Catelyn Stark: A Denouncement

[Mulled Wino]

Jon felt that he would never be accepted into the family for reasons other than simply Cat's attitude towards him. He reflects on how Sansa had kept her distance from him, and how even Robb made an innocent comment about him being a bastard once when they were little. I wouldn't put the onus of Jon feeling like an outsider solely on Cat (not that you were doing that specifically).

Cat's feelings towards Jon also never prevented him from largely enjoying a similar upbringing as the Stark kids. We know he trained alongside Robb, played with all the others, and was very much included. He even mentions having handled Ice loads and loads of times, which seems like a pretty sweet privilege. So what if he didn't get to sit with the family when the king and his court visited? I fail to see how Cat's coldness toward Jon ruined his childhood.

What i am saying is that they way she treated him was inappropriate. I dont agree with it. I definitely think just being a bastard in general is tough enough in WESTEROS with out having to deal with a cold and distant "step mother". She was punishing jon, consciously i believed for ned's cheating and i feel that's wrong.

[jons nissa]

I think very few women would have acted differently and it does make for a more accurate character. Essentially, Ned told Cat that he cheated on her and that the proof of that would be in front of her face every single day with her not having any say in it and him refusing to provide her with any explanation. Many women would not react by welcoming that child with open arms. I certainly would not and I feel no guilt over that fact.

of course there should be no guilty feelings. punishing a child for the husband's mistake is very logical. i mean that happens a lot - even in modern times. cat is indeed being very real in her interactions here. and i'm really serious about that. many women do this everyday.

[Elder Sister]

I've enjoyed reading this thread; I always get a charge out of how strongly people react to the ASoIaF characters. And Catelyn is one (like Sansa) that really seems to get folks tied in knots. For myself, I like Catelyn (and Sansa), mainly because she seems so real. She's too impetuous, and seems to be convinced (at the time) of the correctness of her actions. I also like the fact that GRRM gives us her pov so that we can be with her as she realizes the implications/results of her actions. That's pretty cool.

Catelyn has character traits that I dislike in myself and in others...but I still like her as a character. She's one of the most interesting characters in the series, even when I want to slap her for something she's said or done.

[Winterfellian]

Okay, yes, everyone, the one incident with Cat was an anomaly. She otherwise treated Jon with respect and kindness and made him feel welcome and okay in his own skin.

Because that totally makes sense and is in line with what we all read.

Apparently, "common sense" isn't so common ... especially on these forums. I forget that all too often.

Kittyhat defending Jon!!!! :shocked: Rubbing my eyes to verify I read corectly LOL

About Jon and Catelyn, her words were harsh but she was grieving so a part of me can understand this. However, I feel she did more than simply ignoring Jon. I wouldn't go that far to say is emotional abuse but we see instances in the text where Jon remembers Catelyn looking at him in a way that made him feel less or that during meals he felt as if she was grudging him every bite as a kid. This may not be the tyoe of emotional scars a Craster type may inflict but as a kid Jon felt them.

Out of her blunders the one I can't excuse her off is kidnapping Tyrion. Am not saying she single handle starting the war but it was an idiotic rash move nonetheless!

She arrested the son of one of the most powerful and definitely the richest man in the entire seven kingdoms. A man who has devouted his life to ensure the power and respect for his family; one whose ruthlessness in erradicating those that dare defied the power of Casterly Rock was even made into a freaking theme song! Not only this, but she did it while her husband and 2 of her daughters were in a position to be harmed by her actions, seeing that they were in King's Landing surrounded by Lannisters. It was just baffling.

As for Cat herself, while I don't hate her and pitied her in almost all her chapters I can't bring myself to like her. She comes off as as ver selfrighteous person and for me self righteousness is a very unattractive quality and Cat is as selfrighteous as they comne

[Lady Arwen]

What i am saying is that they way she treated him was inappropriate. I dont agree with it. I definitely think just being a bastard in general is tough enough in WESTEROS with out having to deal with a cold and distant "step mother". She was punishing jon, consciously i believed for ned's cheating and i feel that's wrong.

I don't disagree that Cat was inappropriate to treat him this way, but I also can't agree that he suffered particularly as a result of it. It seems like she was more indifferent to him than cruel (barring the "it should have been you" incident). He would have a much worse time if he was any other illegitimate child in Westeros, i.e. he would have been abandoned and left to fend for himself. Instead, he grew up in a castle as a (sort of) member of one of the most powerful families in the realm. It's true that Cat was displacing her anger about Ned's infidelity onto Jon, which isn't cool, but she is only human and I appreciate Martin for making her reaction realistic.

