents, then Dany is more than just his aunt alone. They’re also cousins of one or another sort.

I still think Joffrey and Marcella should look more alike than Jaime and Cersei did; the only excuse I can think of is if Jaime and Cersei are actually half-identical twins, sharing the same (split) X chromosome from Joanna, and then having distinct X and Y chromosomes from their father, presumably Tywin. It’s even possible that the non-identical X and the Y components aren’t even from the same father, but then they wouldn’t be likely to look so much alike. That situation of twins who are only half-siblings happens much more often than people think, and certainly much more often than the half-identical twin thing.

If Cersei had a Y chromosome, she'd have that penis she always wanted! Edit: I see I misread your post the first time but I MUST leave this joke here.

Cersei will have two X chromosomes, one from each parent, and Jaime will have an X from Joanna and a Y from his father. Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen would have more homozygous genes than Cersai and Jaime, being fraternal twins, but this would not necessarily translate into looking more alike, because there would still be independent assortment and polygenic traits at work.

Fraternal twins can have two different fathers, but it would be rare.

[Teal'c]

It occurs to me after all this discussion about how Jon might mirror Luke Skywalker, that we have a much stronger candidate for the Luke Skywalker comparison in Jaime Lannister. Especially if you think he belongs to Aerys, which I do.

Looks like Tyrion's Sliced Nose beat me to it!

[Jamie Lannister]

I wonder how the TV series will handle this. I have a feeling they'll retcon devil boy Joffrey into a time traveler who forces Rhaegar and Lyanna to do it at crossbow point.

"HARDER!"

[Alia of the knife]

wow all of you are wrong. Its pretty obvious that Alfie misunderstood the question and was thinking of Jamie lannister.

Twin sister(cersei)that he kisses just like luke did with laia. Jamies hand was cut off just like Lukes hand was. And everyones still questioning if hes actually Tywins son when it seems pretty obvious Aerys took his mother. Pretty obvious.

I thought he was asked specifically about Jons parentage.

And as much as Jaimie might have a redemptive arc, he's still a jerk considering what he did to Bran.

I think Skywalker, while he might have potentially had a darkness to him, made a deliberate choice not to go to the darkside.

It's very possible that Cersei and Jaimie are Aerys- I'd even bet on it, but if so, then I think they are there to provide more of a backdrop for Targaryen madness, and why they behaved the way they did.

Tywin, who I think in some ways just as mad as Aerys, but with his own daddy issues, aggravated Cersei's burgeoning madness with his own ambition.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Cersei will have two X chromosomes, one from each parent, and Jaime will have an X from Joanna and a Y from his father.

Fraternal twins can have two different fathers, but it would be rare.

I’m saying that Joanna’s egg could have split via meiosis, essentially cloning it, and then the resulting two duplicate eggs were each fertilized by different sperm.

Apparently, this sort of thing actually happens, although they aren’t sure how. From Wikipedia:

Semi-identical Twins

Half-identical

or

semi-identical

twins

(also referred to as "half twins") are the result of a very rare form of twinning in which the twins inherit exactly the same genes from their mother but different genes from their father. Although examples of half-identical twins have been found, the exact mechanism of their conception is not well-understood, but could theoretically occur in polar body twinning where sperm cells fertilize both the ovum and the second polar body.

This situation is not the same as the common form of fraternal twinning, in which two genetically different ova are fertilized by two genetically different sperm. In this case, the ova are genetically identical.

Types

There are two mechanisms by which this might happen:

• Polar twins (or "polar body twins"), where two sperm fertilize an ovum, one of the two fertilizing a polar body; or where an ovum splits into identical copies, one containing a polar body, prior to fertilization, allowing it to be fertilized by two different sperm.
  
• Sesquizygotic twins, where two sperm fertilize the one ovum, forming a triploid, and then splitting.
  

A 1981 study of a deceased triploid

XXX

twin fetus without a heart showed that although its fetal development suggested that it was an identical twin, as it shared a placenta with its healthy twin, tests revealed that it was likely a polar body twin. The authors were unable to predict whether a healthy fetus could result from a polar body twinning. In 2003 a study argued that many cases of triploidity arise from semi-identical twinning. In 2007, a study reported a case of a pair of living twins, one a hermaphrodite and one a phenotypical male. The twins were both found to be chimeras and to share all of their maternal

DNA

but only half of their father's

DNA

. The exact mechanism of fertilization could not be determined but the study stated that it was unlikely to be a case of polar body twinning

.

This might explain why Jaime and Cersei looked so much alike as children. Much easier than truly monozygotic twins with differerent sexual phenotypes. Instead of being related to each other by R=½ like fraternal twins, or by R=1 as in monozygotic twins, they might be related by R=¾, which is the same amount of relatedness that their children would share if they were just regular brother and sister.

