Is Stannis sane?

[David Selig]

The last line is simply, a lie. Did you disregard the entire last paragraph of my post where I mention all his accomplishments? He divided his forces and pincered the great Victarion Greyjoy at Fair Isle, summarily destroying the Iron Fleet. How is that notta coherent plan or strategy? You're seeing what you wanna see dude.

Who is this "great Victarion Greatjoy" you speak of? The only one with this name in ASOIF is a moron who can be outsmarted by pretty much anyone.

[Fat Mac]

If he told Robert in a private conversation, even he might have been forced to wake up and smell the coffee. He could have tried telling it to other people who saw the kids daily. if he had planted some seeds it would have been much easier to dispute Joffrey's legitimacy later on. He told one person and when that person died, he ran.

If Stannis told others about the incest, he and his family could be in serious risk. You also don't seem to understand the level of dislike he and Robert had for each other. Robert insulted Stannis at every turn. He told Stannis to hold Storm's End. Stannis starved in order to hold it. Afterwards he gave it to Renly, and thanked Ned Stark for lifting the siege rather than Stannis for holding it. He told Stannis to take Dragonstone, which he did. Afterwards he blamed him for the escape of the Targaryens, who had escaped long before Stannis got there. He married Stannis to an ugly second daughter of a vassal house, and deflowered the bride's cousin in the couples bed. Not to mention, the Baratheons are stubborn. They will not listen to reason in most cases, especially Robert. Robert listened to two people: Jon Arryn and Ned. Jon Arryn was dead, Stannis thought by the Lannisters, and he had to get out. There is absolutely and positively no way Robert would listen to Stannis when Stannis had everything to gain and Robert had nothing.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Who is this "great Victarion Greatjoy" you speak of? The only one with this name in ASOIF is a moron who can be outsmarted by pretty much anyone.

To be fair when I said great I s'pose I should have put italics in there or something, I meant great to denote sarcasm, which certainly undermines my point. But Victarion nonetheless is reknowned(fair or not) for his prowess in nautical warfare.

[David Selig]

To be fair when I said great I s'pose I should have put italics in there or something, I meant great to denote sarcasm, which certainly undermines my point. But Victarion nonetheless is reknowned(fair or not) for his prowess in nautical warfare.

No problem, I was kidding mostly. Maybe strategy is the one area in which Victarion isn't completely dumb, though he still seem to be a bit lacking in this too, his only notable victory at Lannisport was planned by Euron IIRC.

[StannisBamfatheon]

No problem, I was kidding mostly. Maybe strategy is the one area in which Victarion isn't completely dumb, though he still seem to be a bit lacking in this too, his only notable victory at Lannisport was planned by Euron IIRC.

Vic is quite the dummy(I'm gonna sail the Dothraki sea!!! yeah!!) And I dunno about you but I'm a pretty big Ironborn hater and I was noting in another thread that they really don't have any great victories to speak of. Balon's Rebellion was crushed summarily at Fair Isle, Seagard, Pyke, Old Wyk, etc... And yeah there was the burning of the Lannisport fleet(carried about by Victarion, planned by Euron) but I consider that more of a raid then anything notta battle proper.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I find myself wondering where these conclusions regarding Stannis's supposed competence comes from. To me he seems barely functional.

His actions during the books:

After Jon Arryn's murder, despite having vital information that can seriously undermine if not outright destroy his political rivals, he retreats to Dragonstone and does nothing. He proceeds in his selected course of action until he sends that ridiculus letter. His next action after all hell has broken loose and to which he has failed to react, including a good opportunity to attack King's Landing, is to attack a castle he has no hope of taking, risking retaliation he cannot hope to survive, for no tangible strategic benefit, because someone told him in of what she saw in the fires. That someone being a seer of a religion he does not believe in.

After all that plays out, remarkably to his benefit, he loses time to gain aforementioned castle again with no tangible benefit in sight. As we are going to see later that delay cost him dearly. Enter another shadowbaby. The castle falls. Davos has managed to piece out what had happened with Renly. Stannis, still manages to delude himself.

Come the Blackwater. He fails to anticipate or counter the obstacles thrown in his way. Most importantly he fails to bring along what has proved his most valuable asset: Melissandre.

After the Blackwater he retreats back to Dragonstone. He broods. After a long time of pondering sacrificing his nephew he is finally shamed into action by Davos. Politically this is a long shot. He has no ties to the region and so far all he has managed is to make himself even less relevant.

There he fails to coax what he wanted from the Night's Watch and is convinced on marching to a deathtrap, until Jon buys him off with an offer of tripling his army. Remarkably he manages to accomplish something by following someone else's plan.

Then we come to the march on Winterfell. Jon thinks to himself that he should march at once or not at all. I think the logic in this is obvious. If he could get to it while it was unoccupied it would have been a great asset to him. Once it's manned he has no hope of taking it. Predictably, Stannis does neither, is forced into marching by the two thirds of his army, he delays and finds himself stranded and starving, which might be the thing that has kept him alive, so far. Again he finds himself a tower to brood in.

