Jon Snow marries Daenerys Targareyen

[butterbumps!]

My question is unrelated to this topic, but do you think that Dany is going to die or survive the series?

Thanks MO. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. What I'd most like (in terms of foreshadowing/ character development I've found) is for Dany's "mount to Dread" turn out to be Drogon, bringing her to Westeros, and her "mount to love" to be ships, taking her and her people back to Essos, forming a khalasar committed to ending the slave industry from the root (I'm being grossly simplistic, but I'm happy to expand). This would also pair with Martin's comparison to Nymeria.

I could also see her "mount to love" turn out to be some sort of sacrifice, or either herself or a dragon. I think there's a chance she might be heading toward an "ultimate sacrifice," as I think she "burns" bright and hot, but fast. I could see her "flame" going out, if that makes sense, based on the broad strokes of her arc's having much to do with chaos, upheaval and change. I see her as more of a catalyst than a stabilizer, so I think something like this may fit.

There was a poster, I think Faint, who suggested that there's a possibility she might die in childbirth (which would tie in to what Mirri says about being able to carry children, i.e. she'd conceive, but die and be "reunited" with Drogo). He'd suggested that this is what's meant by the blue rose growing. I don't want to dismiss this entirely, because it does have a literary logic to it, only, it seems to me that the blue rose and the other "bride of fire" symbols mean something other love or marriage in my view. So I can see this argument, though, I don't believe the father must be Jon in order for this to make sense.

One thing I don't believe is that Dany will be sitting the IT at the end. I feel more confident about this than any other theory about Dany's fate.

Sigh. There are no ice cream parlors in Westeros, bumps. Plus, dragons don't like the cold. I doubt Viserion would even be able to fly if he were up north where ice cream existed, or if he were forced to transport ice cream to the south. Chances are, the special 'saddle' would be for Ghost to transport Viserion.

And does Viserion change his gender to female in this blessed theory, or is this another to add to the annals of Nedbert? Also, don't be obtuse. We had a lengthy discussion about the fact that Other dung = iced cream. For all we know, a chastened LF will attempt to try his hand at honest work and open a chain of Mr. Tastees in the south. He'll dress up the White Walkers he employs in cute little uniforms to distribute the goods on unicorn back.

Also, you're a bad influence on me and I should really put you on ignore.

[Nausicaä]

I love that people consider it heavily implied that she's infertile when the only source of that information is one of Dany's enemies, meanwhile we have some textual evidence to suggest that she maybe just had a miscarriage.

Majority of readers took it to mean that Dany can't carry a living child to term, not that she infertile in the sense that she can't conceive.

[Whitering]

Majority of readers took it to mean that Dany can't carry a living child to term, not that she infertile in the sense that she can't conceive.

We have no evidence of that either, we don't know what would have happened had she stayed in Mereen. It was very early in the pregnancy because nobody had noticed yet, and then she went several days with no food or water, then dodgy food sources. I am no medical expert, but that sounds like a decent recipe for a miscarriage.

[Newstar]

I think there's a chance she might be heading toward an "ultimate sacrifice," as I think she "burns" bright and hot, but fast. I could see her "flame" going out, if that makes sense, based on the broad strokes of her arc's having much to do with chaos, upheaval and change. I see her as more of a catalyst than a stabilizer, so I think something like this may fit.

Funny, this sounds a lot like a description of what happened to Robb: burned bright and hot (early military success), flame went out, acted as more of a catalyst than a stabilizer.

One thing I don't believe is that Dany will be sitting the IT at the end. I feel more confident about this than any other theory about Dany's fate.

I agree with you and all, but does anyone think Dany will be sitting the IT at the end?

There was a poster, I think Faint, who suggested that there's a possibility she might die in childbirth (which would tie in to what Mirri says about being able to carry children, i.e. she'd conceive, but die and be "reunited" with Drogo).

That was my take on it. It also disposes of Dany, as harsh as that sounds, clearing the way for whoever (if anyone) is really going to run things at the end of ADOS.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I know that people say it of Jon too, but you cut out the part where I specified that I was referring to the many who lob the "too cliche/obvious" arguments at Dany and then argue that Jon is the PTWP who will lead the defeat of the Others and win the IT. I've read thousands of posts here and from what I've seen, the "too cliche/obvious" arguments often strike me as wishful thinking from all sides.