See what I mean? I can really see Jaime and Cersei being chimeras. ; )

[ICE & FIRE bender]

I’m saying that Joanna’s egg could have split via meiosis, essentially cloning it, and then the resulting two duplicate eggs were each fertilized by different sperm.

Apparently, this sort of thing actually happens, although they aren’t sure how. From Wikipedia:

Semi-identical Twins

Half-identical

or

semi-identical

twins

(also referred to as "half twins") are the result of a very rare form of twinning in which the twins inherit exactly the same genes from their mother but different genes from their father. Although examples of half-identical twins have been found, the exact mechanism of their conception is not well-understood, but could theoretically occur in polar body twinning where sperm cells fertilize both the ovum and the second polar body.

This situation is not the same as the common form of fraternal twinning, in which two genetically different ova are fertilized by two genetically different sperm. In this case, the ova are genetically identical.

Types

There are two mechanisms by which this might happen:

• Polar twins (or "polar body twins"), where two sperm fertilize an ovum, one of the two fertilizing a polar body; or where an ovum splits into identical copies, one containing a polar body, prior to fertilization, allowing it to be fertilized by two different sperm.
  
• Sesquizygotic twins, where two sperm fertilize the one ovum, forming a triploid, and then splitting.
  

A 1981 study of a deceased triploid

XXX

twin fetus without a heart showed that although its fetal development suggested that it was an identical twin, as it shared a placenta with its healthy twin, tests revealed that it was likely a polar body twin. The authors were unable to predict whether a healthy fetus could result from a polar body twinning. In 2003 a study argued that many cases of triploidity arise from semi-identical twinning. In 2007, a study reported a case of a pair of living twins, one a hermaphrodite and one a phenotypical male. The twins were both found to be chimeras and to share all of their maternal

DNA

but only half of their father's

DNA

. The exact mechanism of fertilization could not be determined but the study stated that it was unlikely to be a case of polar body twinning

.

This might explain why Jaime and Cersei looked so much alike as children. Much easier than truly monozygotic twins with differerent sexual phenotypes. Instead of being related to each other by R=½ like fraternal twins, or by R=1 as in monozygotic twins, they might be related by R=¾, which is the same amount of relatedness that their children would share if they were just regular brother and sister.

See what I mean? I can really see Jaime and Cersei being chimeras. ; )

:stillsick:

[Eyron]

Yep I'm still a firm R+L=J supporter, but I like drigolys presentation of the Aerys+Lyanna=Jon theory anyway.

But that's the thing — it makes more sense for Ned to sow his oats before marrying Catelyn and father a bastard than it does for him to dishonor his vows to her after. That's what I mean when I say it's interesting that, for whatever reason, Ned is adamant about Jon being younger, even though by saying so, he dishonors himself by saying he broke his marriage vows. So what is it about Jon and his circumstances that make it necessary for him to be younger than Robb?

I thought Ned said Jon was younger because of Catelyn and for the reasons that bloocanary mentions, to eliminate rivalry between the brothers about the lordship. I'm not sure how Cat would have handled his bastard son being the eldest of the children. She was alredy mistrusting of Ned at the time and that Robb was definitely the oldest could have been a reassurance somehow.

As mentioned it could also throw some suspicions off from the child being Lyannas son perhaps if that would be needed. Since babies grow so differently he could pass for younger even if he wasn't. In the books Robb is also mentioned as a big boy, maybe he was even as a baby.

I don't recall if we are told specifically but maybe Neds whereabouts before he left for war were too well known, and he wanted it to be more vague as to where Jon was conceived and born? Just to throw people off track and not being called out on a lie.

[Eyron]

Oh and thanks Arya_Nym for this quote, Ygritte to Jon:

“Craster’s more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village…”

I don't know, is this a very subtle clue to Jon's parentage? To Ygritte Craster's father is a southerner, and the woman from Whitetree a true northerner. Rhaegar is a southerner who stole Lyanna from the north. Craster practice incest, the Targaryens (Jon's kind) also do that.

I am not suggesting that Ygritte knows anything about Jon's parentage, just thought this may be a sort of hidden clue...

I may be overthinking this a little. :leaving:

[Fire Eater]

To respond to the OP it's along the lines of Yoda in Return of the Jedi saying to Luke on his deathbed "There is another Skywalker" just like there is a hidden Skywalker just like there is a hidden Targaryen. Luke was hidden from the Emperor like Jon was hidden from King Robert.

Luke was raised by his uncle, Owen Lars, like Luke is raised by his uncle, Ned Stark, with each uncle being killed in the first volume of their series.