[Mulled Wino]

Well I adore Cat and personally, I don't care whether people like or her or not, as long as those reasons are actually based upon evidence in the text.

You are quite right about Catelyn. She has a hard time judging people she doesn't know, just like everyone else! :) But, once she has had some time to observe, she is very accurate. She knows that Tyrion is the cunning one, she knew not to trust Theon, she correctly judged correctly.

Mullen Wino - let us know when you find all these examples in the text where Cat was mean to Jon? I have a strong feeling we will be waiting here a very long time.

Tyrion is so cunning that she arrested based on the "evidence" that LF said he lost the dagger to Tyrion in a bet. A cunning man would not give a uniquie valyerian steel dagger to an assassin.

Additiinally, a cunning man who had a child hostage would not release her in the middle of a war, if the hostage he was trading for was delivered to him on a silver platter so his opponent could possibly use the child to form an alliance against you.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Cat fans will frequently rationalize her mistakes or simply refuse to admit that she ever made any.

Ahh no. Catelyn fans are pretty tired of strawman arguments which are made from pre-exisitng dislike of Catelyn Stark and a very flawed understanding of what happened in GoT. And it shows so often its pretty laughable how many people regurgitate the same nonsense.

See what just happened there?

[David Selig]

Tyrion is so cunning that she arrested based on the "evidence" that LF said he lost the dagger to Tyrion in a bet. A cunning man would not give a uniquie valyerian steel dagger to an assassin.

Additiinally, a cunning man who had a child hostage would not release her in the middle of a war, if the hostage he was trading for was delivered to him on a silver platter so his opponent could possibly use the child to form an alliance against you.

By your logic, a cunning man wouldn't threaten the king and the queen repeatedly and publicly yet Tyrion did it.

Where does the idea that smart men don't commit dumb and easy to solve crimes comes from, BTW? It happens all the time, life is not an Agatha Christie novel...

[Kittykatknits]

of course there should be no guilty feelings. punishing a child for the husband's mistake is very logical. i mean that happens a lot - even in modern times. cat is indeed being very real in her interactions here. and i'm really serious about that. many women do this everyday.

Why should a woman automatically love a child brought in to her home by a cheating husband? She has no obligation to at all. Just because a woman is a mother does not mean that she owes her love to all children, regardless of circumstances.

Also, Cat did not punish Jon. She didn't love him and remained distant but there was no punishment. If he need a mother figure, Cat was hardly the only female in all of WF. He was raised right along with the children. He was close to Arya and Robb, he had the same training in arms, the same education, he was able to wield Ice several times, he sat at the table with them. How, in an way, was this a punishment?

[Mulled Wino]

By your logic, a cunning man wouldn't threaten the king and the queen repeatedly and publicly yet Tyrion did it.

Where does the idea that smart men don't commit dumb and easy to solve crimes comes from, BTW? It happens all the time, life is not an Agatha Christie novel...

I certainly wouldn't trust a cunning individual to do something at the amount of risk Cat laid out for both of those moves. One was clearly likely to start a war over LF saying he lost a dagger in a bet and over speculation of her sister that the Lannisters were behind Jon Arryn's death.

I also wouldn't EVER EVER send a hostage to an opponent in the war without confirming exactly what I was getting in exchange. Why did she think Cersei or Tywin wouldn't intervene and she could trust Tyrion at his word? This isn't your average hostage exchane, and even your average hostage exchange would be confirmed by someone in power.

"Lannisters Lie" is a phrase I'm sure she is familiar with.

[Mulled Wino]

Stawman arguments like Catelyn taking Tyrion prisoner caused the war of the five kings or that it was her fault Robb bedded Jeyne Westerling. Both are not only ludicrous but shows a very poor understanding about what was going on between Got and SoS.

Gotcha, I just hadn't seen any of those in this thread.

Except by that one guy who is a joke.

[Mulled Wino]

I don't disagree that Cat was inappropriate to treat him this way, but I also can't agree that he suffered particularly as a result of it. It seems like she was more indifferent to him than cruel (barring the "it should have been you" incident). He would have a much worse time if he was any other illegitimate child in Westeros, i.e. he would have been abandoned and left to fend for himself. Instead, he grew up in a castle as a (sort of) member of one of the most powerful families in the realm. It's true that Cat was displacing her anger about Ned's infidelity onto Jon, which isn't cool, but she is only human and I appreciate Martin for making her reaction realistic.

its realistic alright and I can see it happenning for sure, but that doesn't make me like it any more.

