Dragonfish Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 The point is, she's the one associated with them, not Rhaegar. So the blue rose vision to symbolize her child is just as valid, and not a contradiction.No, as I said, Rhaegar is also associated with them, because he gave Lyanna those flowers. They symbolize the link between them.Anyway, this wasn't even my main point, which is that the timeline precludes A+L=J. Aerys can't be the father because he wasn't around Lyanna when Jon was conceived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 No, as I said, Rhaegar is also associated with them, because he gave Lyanna those flowers. They symbolize the link between them.Anyway, this wasn't even my main point, which is that the timeline precludes A+L=J. Aerys can't be the father because he wasn't around Lyanna when Jon was conceived.You don't know where she was when she conceived Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledlevee Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Does Theon say anything about incest? When people think Luke Skywalker, they think Darth Vader saying "I am your father," not incest. Yeah, he kissed his sister, but that was just poor planning on George Lucas's part and people have blown it way out of proportion. I guarantee you what Allen meant with that comment was that people will be surprised when they find out who Jon's father is. Reading anything else into his comments like "Oh, so Jon and Dany are going to get together" is a HUGE stretch. That's most definitely not what he meant.On the other hand, this pretty much confirms that R+L=J is true. A+L=J wouldn't work because Aerys was at King's Landing and Rhaegar was with Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. I don't think there's any evidence that Aerys left King's Landing during this time, or that Lyanna was brought to King's Landing. It was geographically impossible for Aerys to rape Lyanna. And I don't think R+L was rape either. I think it was a consensual relationship. Rhaegar is poet/musician type character and I could see him doing things for love even though he's supposed to be "contemplative and responsible." I'm sure he could also be rash and emotional at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 You don't know where she was when she conceived Jon.She sure as hell wasn't in King's Landing. If she was, then how did Rhaegar get a hold of her and bring her to the tower of joy? He was gone from King's Landing from around the time Brandon charged into the Red Keep up until a few months into the war. Not to mention that if she really was in King's Landing the whole time, then Jaime surely would have brought it up during one of his many recollections of the period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 She sure as hell wasn't in King's Landing. If she was, then how did Rhaegar get a hold of her and bring her to the tower of joy? He was gone from King's Landing from around the time Brandon charged into the Red Keep up until a few months into the war. Not to mention that if she really was in King's Landing the whole time, then Jaime surely would have brought it up during one of his many recollections of the period.So many assumptions by you presumed as facts. How do you know she wasn't locked up in King's Landing somewhere, it's a big place. Rhaegar might have rescued her and spirited her away later. He might be away looking for her at the time of Brandon's arrival. Jaime's might not have known about it as it was carried out by somebody else other than the King's Guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 So many assumptions by you presumed as facts. How do you know she wasn't locked up in King's Landing somewhere, it's a big place. Rhaegar might have rescued her and spirited her away later. He might be away looking for her at the time of Brandon's arrival. Jaime's might not have known about it as it was carried out by somebody else other than the King's Guard.So Aerys kidnaps Lyanna and hides her in a secret location in King's Landing, keeps it secret from everyone, yet despite this fact Rhaegar learns of it and clandestinely rescues her, goes back to the South, then returns to King's Landing, all without anyone knowing it was ever there? Do you not see how many contrivances and absurdities your theory rests on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 What contradictions? If it was a secret and clandestine location of course nobody knows about. That's the whole point. The only way Rhaegar could have rescued her was to keep the whole thing quiet, so that nobody knew he was coming. Dayne might have helped him. Jaime was probably not the person either Aerys or Rhaegar trusted so he was out of the loop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 What contradictions? If it was a secret and clandestine location of course nobody knows about. That's the whole point. The only way Rhaegar could have rescued her was to keep the whole thing quiet, so that nobody knew he was coming. Dayne might have helped him. Jaime was probably not the person either Aerys or Rhaegar trusted so he was out of the loop.What doesn't make sense is the idea that it was a secret, yet still known to Rhaegar. And it doesn't make sense that after secretly rescuing Lyanna he then goes back South and then back up North, all without anybody ever knowing he'd ever been to King's Landing. It also doesn't make sense that the Kingsguard would be staying at the tower of joy after the Sack, when the supposed new king was holed away on Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. The only way to explain that descrepancy is if Jon was somehow legitimate, which is virtually impossible if he was the product of rape between Aerys and Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Does Theon say anything about incest? When people think Luke Skywalker, they think Darth Vader saying "I am your father," not incest. Yeah, he kissed his sister, but that was just poor planning on George Lucas's part and people have blown it way out of proportion. I guarantee you what Allen meant with that comment was that people will be surprised when they find out who Jon's father is. Reading anything else into his comments like "Oh, so Jon and Dany are going to get together" is a HUGE stretch. That's most definitely not what he meant.On the other hand, this pretty much confirms that R+L=J is true. A+L=J wouldn't work because Aerys was at King's Landing and Rhaegar was with Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. I don't think there's any evidence that Aerys left King's Landing during this time, or that Lyanna was brought to