The pattern I see from this, is brooding broken by irrationa,l spasmodic actions with incosistent motivations, in each and every case prompted by third parties.

You dislike Stannis, but the points you use to disrespect my king are unfounded. You are not open to discuss the subject, so why ask the question?

[Associate Maester]

I find myself wondering where these conclusions regarding Stannis's supposed competence comes from. To me he seems barely functional.

His actions during the books:

After Jon Arryn's murder, despite having vital information that can seriously undermine if not outright destroy his political rivals, he retreats to Dragonstone and does nothing. He proceeds in his selected course of action until he sends that ridiculus letter. His next action after all hell has broken loose and to which he has failed to react, including a good opportunity to attack King's Landing, is to attack a castle he has no hope of taking, risking retaliation he cannot hope to survive, for no tangible strategic benefit, because someone told him in of what she saw in the fires. That someone being a seer of a religion he does not believe in.

After all that plays out, remarkably to his benefit, he loses time to gain aforementioned castle again with no tangible benefit in sight. As we are going to see later that delay cost him dearly. Enter another shadowbaby. The castle falls. Davos has managed to piece out what had happened with Renly. Stannis, still manages to delude himself.

Come the Blackwater. He fails to anticipate or counter the obstacles thrown in his way. Most importantly he fails to bring along what has proved his most valuable asset: Melissandre.

After the Blackwater he retreats back to Dragonstone. He broods. After a long time of pondering sacrificing his nephew he is finally shamed into action by Davos. Politically this is a long shot. He has no ties to the region and so far all he has managed is to make himself even less relevant.

There he fails to coax what he wanted from the Night's Watch and is convinced on marching to a deathtrap, until Jon buys him off with an offer of tripling his army. Remarkably he manages to accomplish something by following someone else's plan.

Then we come to the march on Winterfell. Jon thinks to himself that he should march at once or not at all. I think the logic in this is obvious. If he could get to it while it was unoccupied it would have been a great asset to him. Once it's manned he has no hope of taking it. Predictably, Stannis does neither, is forced into marching by the two thirds of his army, he delays and finds himself stranded and starving, which might be the thing that has kept him alive, so far. Again he finds himself a tower to brood in.

The pattern I see from this, is brooding broken by irrationa,l spasmodic actions with incosistent motivations, in each and every case prompted by third parties.

First Point:

-- He went to Dragonstone to consolidate his power because hey not exactly a smart move hanging around KL given what happened to Arrayn. Robert may or may not have believed him (I'm thinking not). So it makes sense he retreats to his seat, closes off the waters around Dragonstone and sets about figuring stuff out.

-- He still had a pretty good shot of taking the Red Keep expect for Tywin and the Tyrells attacking. I believe 70k men. Tyrion employed some great counter measures as well.

-- He admits not bringing along Mel was not his smartest move. See his "Blame me" dialogue in Storm of Swords.

-- Yeah, he used shadow assassins. I don't fault him for that actually from a military POV (embracing unconventional warfare). It isn't honorable, but it was bloody effective.

-- So, what he took too long brooding over the moral and ethical implications of sacrificing his nephew and that is a sign of insanity? I'm assuming you would think he was mad if he'd decided it was for the greater good? (so he's crazy no matter what he does on this matter in your POV).

-- Yes, Davos tells him the "hard truth"...and he listens. I'd say that hardly qualifies as crazy\unstable. Especially given Stannis is...a tad cranky in that scene given the raised sword. Rather than cutting off his own Hand's head...Stannis listens and later admits yeah you know...had this whole thing backward I need to save the realm to win the crown.

-- As to the stranded\starving thing...clearly he should've checked the Westero's Weather Channel before heading out. I won't spoil anything for those that haven't read the online chapter.

-- Yes. Stannis broods. Last I checked that doesn't make him crazy or a chicken.

[Associate Maester]

Vic is quite the dummy(I'm gonna sail the Dothraki sea!!! yeah!!) And I dunno about you but I'm a pretty big Ironborn hater and I was noting in another thread that they really don't have any great victories to speak of. Balon's Rebellion was crushed summarily at Fair Isle, Seagard, Pyke, Old Wyk, etc... And yeah there was the burning of the Lannisport fleet(carried about by Victarion, planned by Euron) but I consider that more of a raid then anything notta battle proper.

I actually like Vic....I also wish someone would whack him upside the head with a clue stick.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Preview chapter!?!? Oh my drowned god I'm so behind in the news. Link pls! :love:

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

I read this chapter at 11pm and was so pumped up that I couldn't sleep for half the night! Enjoy, my friend!

[Pope Killdragon]

Aren't all monarchs a little crazy? Really you should be asking these questions of Cersei or Robert. Stannis himself is very competent and in touch with his situation.. Much more so than any of the other so-called "King's". And yeah, this is a hate thread.

[Pope Killdragon]

Just find it weird there is such discussion for such a minor character. Different strokes for different folks :love:

Minor character???? WHAT??? MINOR CHARACTER??? I can't do it-- I wash my hands with this.

[butterbumps!]