[Mulled Wino]

Care to elaborate?

Good for them. But I find it quite ironic and somewhat hypocritical too.

why read novels with murders in them if one can't pick on a non-murderer? so we should auto-hate all those who fit the traditional villian role, gotcha

[butterbumps!]

I get where some of you are coming from in believing that any child should be loved and made welcome. I think that in an ideal world, every child would have a loving family and lots of affection from everyone in the household. I get that and agree that the situation between Cat and Jon is not an ideal one.

Honestly, I don't think that Cat's behavior and attitude toward Jon were remotely abusive, uncalled for or immature. She did not mistreat him, or deny him any chance to develop close relationships with his siblings or father. Jon was not neglected by any stretch of the imagination in terms of love from the rest of the household, nor in terms of comfort, education, training and mealtimes. She did not actively torment him pettily or otherwise. Her "mistreatment" of Jon is more in the negative- it's an absence of attention than anything else, as she does treat him civilly and decently.

So the argument for "mistreatment" seems to be that she did not shower him with love the way she does her own children. There's a huge gap between "mistreatment" and "treating Jon like her own" in my opinion, and in this circumstance, I see it more as a tragic situation than one in which blame is due on anyone (even Ned- he couldn't tell Cat for numerous reasons). Yes, it's sad when a child is not shown affection by both parents, but I think it strains credulity that Cat ought to have actively shown Jon love given the circumstance. If you put yourself in Cat's shoes, would you honestly wish to shower a child with love who is daily evidence of your lover's infidelity? I think it's a very tragic situation all around. I strongly doubt that there are too many among us who would be able to endure that kind of constant (and public, mind you) humiliation with Cat's aplomb, nevermind be able to actively take interest/ love such a reminder.

As an aside, as someone with a step mother that could teach Cersei a thing or two about villainy, my life would be much easier if she just let me be/ ignored me the way Cat does to Jon (and note: she doesn't even have the excuse of my being the product of adultery or anything like that, lol).

[Kittykatknits]

I get where some of you are coming from in believing that any child should be loved and made welcome. I think that in an ideal world, every child would have a loving family and lots of affection from everyone in the household. I get that and agree that the situation between Cat and Jon is not an ideal one.

Honestly, I don't think that Cat's behavior and attitude toward Jon were remotely abusive, uncalled for or immature. She did not mistreat him, or deny him any chance to develop close relationships with his siblings or father. Jon was not neglected by any stretch of the imagination in terms of love from the rest of the household, nor in terms of comfort, education, training and mealtimes. She did not actively torment him pettily or otherwise. Her "mistreatment" of Jon is more in the negative- it's an absence of attention than anything else, as she does treat him civilly and decently.

So the argument for "mistreatment" seems to be that she did not shower him with love the way she does her own children. There's a huge gap between "mistreatment" and "treating Jon like her own" in my opinion, and in this circumstance, I see it more as a tragic situation than one in which blame is due on anyone (even Ned- he couldn't tell Cat for numerous reasons). Yes, it's sad when a child is not shown affection by both parents, but I think it strains credulity that Cat ought to have actively shown Jon love given the circumstance. If you put yourself in Cat's shoes, would you honestly wish to shower a child with love who is daily evidence of your lover's infidelity? I think it's a very tragic situation all around. I strongly doubt that there are too many among us who would be able to endure that kind of constant (and public, mind you) humiliation with Cat's aplomb, nevermind be able to actively take interest/ love such a reminder.

As an aside, as someone with a step mother that could teach Cersei a thing or two about villainy, my life would be much easier if she just let me be/ ignored me the way Cat does to Jon (and note: she doesn't even have the excuse of my being the product of adultery or anything like that, lol).

I liked this but am commenting beause I think it is a very well-written and thoughtful response. Well stated.

[Fantôme]

If you put yourself in Cat's shoes, would you honestly wish to shower a child with love who is daily evidence of your lover's infidelity?

Just to say that she doesn't blame Ned for the act of cheating. She is hurt because of what she thinks it means about Ned's feelings for this other woman, and because of the humiliation due to bringing the child to their home but she definitely doesn't care that he was unfaithful:

"He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles."

[The-Spiders-Little-Bird]

Cat is every bit as impulsive, short-sighted and arbitrary as Cercei, the only reason people like her is because she married the "good guys" and because of all of the bad stuff that happened to them (being POV helps too).

[Mulled Wino]

When you said this: You're a mother right? You don't think kids know a lot more than what is directly spoken to them? You don't think they can sense tenseness and smell out issues in a home or how people really perceive them?

