Can I have more sexism, please?

[Guest Raidne]

I don't know if should I be continue to fail to understand how people take gendered stereotypes so much less seriously than racial stereotypes or if I should just be happily surprised that (most) of the same people were (mostly) convinced to be sensitive to racial stereotypes? I mean, would someone ever, ever, ever send out an email that said "Hi parents we're going to need some help with the accounting from the school fair, so if any Asian parents want to help out, we could really use you in the office on Tuesday night."

[drawkcabi]

1. If you were the parent receiving that note, would have you noticed the sexism?

Yes, I think so.

2. If yes, what would you have done with regards to (1) your child and (2) the teacher/school?

While I applaud the mom for what she did and if I was a part of that email/school circle I would back her and defend her against anyone I felt trying to tell her what she did was wrong.

Initally however, no, I would not have picked this battle. If I was married and had a wife that wished to participate I would have encouraged her to do so inspite of what the email said, only if she got responses that she explicitly couldn't because of her gender, then I would consider that a call to arms.

3. Do you have similar experience to share?

Genderwise, no, but I know what it's like because of how I look to be categorized in ways that are so not me.

[The Warmth of Winter]

1. Oh, definitely.

2. I would have at least raged about it for an hour. Then would've most likely contacted the person responsible for the note. I would probably be stopping myself from writing something dripping with sarcasm and gone the route Lyanna proposed.

3. Nothing like this mainly because I don't actually have children but I've seen similar things. The worst thing, I feel, is when people are sexist and unaware of it, thinking they're incredibly progressive.

Some time ago I was given a poll by two young women writing their Bachelor's thesis. They wouldn't tell me or my classmates what it was about but from the questions it was fairly obvious it had to do with gender roles in a school environment, "girls vs boys, who gets the most attention from the teacher, is School really fair to both genders" and all that jazz. The problem was, which silently drove me insane, that they had a question asking the poll-taker to choose three adjectives from a long list which you thought best described girls, with the next question having the same adjectives but asking you to choose three, which, according to you, best described boys. They naturally had the same adjectives for both questions (something I'm sure they were silently smug about thinking they'd actually done something good). They effectively forced you to generalize or to use stereotypes regardless if you picked "shy, quiet, cute" or "loud, strong, funny" for boys/girls. They didn't even give you the chance to say "Hey. These are obviously things which differ in between individuals. I don't believe in generalizing.".

No. They f*cking make you fill something incredibly sexist so that they then can take the poll results and draw whatever conclusions they f*cking like. Again, they were university students doing their thesis, students who I imagined were pretty "aware" of stereotypes and were eager to do something about it since they chose the topic they did. Perfect example of people thinking they're doing good while actually unwittingly doing the exact opposite.

I asked them if I had to answer those two questions since they were extremely stupid. They said "yes". I said "really?". They said "yes". I ended up not saying anything more about it, chose the same adjectives for both girls and boys and proceeded to be pissed off for the rest of the day.

[Kalbear]

As an aside - by far the most effective way shown to change people's minds is to shame via the group. Public shaming is a huge if not the biggest way to affect moral change. Emailing in private does nothing by comparison.

[Nukelavee]

Oh wait, am I being over the top here by focusing on the meaning of a word and the selection of a word in a written communication that was poorly worded (and probably hastily written)?

Pretty much, yes, over the top. Because you basically explained everything with the last half of the sentence" poorly worded, hastily written.

Haven't we already covered the "just because you decide it's an atrocity, doesn't mean it is" in another topic.

Of course, maybe the point was to get Dads to show up....seeing as it's usually Mom showing up to help with events (in my experience).

Naw, that's nutty, nobody would be that subtle, go to be somebody intentionally grinding down females.

[Apoapsis]

As an aside - by far the most effective way shown to change people's minds is to shame via the group. Public shaming is a huge if not the biggest way to affect moral change. Emailing in private does nothing by comparison.

It's also one of the most effective ways to make everyone think you're a dick. Which, in this particular case, would be quite ironic.

[Guest Raidne]

This is a good point, but a problem for many people. Shaming the group is not the same thing as venting your outrage. It is not an honest process, but a deeply manipulative one. I doubt most people felt shamed by the email that was sent, because, for one, most people aren't going to understand why they should care about that kind of thing and at least half of the rest of the people want an excuse to go along with the majority opinion. Being incendiary in approach gives those people that excuse.

And, if all you want to do is honestly share your feelings, who cares? But if you want to shame the group, you're better off sending an email that says something like "Ladies, I have no idea why [teacher's name] thinks you can't do something that a man can do, do you? Let's prove her wrong for our daughters' sake and show up on Saturday since it looks like there are still people out there who think men are better at some things than women just because they're men. Who's with me? Men, try to keep up."

ETA: Just wanted to add that I have big reservations about this us vs. them approach but the Designing Women brand of "feminism" has the most appeal to the masses and the idea is to win people over to the point where the teacher feels like a total tool for writing the email that way and will never do it again, right?

