Jon Snow marries Daenerys Targareyen

[Florina Laufeyson]

The wildlings dont defy Jon's gods. (quite the opposite actually)

Why is it necessary for Dany and Jon to get into bed at all?

[Dr. Pepper]

I think I posted in this thread before because there is a little star next to it, but I don't feel like rereading to see what I previously wrote. Chances are, I was adamantly opposed to a union between Jon and Dany. Anything that could create a ship called Jonerys was repulsive to me because that's a stupid name.

But I've thought more on it and I think it would be beneficial. GRRM has spent so much time deconstructing and subverting tropes. Why stop now? Dany is a subverted deconstruction of the beautiful lost princess trope. On the surface it seems she don't need no knight in shining armor. But really, if we follow the subversion, she does! Only Jon is suitable to rescue the poor princess queen and thus, they must marry and have sex and lots of babies. Because that makes absolute sense. No trope is more subverted than a Xena princess with dragons needing a penis to aid her cause. I don't know why I never saw this before, but I'm thankful that the leading Jonerys researchers have shown me the light.

[BeWareOfMyHouse]

I see Daenerys as more of an Elizabethian-esque type of queen, if she ever does make it to the Iron Throne. It's very heavily implied that she's infertile, and I'm not sure what type of magic could ever restore her fertility, or if any wielders of such magic even exist.

My personal prediction is that Dany is going to die before the series is done. It'd just be a totally anti-climactic ending for her to finally "win" the Game of Thrones, only to be doomed to be the last Targaryen to sit in King's Landing.

Even though Jon is Rhaegar's son, I'm a firm believer in the Great Northern Conspiracy. I think he'll reject the Iron Throne, if and when Howland Reed finally reveals Jon's parentage, and instead accept his duty as the King of Winter.

[cade]

There seem to be two forms of opposition against this ship:

1. It's too cliche/obvious.
   
   
2. It's bad because it may be incestuous.
   

... Does anyone else see the incompatibility of these two criticisms? If a large portion of readers (or even just other characters within the universe) have a problem with the incestuous nature of the relationship, how can it be "too cliche"?

"too cliche" has itself become an extremely cliched saying that is trotted out probably millions of times each day across the internet to criticize any form of storytelling that someone doesn't like. Same for "too predictable." The best example here is how many say it's too cliche or predictable for Dany to win the IT, be the PTWP or even fight the Others at all, but not for Jon to be and do all of that. I usually stop reading when I come across posts that rest on the "too cliche/predictable" arguments, especially since they have such limited frames of reference. By the standards that people are now applying, there's virtually no originality anymore, and that includes these books.

[butterbumps!]

There seem to be two forms of opposition against this ship:

1. It's too cliche/obvious.
   
   
2. It's bad because it may be incestuous.
   

... Does anyone else see the incompatibility of these two criticisms? If a large portion of readers (or even just other characters within the universe) have a problem with the incestuous nature of the relationship, how can it be "too cliche"?

I guess those are the most flagrant criticisms. But those aren't actually my problem with the pairing.

I've yet to see any real evidence and true suggestion to support the pairing (which I think was my position a year ago in this very thread).

Most cited are the HotU prophesy (the blue rose) and the dream of the guy with a cold dick. I'll also add Dany's last chapter in which she sleeps under that wall of ants and liken it to the Wall as suggestion she will end up at the Wall in some capacity at some point.

My problems with this theory stem from the gross lack of textual support. For one thing, it would seem that the "bride of fire" sequence, so often cited in relation to "husbands" falls apart. Unless Jizrag the Lorax shows up on the prow of a ship, smiling sadly, then we can deduce that "husbands" are not the referent of "bride of fire." Looking at Dany's character progression, it strikes me as more likely that "bride of fire" has nothing to do with men, but rather events that tie Dany even closer to fire. That horse by the darkling stream, so often assumed to refer to Drogo, seems more likely a reference to Dany herself, and of the Pyre scene specifically. She specifically thinks of the Pyre scene as a "wedding," and it would make sense that a symbol of Dany (the silver) becoming a "bride of fire." This completely reframes the interpretation of her relationship to the next two (corpse on the prow, blue flower).

