Is Stannis sane?

[E-Ro]

You're condemning him for things we haven't yet seen, despite the fact that we have seen his arc take a much more positive direction than he was introduced to us as. The fact that Stannis listens to good counsel is a decision-- he does not refuse to be educated/ guided by those he knows have more information than he does. He doesn't say things like "I'm blood of the horned stag, do not presume to teach me."

Quoted for truth. Stannis listens to others, this is a sign of a good ruler he is no fool to ignore everyone because he thinks he knows best. He is not blood of the dragon, poor guy.

[Dany4eva]

and those 3 ships she stole and the army of slaves she stole and those who died from the chaos she has created in 3 cities.

Yes awful awful decision to crucify the people. I cannot defend that.

I am sure the captain went willingly with dany. He was apprehensive yes but to say the ships were stolen? I think lies.

I'm sure those died in the 'choas' cannot vastly outnumber those stannis killed in his battles.

But at the end, as evidenced by this thread, dany is more interesting to talk about n more relevant than stannis.

[Dany4eva]

Quoted for truth. Stannis listens to others, this is a sign of a good ruler he is no fool to ignore everyone because he thinks he knows best. He is not blood of the dragon, poor guy.

More like ruled and manipulated by others. He has no mind of his own.

[Fantôme]

He doesn't say things like "I'm blood of the horned stag, do not presume to teach me."

Quoted for hilariousness :lol:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Yes awful awful decision to crucify the people. I cannot defend that.

I am sure the captain went willingly with dany. He was apprehensive yes but to say the ships were stolen? I think lies.

I'm sure those died in the 'choas' cannot vastly outnumber those stannis killed in his battles.

But at the end, as evidenced by this thread, dany is more interesting to talk about n more relevant than stannis.

No it's because there are good people you try to inculcate Dany's fans with good taste :devil:

[E-Ro]

I'm sure those died in the 'choas' cannot vastly outnumber those stannis killed in his battles.

This is simply not true, the chaos will kill thousands, fire, hunger, rape, murder, etc when a city is sacked all law enforcment goes out the window unless the person in charge of the army takes control and does not allow it. When in battle if you are a very good warrior and you are lucky you will kill maybe 10 guys max, its not lotr or braveheart were you massacre nameless goons its real life killing someone in close combat is very hard, especially if they have armor on. I have been battered enough fooling around at medieval fares and with my freinds at reenactments and such to know its hard. So stannis cannot have been responsible for more deaths then dany, and he has never ordered torture on a massive scale for no reason.

[MCBC]

Stannis is sane. He is just someone who is eccentric & is rigid because he feels he has been disrepected by others his whole life. The irony is that while that may be true, some of the people close to him, value him but he almost completely overlooks it. Davos would do almost anything for him but he never really shows gratitude towards him. Master Cressen raised him & cared for him but Stannis pushed him away. Its almost like Stannis is so used to being treated a certain way that he doesnt know how to react when someone treats him differently.

I disagree with others that think he is boring. To me Stannis is a very complex as an outcast & gets more interesting with every book. He could go nuts or he could finally have his moment in the sun & get the validation from others that he seeks. While he may lack charm, Stannis is a wildcard.

[Brony Stark]

I'm sure those died in the 'choas' cannot vastly outnumber those stannis killed in his battles.

Stannis killed people in battle

Dany tried to mess with cultures and then left them fend for themselves

Big difference

[Stanmore]

Stannis killed people in battle

Dany tried to mess with cultures and then left them fend for themselves

Big difference

Stannis's original plan for the wildlings involved stripping them of their religion and culture then sending them off to die for him. Good Job Jon was around to talk him out of it.

[Fat Mac]

I'm not sure why people believe Stannis is so led by others. They're his advisers for goodness sake. He isn't controlled by Melisandre. He has had need of her, yes. But since they got to the wall it seems he relies on her less and less. The man has done great things by himself (holding Storm's End, taking Dragonstone, destroying the Iron Fleet).

What one would take as Stannis "being controlled by others" I take as "actually listens to other people." We see what happens to those who dont listen to others; Viserys, Cersei, Robert, Balon, Joffrey...

[Associate Maester]

More like ruled and manipulated by others. He has no mind of his own.

I've heard this line repeatedly on here and it makes no sense. If he doesn't listen to wise council he's a tyrant. He does listen to council so he's a puppet...which I have to wonder if we're reading the same bloody series.

[Ser Ragnar]

"Sane" is basically code for stupid, and this is a thinly veiled hate thread.

Anyway he couldn't take the information to Robert because they did not like eachother and Robert would never have believed him. He would only see it as Stannis lobbying to become his heir. There was no love between the two of them.

He attacks Storm's End as a lure to parley with Renly, there he has him assassinated for treachery and absorbs his army afterwards. Not sure how you can see that as anything other than shrewd political move and successful gambit. No tangible benefit except like 60,000 troops. Get real dude.