I actually argue that Dany is AAR and that this can transpire in very different manner than what people expect. I usually posit that Dany is indeed, AAR, but that AAR isnt exactly the greatest guy in the world. Many who argue in favor of Jon actually dont want him anywhere near the Iron Throne. (or that if he does end up with it, it wont be a cause for celebration due to a broken and burned realm among other things.)

Most everything has been done before, it's a matter of presenting it well and with creative wrinkles that make those who experience it forget it's the same old story retold.

Theres something about Jon/Dany that feels like that even a master like GRRM cant present to us in a really brilliant manner. :dunno: That or the amount of flaming hoop jumping he'd have to do in order to make it not seem like glurgy, contrived nonsense makes me really wonder if its possible. Given his statement of "bittersweet" ending, i feel that GRRM isnt gonna go this route with the two characters. Even if they "get together but end up in a tragic situation" like Dany dying in childbirth or Jon taking a fatal blow during the battle with the Others after they got together, it still doesnt seem right. Theres something that feels truly "off" about the idea of Jon/Dany from the literary philosophy of GRRM's work.

[Dr. Pepper]

I have nothing constructive to add to the thread except that cream-and-gold-colored Viserion is a totally wrong suggestion for Jon's dragon and him and Ghost DON'T BLOODY COLOR MATCH. If you've ever (seriously) thought that Viserion should be Jon's dragon because Ghost has white fur and Viserion is "white", I'm here to tell you that cream and ivory =/= white and that that color combination is bad and you should feel bad.

Carry on.

Oh snap, I didn't even think about that. Obviously black goes best with white, so that's even more evidence taht Dany and Jon will end up Jonerys since their pets will end up Drogost.

And does Viserion change his gender to female in this blessed theory, or is this another to add to the annals of Nedbert? Also, don't be obtuse. We had a lengthy discussion about the fact that Other dung = iced cream. For all we know, a chastened LF will attempt to try his hand at honest work and open a chain of Mr. Tastees in the south. He'll dress up the White Walkers he employs in cute little uniforms to distribute the goods on unicorn back.

Also, you're a bad influence on me and I should really put you on ignore.

Why does Viserion need to change genders for this theory? What's the problem with a male or female dragon being transported by a male direwolf?

I know that Other shit is ice cream. The point is that dragons can't deal with that sort of weather. Viserion (or any dragon) would needed to be transported since the cold or the rain knocks them on their ass. (Honestly, I'm concerned that this sort of weather is like an addictive drug to them so it's probably best to stay away).

I agree that LF would probably try to start an ice cream empire. He's just the sort who would create an obesity epidemic.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

Theres something about Jon/Dany that feels like that even a master like GRRM cant present to us in a really brilliant manner. :dunno: That or the amount of flaming hoop jumping he'd have to do in order to make it not seem like glurgy, contrived nonsense makes me really wonder if its possible. Given his statement of "bittersweet" ending, i feel that GRRM isnt gonna go this route with the two characters. Even if they "get together but end up in a tragic situation" like Dany dying in childbirth or Jon taking a fatal blow during the battle with the Others after they got together, it still doesnt seem right. Theres something that feels truly "off" about the idea of Jon/Dany from the literary philosophy of GRRM's work.

I agree and I don't see it happening at all. Feels very off from the way the story's progressing. Just saying that a cliche is almost an inevitability in a good story and it's not a bad thing by necessity.

[Newstar]

Theres something about Jon/Dany that feels like that even a master like GRRM cant present to us in a really brilliant manner. :dunno: That or the amount of flaming hoop jumping he'd have to do in order to make it not seem like glurgy, contrived nonsense makes me really wonder if its possible. (...) Theres something that feels truly "off" about the idea of Jon/Dany from the literary philosophy of GRRM's work.

Oh, sweet summer child.