Indicating that Cat was in the wrong for not loving Jon. You assume she created issues because she does not love him. Because she did not abuse him, she avoided him, so the only way you can see that she created issues for him is for her failure to love him. Apart from that, there is nothing. She even compares him to Theon later, and she was not particularly mean to Theon, just didn't include him in the love she felt for her own children, and she was suspicious of him (as she was of Jon).

first off, i missed this post, I'm in newborn distraction land and on my cell half the time.

this is what I am saying, you never answered my question about if kids notice things like this. please answer it. i think they do and it affects them. This post ignores the whole "Wish it was you" thing. Now I know GRRM since has supposedly said that this was a 1 off comment. I never read or saw that and no one has posted it despite me asking about it.

Ah yes, the whole "but she is a mother she ought to love him"

Or father, whatever

. You do realise Cat had no choice on whether or not to accept Jon, right? He was forced into her home without her wanting him to be there. When she asked Ned about it, he intimidated her into silence. Over and over and over Cat's wishes were totally ignored or totally trampled, yet she is the one in the wrong?

Ned was wrong too for not telling Cat anything, but the kid is there. deal with it like an adult and don't resent a kid that had nothing to do with anything.....sorry you're having marriage problems.

The proof that was sent to her with so much secrecy from Lysa, then Littlefinger nicely framing Tyrion for the murder of Bran? You do realise to Cat, it was a clearcut case. Even so, she was trying to avoid Tyrion and let someone else deal with when Marillion gave her away at the Inn by calling attention to himself from Tyrion. At that point, she knew Tyrion had seen her and would figure out she'd been in KL in secret, meaning she had to act. Rereading AGOT really helps here.

That's not proof. "Lannisters" does not mean arrest Tyrion, would she arrested Daven Lannister (or whatever his name is) if he saw her at the inn. And how was she secretly in KL when Varys and LF both knew? If it was a clearcut case to Cat, then that's exactly why she made a horrible decision, because it was nowhere near a clearcut case. I did mention that I am about to reread the series, so perhaps I will be refresehed.

At the time, there were few good alternatives, which means Cat went.

c'mon. I already presented a better alternative. Ser Rodrik with no sideburns would be much less recognizable than cat Stark AND Ser rodrik

"Doesn't fly" is hardly a good retort. If you think they "don't fly" then post your rebuttals..

I had already done so in the hated character thread

Why should we read fantasy novels according to you? You clearly have a good answer.

certainly not to get bent out of shape over murders as was insinuated

[King of Grumpkins]

I'm not a Cat fan, but I understand some of her motivations. My wife would trade an entire country for 1 of our kids without thinking twice. I think this is just a normal reaction from mothers. For guys it's a little different. How can you ask someone else to sacrifice their family members if you're not willing to do the same?

I agree completely on the parenting aspect. I would give anything to get one of my kids back as well, but plain and simple she was showing no respect toward her own son, who, lets not forget, was the freakin KING OF THE NORTH!!! She had no authority to make decisions in regards to prisoner exchanges. period.

In that single act she underminded her king, allowed perhaps the greatest figher in westeros go, and gave a gigantic "f-you" style middle finger to many of her kings bannermen.

[Lyanna Stark]

When i get on a computer, not a phone I can requote if you need it.

I am not the only one thinking you haven't really backed up anything with textual evidence here.

So far, the Cat dislike is mostly based around her being mean to Jon and her "strategic mistakes" plus the fact that she is not a happy person in her chapters.

To make it easier for you when you come back to a computer to get the quoting and everything in order, the basic statements in Cat's favour would go something like:

1. Cat had no reason to love Jon as he was a constant symbol of Ned's degradation of their marriage

2. However, Cat was cold and distant and not emotionally abusive. This is a bone of contention for a lot of people, where we are waiting for textual evidence of Cat's emotional abuse of Jon.

3. Cat lashing out at Jon was extraordinary and not her normal way of acting. This is supported in the text and by SSM, but again, if you have quotes showing the contrary, feel free to post them.

4. It is fairly well built in AGOT that Littlefinger is the one who started the Lannister vs Stark feud by getting Lysa to murder Jon Arryn and then pinning the blame on the Lannisters, followed by the murder attempt on Bran by Joffrey, which Littlefinger later pinned on Tyrion. Cat has, when she encounters Tyrion, two good reasons to severely suspect the Lannisters in general and Tyrion in particular for two murders. She cannot know that Cersei and Tyrion are not working together. As readers we know, but Cat does not.