This is silly man. You would entrust the defense of the realm to Mance rayder, a man who Stannis directly defeated in battle. Over Stannis? Come on. Not to mention Stannis was outnumbered atleast like 12-1 in the battle. There is no discounting his bravery. Mance has no notable victories in battle where has Stannis has a litany.

I actually agree with Just an Other on this one. In my opinion, and with what we know of Mance, I find Mance to be the most compelling leader in the entire series so far. Yes, more than Stannis, more than Robb. (As an aside, as I see how Jon handles increasing amounts of power/ responsibility, I put him right behind Mance or even overtaking him). The fact that people who hate Mance, like Sigorn, still follow him anyway without it being an issue of duty or vows but out of legitimate respect speaks volumes to me. Stannis is gaining this kind of respect from some Westerosi, but he will never get far if he continues doing things like burning weirwood trees or shoving R'hollor down everyone's throat.

Stannis is a compelling character, and I am finding myself sympathizing with and rooting for him as his arc moves forward, but I don't think he's the best leader out there. I think that it helps his case dramatically that he increasingly makes better decisions, listens to good counsel, has taken the "right" fights in terms of protecting the realm. I like the evolution he's undergone, and I think he's considerably better now than he was in aCoK, and I'd call him competent. But with that said, he has a far way to go still in my opinion to be the "best" leader of the realm.

ETA: to answer, no I don't think he's crazy, I just think he doesn't "get" people, which leads him to say and do things that make him look like he's insane.

[danm_999]

The initial post makes a (weak) argument that Stannis may be foolish, prone to procrastination and malleable, but not insane.

[pitakon]

stannis is boring. he is sane. insane men are not boring. see joffrey.

[butterbumps!]

stannis is boring. he is sane. insane men are not boring. see joffrey.

Joffrey is a lot of things, but interesting isn't one of them.

[Pope Killdragon]

I actually agree with Just an Other on this one. In my opinion, and with what we know of Mance, I find Mance to be the most compelling leader in the entire series so far. Yes, more than Stannis, more than Robb. (As an aside, as I see how Jon handles increasing amounts of power/ responsibility, I put him right behind Mance or even overtaking him). The fact that people who hate Mance, like Sigorn, still follow him anyway without it being an issue of duty or vows but out of legitimate respect speaks volumes to me. Stannis is gaining this kind of respect from some Westerosi, but he will never get far if he continues doing things like burning weirwood trees or shoving R'hollor down everyone's throat.

Stannis is a compelling character, and I am finding myself sympathizing with and rooting for him as his arc moves forward, but I don't think he's the best leader out there. I think that it helps his case dramatically that he increasingly makes better decisions, listens to good counsel, has taken the "right" fights in terms of protecting the realm. I like the evolution he's undergone, and I think he's considerably better now than he was in aCoK, and I'd call him competent. But with that said, he has a far way to go still in my opinion to be the "best" leader of the realm.

ETA: to answer, no I don't think he's crazy, I just think he doesn't "get" people, which leads him to say and do things that make him look like he's insane.

Whether or not he is a compelling leader is almost beside the point. Bamfantheon was making a case for why Stannis would be a better choice to hold the wall. There is no real argument here. Stannis smashed Mance directly and against 20-1 odds. Mance's alliance was fragile and it broke and ran and there was no attempt to rally and rescue their fearless leader.

[E-Ro]

Joffrey is a lot of things, but interesting isn't one of them.

I aggree, joffry is GRRMs worst written charecter imo, because he has no redeeming qualities and is really just for us to hate.

[pitakon]

Joffrey is a lot of things, but interesting isn't one of them.

umm did i say interesting? ummm probably not.... now that i think about it he is indeed interesting. if you are boy of many things then you are interesting... hmmm if he is many things he could be cersei's love child from a children of the forest...

[butterbumps!]

Whether or not he is a compelling leader is almost beside the point. Bamfantheon was making a case for why Stannis would be a better choice to hold the wall. There is no real argument here. Stannis smashed Mance directly and against 20-1 odds. Mance's alliance was fragile and it broke and ran and there was no attempt to rally and rescue their fearless leader.

I should have included the entire exchange to clarify what I was getting it. It started with this:

I concede, I may have been exaggerating. I'll grant you the victory over the Iron Fleet. However, it doesn't seem to me that holding Storm's End actually involved doing anything, we didn't see any of Stannis's troops during the attack on Deepwood Motte (no, I don't consider the Mountain Clans his troops) and beating the wildlings with armored knights does not seem much of an accomplishment. Frankly, I would entrust the defence of the realm to Mance over Stannis any day of the week.

From the full exchange, I ascertained that Just an Other was implying that there is more to being a good king and a protector than simply having the force and tools to beat enemies into submission, especially in the case of Stannis v Mance at the Wall where the Wildlings had inferior weapons and were taken entirely unaware. That's what I was responding to.

[pitakon]

I aggree, joffry is GRRMs worst written charecter imo, because he has no redeeming qualities and is really just for us to hate.

thats just wrong. a boring character is someone you are apathetic to. if you hate a character that much, that means he is interersting.