Spoilers for another GRRM work:

"Glurgy, contrived nonsense" is how I'd described the ending to Armageddon Rag. Super, super corny. Big Chill crap, I kid you not. It made me seriously reevaluate my opinion of GRRM as a writer.

Given his statement of "bittersweet" ending, i feel that GRRM isnt gonna go this route with the two characters. Even if they "get together but end up in a tragic situation" like Dany dying in childbirth or Jon taking a fatal blow during the battle with the Others after they got together, it still doesnt seem right.

Right? I dunno. It does seem bittersweet by any measure. Dany falls in love with Jon, marries for love (for once), gets pregnant (yay!), survives the final battle, wins the game of thrones, and then...dies in childbirth, but gives birth to a living child and is reunited with Khal Drogo. Ditto for the (somewhat less likely, in my opinion) situation where there's no pregnancy but Jon dies in battle. You meet someone, you fall in love, you get to marry the person you love (how rare is that in Westeros?), and then they're almost immediately taken from you forever. Also bittersweet.

It also seems to be one of GRRM's rules in ASOIAF that no one is allowed to be happily in love for any length of time in-series. If Jon and Dany do fall in love and tie the knot, at least one of them's getting dead real soon. (Ditto for Jon and Val, I might add.)

[Florina Laufeyson]

Oh, sweet summer child.

Spoilers for another GRRM work:

"Glurgy, contrived nonsense" is how I'd described the ending to Armageddon Rag. Super, super corny. Big Chill crap, I kid you not. It made me seriously reevaluate my opinion of GRRM as a writer.

Right? I dunno. It does seem bittersweet by any measure. Dany falls in love with Jon, marries for love (for once), gets pregnant (yay!), survives the final battle, wins the game of thrones, and then...dies in childbirth, but gives birth to a living child and is reunited with Khal Drogo. Ditto for the (somewhat less likely, in my opinion) situation where there's no pregnancy but Jon dies in battle. You meet someone, you fall in love, you get to marry the person you love (how rare is that in Westeros?), and then they're almost immediately taken from you forever. Also bittersweet.

It also seems to be one of GRRM's rules in ASOIAF that no one is allowed to be happily in love for any length of time. If Jon and Dany do fall in love and tie the knot, at least one of them's getting dead real soon.

Even cornier than the end of Harry Potter?

Say that scenario plays out somehow, (bleh) i suppose you could fit it in with Dany's final betrayal for love. Im covered in ham and cheese. Make it stop. :P

[Nausicaä]

Oh snap, I didn't even think about that. Obviously black goes best with white, so that's even more evidence taht Dany and Jon will end up Jonerys since their pets will end up Drogost.

Jon already has the perfect B&W pet combo.

We have no evidence of that either, we don't know what would have happened had she stayed in Mereen. It was very early in the pregnancy because nobody had noticed yet, and then she went several days with no food or water, then dodgy food sources. I am no medical expert, but that sounds like a decent recipe for a miscarriage.

I should have taken more time with that post's wording, but what I meant is not that she can't carry a child to term (because of her physique - I think it's pretty much accepted that she had the miscarriage in ADWD because of the circumstances and the berries in particular), but that she won't (or can't because of the way the story is written) unless she dies in childbirth and sees Drogo again at the end of the books.

[butterbumps!]

I agree with you and all, but does anyone think Dany will be sitting the IT at the end?

lol, I think so. Some of the rationale behind Jon + Dany is to form a political marriage to unite North + South (so that Dany would in effect be queen of Westeros). I haven't gotten too involved in Dany threads in recent months, but I do remember there was support for the idea that she'd be queen (and/ or be the "Aegon" to two husbands ruling with her). I just don't see that given the way her arc has so much to do with chaos and being an agent of change, that I really see her playing a critical catalyst role rather than someone administrating (so I completely agree with your second point).

Why does Viserion need to change genders for this theory? What's the problem with a male or female dragon being transported by a male direwolf?

the other poster was clearly implying that Ghost and Viserion would be lovers. I was just trying to figure out if you were leaning toward another gay conspiracy with this. Obviously, there's no problem whatsoever wrt a wolf transporting a dragon on its back.