The cold dick dream as a symbol of Jon is also a stretch to me, though admittedly, not impossible. More likely, though, we see her in a loveless marriage (cold) to Jizrag, and given the way she feels about him, this dream seems like a manifestation of her mindset, unhappy with her loveless marriage, unsatisfied with all her concessions to him. If not Hiz the Jiz, Euron strikes me as the next likeliest candidate.

The symbol of the Wall suggests to me that Dany and Jon will meet. This, in itself, doesn't indicate whether it will be a friendly alliance or a conflict. I don't believe this can really stand as evidence for a Jon-Dany marriage/ sex/ love/ one night stand in any way.

Though I think they'd initially meet as foes, I suspect that they may end up coming to some sort of accord-- platonically-- as "family." Not incestuous family, that is, but finding personal resolution in their shared inner struggles with the notion of family makes sense to me. Jon, who never knew his biological family, and Dany who never really had family either. I think this is what both of their arcs evince in terms of some sort of ultimate resolution.

[bbstark]

But I've thought more on it and I think it would be beneficial. GRRM has spent so much time deconstructing and subverting tropes. Why stop now? Dany is a subverted deconstruction of the beautiful lost princess trope. On the surface it seems she don't need no knight in shining armor. But really, if we follow the subversion, she does! Only Jon is suitable to rescue the poor princess queen and thus, they must marry and have sex and lots of babies. Because that makes absolute sense. No trope is more subverted than a Xena princess with dragons needing a penis to aid her cause. I don't know why I never saw this before, but I'm thankful that the leading Jonerys researchers have shown me the light.

so so true, omg i can't wait for this to happen! This is the most beautiful, amazing love story yet to come. And I'll bet Viserion and Ghost will totally get along too.

It's such a beautifully deconstructed story, that I'm sure it's inevitable. Oh and the babies! I can't wait !

butterbumps, don't ruin this!

[Et-In-Arcadia-Ego]

"too cliche" has itself become an extremely cliched saying that is trotted out probably millions of times each day across the internet to criticize any form of storytelling that someone doesn't like. Same for "too predictable." The best example here is how many say it's too cliche or predictable for Dany to win the IT, be the PTWP or even fight the Others at all, but not for Jon to be and do all of that. I usually stop reading when I come across posts that rest on the "too cliche/predictable" arguments, especially since they have such limited frames of reference. By the standards that people are now applying, there's virtually no originality anymore, and that includes these books.

There is an assumption among some members that a Jon and Dany relationship will turn our beloved ASOIF into a Nicholas Sparks yarn. I trust GRRM. He got us this far. If he puts Dany and Jon together it will interesting and hardly cliche.

[butterbumps!]

so so true, omg i can't wait for this to happen! This is the most beautiful, amazing love story yet to come. And I'll bet Viserion and Ghost will totally get along too.

oh yea, sounds super awesome. Of course Tyrion, who will serve as Jon and Dany's noble Hand and probably save the day, will design a special saddle for Ghost, so the wolf and the dragon can fly to the ice cream parlor for dates.

It's such a beautifully deconstructed story, that I'm sure it's inevitable. Oh and the babies! I can't wait !

butterbumps, don't ruin this!

I think that "Tywin is Gay" thread might be more suited to your..."abilities." :cool4:

[TheMysteriousOne]

<excellent post>

My question is unrelated to this topic, but do you think that Dany is going to die or survive the series?

[Dr. Pepper]

oh yea, sounds super awesome. Of course Tyrion, who will serve as Jon and Dany's noble Hand and probably save the day, will design a special saddle for Ghost, so the wolf and the dragon can fly to the ice cream parlor for dates.

I think that "Tywin is Gay" thread might be more suited to your..."abilities." :cool4:

Sigh. There are no ice cream parlors in Westeros, bumps. Plus, dragons don't like the cold. I doubt Viserion would even be able to fly if he were up north where ice cream existed, or if he were forced to transport ice cream to the south. Chances are, the special 'saddle' would be for Ghost to transport Viserion.