[Nukelavee]

I think you should take the mod's word on how well those roll off the tongue....

[Thlayli]

Nukelavee,

Not sure anyone characterized the Penis-Assisted Trebuchet Rite invitation as an atrocity. Merely sexist. And exclusionary to single mothers. This needed to be pointed out and not just to the sender where the issue can be more easily ignored, in my opinion.

Also, no one equated this exchange as an attempt to grind down women.

Of course, you may be having an inner dialogue with yourself. If so, carry on.

[naz]

"Hi parents we're going to need some help with the accounting from the school fair, so if any Asian parents want to help out, we could really use you in the office on Tuesday night."

This is a thing? I wish I'd known that.

[a wooden chair]

2) Public mockery on the sexism via email followed by volunteering at the event while wearing a giant penis hat. Nobody is gonna keep me from a fucking trebuchet, and if having a penis attached to my person is required to volunteer, well fuck it. Wear a penis I will. Bonus round if the teacher is one of those types that assumes that women can't deal with math and science. Beatings with the penis hat optional.

Balls off chin (Note, Chinballs optional but more manly) or Warming your ears?

Read it as fucking a trebuchet, which I had assumed would be done with said hat. Feeling robbed after my reread.

[TerraPrime]

Balls off chin (Note, Chinballs optional but more manly) or Warming your ears?

Did you get RaceBannon's permission to share his private photos in public?

[a wooden chair]

Did you get RaceBannon's permission to share his private photos in public?

He should be happy they are getting some use and making others happy, unlike sexism.

[Guest Raidne]

Naz - math is about as related to accounting as physical strength is to the task here.

[Shryke]

Some of you might have seen this on FB or G+ already. But in case you haven't:

The Penis Mom (everything is work-safe at that link)

So here's my question to you all:

1. If you were the parent receiving that note, would have you noticed the sexism?

2. If yes, what would you have done with regards to (1) your child and (2) the teacher/school?

3. Do you have similar experience to share?

1. I'd like to think I'd notice, but I can't say for certain.

2. Still participated but sent a "WTF is with just asking for dads?" email back.

3. Obviously not, given 1. :P

In general though, she totally did the right thing. :thumbsup: from me.

[kairparavel]

I also find it shockingly puritanical that so many people think that the word Penis is an inappropriate word.

If you say it on the floor of the Michigan State House it'll get you banned!

Oh wait.

Wrong word.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Balls off chin (Note, Chinballs optional but more manly) or Warming your ears?

Read it as fucking a trebuchet, which I had assumed would be done with said hat. Feeling robbed after my reread.

:lol:

I would NEVER fuck a trebuchet. I might engage it a bit of surreptitious frottage, mind, but always with the PG-13 designation in mind!

I really want that hat in the second link. The first one looks like a merkin gone wrong.

[Xray the Enforcer]

I suddenly feel much closer to Hereward, by the way. His illicit love affair with a Massey-Ferguson takes on new shades of tragedy when I contemplate consummating my love with a little 800-pound flinger using the Angry Ambassador (the name I have given to my knit-hat phallus). *sigh*

[Ixodes]

Being a white male insulates me from alot of that but working in a female dominated profession does give me brief glimpses. My favorite story:

Senior year of school we had a rotation where we rode with equine veterinarians visiting horse farms in the area. The morning we would go over rounds then split off, each student picking a clinician to ride with that day. I was the only male student in that rotation and that morning Dr. B tells me right off the bat "Ix, you are riding with me today." Dr. B is one of the most intelligent veterinarians in the equine profession and there was a draft horse farm that always requested her. The farm was owned by a retired federal judge that was a bit of a character.

This judge, working with large draft horses, had it in his mind that Dr B, no matter how briliant, was just too petite to work with these large beasts. So whenever he would schedule a visit, he would go on and on about how she was to bring only male students to help her, since men were "better" at handling these big horses. Since women account for 75%+ of each class, she would usually show up with a female student, only to hear him complain that she didn't bring any men with her. When this client scheduled the appointment she reassured him that she had a capable male student that would be assisting her and she could hear the sigh of relief in his voice.

Now for full disclosure: I am short (5'6") with a small frame. We come rolling up to this farm, the owner is waiting for us. I jump out of the truck and he takes one brief look at me then turns to Dr B and says "I thought you were going to show up with a man today?" Dr B looks over at me and busts out laughing. Client goes on a tirade, "Next time I want a man. You know, taller and bigger than him. This (points at me offhand) is no better than any of those girls you usually bring." Dr B nods and we proceed to work on the horses, the whole time Dr B is laughing and laughing. We finish the call and get back into the truck. Dr B tells me "Now you know how I feel," and for the rest of the rotation she can't look at me without laughing. I did get an A, though.

[Marie August]

For the record, I am a weak female. I'm not capable of lifting heavy things. So I am not offended when it is correctly assumed that I don't want to do lifting, and that I would not be as capable.

Yes, many women are quite as capable as men. But generally, men do have more upper body strength.