I know that Other shit is ice cream. The point is that dragons can't deal with that sort of weather. Viserion (or any dragon) would needed to be transported since the cold or the rain knocks them on their ass. (Honestly, I'm concerned that this sort of weather is like an addictive drug to them so it's probably best to stay away).

Are you thinking like how Dorothy and the Lion shoot up via osmosis in that poppy field? That's possible. I think you should perhaps start a thread on the drug use of dragons, as I feel this deserves some sort of public awareness campaign (what kind of message are junkie dragons sending to kids?) I think this could be even more confirmation of a Dany-Euron romantic pairing, given that Euron's "chasing the dragon" in more ways than one. Add a strung out dragon to the mix, and pretty soon you'll get a Wilfred spin off series. I wonder if Drogon would take up smoking for the role?

[The Idiots Lantern]

Dany falls in love with Jon, marries for love (for once), gets pregnant (yay!), survives the final battle, wins the game of thrones, and then...dies in childbirth, but gives birth to a living child and is reunited with Khal Drogo.

Eh, I'm not sure being "reunited" with your dead husband after you've actually healed enough to have moved on and fallen in love with someone else is really that sweet.

It also seems to be one of GRRM's rules that no one is allowed to be happily in love for any length of time. If Jon and Dany do fall in love and tie the knot, at least one of them's getting dead real soon.

Same with Jon and Val, I imagine.

[BeWareOfMyHouse]

Even cornier than the end of Harry Potter?

Say that scenario plays out somehow, (bleh) i suppose you could fit it in with Dany's final betrayal for love. Im covered in ham and cheese. Make it stop. :P

To be fair, even most HP fans hate the epilogue of Harry Potter with a burning passion.

[callmedodge]

I don`t understand how or why this is such a popular theory. Everything we`ve learned of Dany and Jon so far suggest that they will not get along, in the slightest. I seriously wonder if I`ve read the same books as some posters sometimes.

[The Idiots Lantern]

To be fair, even most HP fans hate the epilogue of Harry Potter with a burning passion.

I don't know why. We check in years later and see how everyone fared. They fought for this future.

I guarentee you, whatever George does, someone will call it hammy and crappy.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

To be fair, even most HP fans hate the epilogue of Harry Potter with a burning passion.

What's so bad about it? Then again, I lost interest in Harry Potter before the epilogue so maybe I didn't care enough anymore.

I don't know why. We check in years later and see how everyone fared. They fought for this future.

I guarentee you, whatever George does, someone will call it hammy and crappy.

I hope he does something similar, tbh. It's a story, I want an ending not some silly commentary.

[Newstar]

Even cornier than the end of Harry Potter?

In ASOS, Sansa planned on naming her kids after her dead relatives, and isn't that pretty much what several Harry Potter characters wound up doing in the epilogue? It's, like, wall to wall characters named after their parents' dead relatives. I'm just saying. If you think GRRM is above cheeseball endgame shenanigans a la Harry Potter epilogue you are so, so wrong. "Bittersweet" and "corny" are not mutually exclusive, unfortunately.

Same with Jon and Val, I imagine.

Oh, yeah.

[BeWareOfMyHouse]

I don`t understand how or why this is such a popular theory. Everything we`ve learned of Dany and Jon so far suggest that they will not get along, in the slightest. I seriously wonder if I`ve read the same books as some posters sometimes.

My thoughts exactly. Besides, Dany still has her boy-toy, Daario. And if Daario dies, will she "get over" him in time to stoke up a genuine relationship with her own nephew?

It's beginning to sound almost as Unlikely as Aegon V.

[BeWareOfMyHouse]

In ASOS, Sansa planned on naming her kids after her dead relatives, and isn't that pretty much what several Harry Potter characters wound up doing in the epilogue? It's, like, wall to wall characters named after their parents' dead relatives. I'm just saying.

The reason people criticized the HP epilogue was because it sounded far too fairy-tale. And, of course, Sansa (at least through the start of ACoK) has a fairy-tale view of the world.

ETA: Double postage, ugh.

[binga]

George doesn't have enough space left for them to have a conversation let alone a romance.