He loses the battle of Blackwater, where he was on the precipace of victory, because the combined might of the Lannisters and Tyrells attacked him from the rear. Not sure what the hell that has to do with sanity.

Saving the Night's watch has made Stannis less relevant? He's gained a new power base, tripled the size of his army, and works to restore the beloved Starks to their seat of power, thus gaining him more support. What are you talking about? Going to the wall was the best thing that ever happened to him. He saved the realm in the process btw.

Stannis' smashed the Iron fleet at Fair Isle, held Storm's End, rescued the Night's watch, restored the Glover's to Deepwood Motte, was Master of ships for fifteen years and figured out the true lineage of the Baratheon children when everyone else either didn't or were sticking their heads in the sand. He is plenty sane.

You pretty much said it.

Although I will admit that first time reading ACOK, I found Stannis to be unlikeable. Even questioning his mental health and considered him cruel. As the story progressed though, I started to realise he might be the most sane of all the throne candidates. How he saved the wall was what turned me to a Stannis man.

Hail Stannis, MVP of Westeros.

[The Storm Queen]

my two cents

1. Stannis is my favourite male character in the books

2. He has many traits I admire about him and he is not insane

3. However the guy has issues (with capital letters): In order to deal with brother issues he´d need a really good therapist and many sessions. He has problems to fully open up to those who love him like Davos and Shireen, The dark side of his rigidness and "following his principles" seems to be the does not value his life (and probably that of his family) very much. This is imho the main difference to Ned. Ned also believed in honour and principles but he was ready to bow when those he loved where concerned.Stannis is not. This makes Stannis bigger than life but on an emotional level it is not good news and I wonder if he would be the same way if he loved himself and his family more.

In Germany we have a famous novel by Kleist, "Kohlhaas" who deals with a very Stannisesque character and examines the effects his behaviour and values have on himself and the society at large. It shows how destructive such characters can be to themselves and others under some circumstances

[LuisDantas]

You're condemning him for things we haven't yet seen, despite the fact that we have seen his arc take a much more positive direction than he was introduced to us as.

Have we?

The fact that Stannis listens to good counsel is a decision-- he does not refuse to be educated/ guided by those he knows have more information than he does.

The books have been remarkably vague on his reasons for allowing himself to be distant from Melisandre and Davos, however. It looks like GRRM is challenging us readers to make our own minds about the boundaries of his own desires and those of the two (and those of Selise, for that matter). That is probably one reason why so many people want to believe that he will be so much better without Melisandre. We don't have much to go on to decide that it is so, but it is a tempting belief to those who recognize that Stannis has commited attrocities and want to believe they are somehow not his fault.

He doesn't say things like "I'm blood of the horned stag, do not presume to teach me."

Is saying that he is rightful King of Westeros and giving himself right of life and death over the people around him any better or any different?

[The guy from the Vale]

Good catch on the Kohlhaas parallel, Storm Queen. I'm surprisingly often reminded of that novella when reading Davos' (or Jon's) chapters about Stannis.

Stannis definitely is my favourite non-POV character in these books. Not that he'd make a good buddy or anything like that, but he's fascinating and often morally ambiguous, but not as directly hateable as Littlefinger or Varys.

As for his sanity: he's clearly massively neurotic. But at the same time, he might be one of the most rational characters in these books. There are times when this breaks down; but his judgement of the counsel he gets is as good as anyone can be, I'd say.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I've heard this line repeatedly on here and it makes no sense. If he doesn't listen to wise council he's a tyrant. He does listen to council so he's a puppet...which I have to wonder if we're reading the same bloody series.

I've gotten to the point where I ignore those comments, because the evidence is in the text. Stannis refuses to listen to men that kiss his ass, and always insists on having honest council, even if it's something he doesn't want to hear.

Is saying that he is rightful King of Westeros and giving himself right of life and death over the people around him any better or any different?

Yes. Dany's comments and actions come from a sense of arrogance and entitlement. Stannis' comments and actions come from a sense of duty and entitlement.

[Associate Maester]

I've gotten to the point where I ignore those comments, because the evidence is in the text. Stannis refuses to listen to men that kiss his ass, and always insist on having honest council, even if it's something he doesn't want to hear.

It just seems like reaching to me. There are plenty of valid points and criticisms one can make about Stannis--this line of argument isn't one of them.

[The Sleeper]

The value of taking advice was never in question. The question is regarding his ablilty to take initiative of his own. As far as i can tell the only action he has initiated himself in the books is sending that letter.

[Tagganaro]

Is saying that he is rightful King of Westeros and giving himself right of life and death over the people around him any better or any different?

Every lord in the 7 kingdoms has "right of life and death" over their vassals. That's the way feudalism works man. It's not a question of whether he gives it to himself or not, he has it anyway. The only question to ask is whether he abuses that right for improper reasons.

[TepidHands]

Is saying that he is rightful King of Westeros and giving himself right of life and death over the people around him any better or any different?

If the Baratheon children are Fauxratheons instead, he IS the rightful king of Westeros according to their laws and traditions. I