[UVA]

Jizrag the Lorax

Hiz the Jiz

I wonder if Martin is doing something deliberate with Hiz's name because it conjures up jiz every.time.I.read.it. and now you do this.

And I'll bet Viserion and Ghost will totally get along too.

I don't have anything substantial to add to your comments bbstark but the Viserion-Ghost relationship reminds me of the Barbie-of-the-week videos that my daughters like so much; where a sparkly purple dragon (her name is Penelope), who is initially antagonistic towards the prince du jour's equally sparkly, magical puffball, ultimately connect in a musical encore.

[bbstark]

oh yea, sounds super awesome. Of course Tyrion, who will serve as Jon and Dany's noble Hand and probably save the day, will design a special saddle for Ghost, so the wolf and the dragon can fly to the ice cream parlor for dates.

I think that "Tywin is Gay" thread might be more suited to your..."abilities." :cool4:

It is true, I have pushed the envelope in the "Tywin is Gay" thread (thanks, it's always nice to meet a fan)

anyways, I think you fail to see the deeper implications of inter-species cuteness in this scenario.

Sigh. There are no ice cream parlors in Westeros, bumps. Plus, dragons don't like the cold. I doubt Viserion would even be able to fly if he were up north where ice cream existed, or if he were forced to transport ice cream to the south. Chances are, the special 'saddle' would be for Ghost to transport Viserion.

I want in on the ice-cream business. That's all

[Florina Laufeyson]

but not for Jon to be and do all of that.

You are obviously new here. The sheer amount of "that be cliche, brah" lobbed at Jon is mindboggling.

I'll also add Dany's last chapter in which she sleeps under that wall of ants and liken it to the Wall as suggestion she will end up at the Wall in some capacity at some point.

In which said ants drove Dany away...

:rofl:

[Ser Luke.]

Nooooo!!!!

In all seriousness, this is one of those theories I just CANNOT see happening.

[Illusion]

Westeros needs all the help it can get to fight the Others. We know the Targs were lesser (in Valyria) and we know the Starks 'bent the knee'. However, both Stark and Targ seem key to the future of Westeros. The Others are the enemy, I think Jon and Dany will 'save' Westeros, who survives in the aftermath I don't know. Seriously, who do we have to take control after the battle of the Others, it's a guessing game. Personally I have no problem with the dragonspawn Princess uniting with the Bastard of Stark. But who knows what GRRM has planned.

[Buckthorn]

He'll eventually kill her if they ever get hitched.

[cade]

You are obviously new here. The sheer amount of "that be cliche, brah" lobbed at Jon is mindboggling.

I know that people say it of Jon too, but you cut out the part where I specified that I was referring to the many who lob the "too cliche/obvious" arguments at Dany and then argue that Jon is the PTWP who will lead the defeat of the Others and win the IT. I've read thousands of posts here and from what I've seen, the "too cliche/obvious" arguments often strike me as wishful thinking from all sides.

[Nausicaä]

I have nothing constructive to add to the thread except that cream-and-gold-colored Viserion is a totally wrong suggestion for Jon's dragon and him and Ghost DON'T BLOODY COLOR MATCH. If you've ever (seriously) thought that Viserion should be Jon's dragon because Ghost has white fur and Viserion is "white", I'm here to tell you that cream and ivory =/= white and that that color combination is bad and you should feel bad.

Carry on.

[Whitering]

I see Daenerys as more of an Elizabethian-esque type of queen, if she ever does make it to the Iron Throne. It's very heavily implied that she's infertile, and I'm not sure what type of magic could ever restore her fertility, or if any wielders of such magic even exist.

I love that people consider it heavily implied that she's infertile when the only source of that information is one of Dany's enemies, meanwhile we have some textual evidence to suggest that she maybe just had a miscarriage.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

You are obviously new here. The sheer amount of "that be cliche, brah" lobbed at Jon is mindboggling.

I'm of a mind that there is entirely too much concern over the dreaded cliché in art criticism in general. Most everything has been done before, it's a matter of presenting it well and with creative wrinkles that make those who experience it forget it's the same old story retold.