King's Landing. It was geographically impossible for Aerys to rape Lyanna. And I don't think R+L was rape either. I think it was a consensual relationship. Rhaegar is poet/musician type character and I could see him doing things for love even though he's supposed to be "contemplative and responsible." I'm sure he could also be rash and emotional at times. He does mention incest, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedievalGenius Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I don't think that incest was a factor. I just think it may be a way to throw the Targaryeans into the conversation. Hinting to R + L = J because we know that by while Ned may not be his father Jon is a Stark.A coworker (who hasn't read the books and doesn't plan to) read the article and now wonders if Ned had an affair with Dany's mother (I wanted to tell her it wasn't possible but she didn't want to hear book spoilers). She and several people I know have no clue that Ned isn't Jon's father and it will be a Darth Vader moment for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 What doesn't make sense is the idea that it was a secret, yet still known to Rhaegar. And it doesn't make sense that after secretly rescuing Lyanna he then goes back South and then back up North, all without anybody ever knowing he'd ever been to King's Landing. It also doesn't make sense that the Kingsguard would be staying at the tower of joy after the Sack, when the supposed new king was holed away on Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. The only way to explain that descrepancy is if Jon was somehow legitimate, which is virtually impossible if he was the product of rape between Aerys and Lyanna.Known to Rhaegar because Arthur Dayne found out and told him. People don't know he's been there because he came secretly to rescue her and take her some place far away from KL.He comes back later after the war erupts and he's needed to quell the rebellion. So he decides to subdue the rebellion first and then deal with Aerys, as he said to Jaime. The Kingsguard stayed at the TOJ because they were the ones sent to get him and he commanded them to stay.There is nothing contradictory about any part of this theory if you use a little imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Known to Rhaegar because Arthur Dayne found out and told him. People don't know he's been there because he came secretly to rescue her and take her some place far away from KL.He comes back later after the war erupts and he's needed to quell the rebellion. So he decides to subdue the rebellion first and then deal with Aerys, as he said to Jaime. Your timeline is wrong. Jon was conceived a few months into the war. So Rhaegar would have had to come to King's Landing during the war, take Lyanna south, then march back up to King's Landing, all without anyone knowing he'd been there.The Kingsguard stayed at the TOJ because they were the ones sent to get him and he commanded them to stay.This doesn't explain why they stayed at the ToJ after Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon had died. At that point, their loyalties ought to have transferred to Viserys.There is nothing contradictory about any part of this theory if you use a little imagination.I never said it was contradictory, I said it was contrived and absurd.And you can make anything seem possible using "a little imagination." That doesn't make a theory good, or likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Jon's time of conception has not been nailed down specifically. We know the general time, but nothing specific enough to say that it was this month or that month. All we know is that it's around the same time as Robb.So to categorically deny something as impossible because of the timeline is simply taking a speculation as though it is established fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Jon's time of conception has not been nailed down specifically. We know the general time, but nothing specific enough to say that it was this month or that month. All we know is that it's around the same time as Robb.Which was still after the war began, making my previous post still correct.So to categorically deny something as impossible because of the timeline is simply taking a speculation as though it is established fact.What did I say that was speculation? George has specifically said that Jon was born around 8-9 months before Daenerys, which would put his birth at around the Sack or sometime after, and his conception at a few months into the year-long war. Do you disagree with any of these facts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Lannister Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Just one thing... Before granting them permission to film, GRRM asked D&D who Jon Snow's parents were, and they gave the correct answer. I seriously, seriously doubt they said Aerys & Lyanna. I mean, how many have people speculated Aerys to be Jon's father at that point? 0.00001%?This says it all to me. Not only is R+L=J the premier fan theory, but Dave & Dan have an account on Westeros.org too, so they'd be very aware of its prevalence regardless. I'm sure it would be the answer they'd give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Well, let's take a look at this time line as established by Errant Bardhttp://asoiaf.wester...lobal-timeline/According to his calculations, Dany was born 5/25/284. If Jon was born 9 month before that, he would have been born sometime in August of 283, which means he was conceived probably December of 282. We know the War doesn't really get going until Ned marries Cat and the Tullys are brought into the war, and that happens March of 283.So no, it's not entirely certain that Jon was conceived after the War has been going on for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHedgeWizard Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Well Rheagar is considered to have Kidnapped and Raped Lyanna. So i am sure he would be considered evil by the Starks. Rhaegar is Darth Vader and Jon is Luke Skywalker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 What he's actually saying is that whoever first cuts off Jon's hand is his father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Martell Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Balon Greyjoy is his father, and his less-than-friend Theon is his brother. Cue "NOOOOOOOOOOO!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirePuppy Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 OK then N+L=J? eeeewww Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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