R+L=J v.31

[FittleLinger]

I thought that they actually felt bad for attacking Jon cause they liked him well enough as a lad, but they just had to do it for the sake of the NW. The other thing I thought for a moment was that Mel made them do so in order to save him from the other knives in the darkness that saw in her flames. But I can't think of any reason why Bowen would listen to Mel...

Speaking of daggers in the dark, was it dark when the stabbing took place? What time of the day was it? I don't know why I've always pictured it as day - late afternoon or something?

[Budj]

Speaking of daggers in the dark, was it dark when the stabbing took place? What time of the day was it? I don't know why I've always pictured it as day - late afternoon or something?

I always pictured it at dark...not sure if that's because of descriptors or just my brain though, haha.

[Serie]

Speaking of daggers in the dark, was it dark when the stabbing took place? What time of the day was it? I don't know why I've always pictured it as day - late afternoon or something?

I always pictured it at dark...not sure if that's because of descriptors or just my brain though, haha.

from a quick read, when Jon received Ramsay's letter:

Jon Snow did not answer at once. “Mully, help Clydas back to his chambers. The night is dark,

and the paths will be slippery with snow.

and then he met with Tormund and

They talked for the best part of two hours.

so I guess its safe to assume it'd be dark by the time Jon was stabbed.

[FittleLinger]

from a quick read, when Jon received Ramsay's letter:

and then he met with Tormund and

so I guess its safe to assume it'd be dark by the time Jon was stabbed.

Yep, so it was dark. Maybe I got confused because of the details - Bowen's tears, the other guy's "Wasn't me" reaction, but then again - probably there were sources of light.

[Lady Octarina]

This is a Sam chapter where Small Paul has been stabbed by an Other:

Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell.

Then after Sam stabbed the other with the obsidian blade:

When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Thank you for the references. But that basically confirms what I suggested above: smoking wounds are usually related to mystical events or magical creatures in the books. When Drogon is hurt, when the Other touches obsidian (the only thing other than fire that seems capable of hurting them) - they look like similar occurrences to me. As to Small Paul being stabbed by the Other, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the blades the Others use different to those available to humans? And isn't being stabbed by an Other's blade one of the ways to become a wight?

I'm not saying this confirms anything AA-related in Jon's stabbing; I agree, in that sense, it's most likely a red herring. But I do think it confirms there's more to that scene than a regular natural event, that whatever happened there wasn't as simple as it looks at first glance. Or maybe the smoking wound points to Jon's magical potential (metaphorically - or not - originating from his blood) awakening, his embracing it, or whatever.

[Erudain]

First post wohooo.....re-read the novels after reading theses forums and it's just not the same, you pay way more attention to the clues that make almost 90% sure R+L = J

I'd also like to say all of you are really mean/evil/wicked persons!!!!!....you completely ruined lots of scenes I had in my mind...now everytime i read a description in the books about how Jon "looks like a Stark" I imagine GRRM laughing like a psycho thinking "when will my readers find out"...

[Serie]

First post wohooo.....re-read the novels after reading theses forums and it's just not the same, you pay way more attention to the clues that make almost 90% sure R+L = J

this happened almost to each and every one of us :D

I'd also like to say all of you are really mean/evil/wicked persons!!!!!....you completely ruined lots of scenes I had in my mind...now everytime i read a description in the books about how Jon "looks like a Stark" I imagine GRRM laughing like a psycho thinking "when will my readers find out"...

yes, thank you, mean we are! (and we wear this as a badge of honour :P) welcome and have a happy posting :)

[Sword of the Summer Isles]

The reason this theory is so obvious is because Martin had originally conceived the series as a trilogy. We get beaten over the head with it because he had intended the revelation to come in the third volume. That's my opinion, anyhow. I think that if it's not the case, then he's wasted his time building up a character who isn't important in the long run.

[Dragonfish]

The reason this theory is so obvious is because Martin had originally conceived the series as a trilogy. We get beaten over the head with it because he had intended the revelation to come in the third volume. That's my opinion, anyhow. I think that if it's not the case, then he's wasted his time building up a character who isn't important in the long run.

Martin scrapped the idea of the series being a trilogy before the first volume was even written. To give you an idea of why, he originally intended the first volume to end at the Red Wedding; obviously, such a book would have been far too unwieldy.

I think it's more accurate to say that there are more clues to Jon's parentage in the first volume because that is the only book in which Ned has a POV. The trilogy stuff doesn't really apply.

[Zupoleon]

I think it's more accurate to say that there are more clues to Jon's parentage in the first volume because that is the only book in which Ned has a POV. The trilogy stuff doesn't really apply.

Precisely. Once Ned is gone, there really aren't any POV's left that can shed some light on the subject. And like other posters have noted, many if not most of the readers of the series don't piece together the R + L = J theory, at least not on the first read-through... The theory may be obvious to the online / forum community of ASOIF, but not the rest...

[valyrian_steel]

Smoke vs Steam or the things people do while they wait for a new book.

It isnt much of a reach to say steam is a kind of smoke. Smoke is gases released by burning. If u burn wood, u get water vapor, CO2, various other gases, suspended ash and the like. What defines the make up of the smoke is what u burned. Example... If u burn Mirri Maz Duur Im thinking there would be a hint of roast lamb. If u burn water, there r no impurities, CO2 or other gases...just water vapor...sooooo...Steam is the smoke that results from burning water :drunk:

Also, if Martin uses smoke to describe steam then all bets r off. It's his world, we just live there. Once the flowery prose starts flowing and he refers to a steaming wound as smoking, then the ink is out of the bottle. Dont make metaphors u arent prepared to live with.

[Sword of the Summer Isles]

Precisely. Once Ned is gone, there really aren't any POV's left that can shed some light on the subject. And like other posters have noted, many if not most of the readers of the series don't piece together the R + L = J theory, at least not on the first read-through... The theory may be obvious to the online / forum community of ASOIF, but not the rest...

Well, personally I figured it out before I came on here, but rereading it it does seem painfully obvious. But I didn't get it until I reread the series.

[King Aemon I]

I'm sure it was asked before but I couldn't find it; Were Aenys and Maegor legitimate??

At least one should be a bastard, but Aegon was the king an he might have made them legitimate..

But if they ar both trueborn, if Aegon married both sisters in some Valyrian tradition, R+L=J theory does not necessarily make J a bastard, he might be trueborn because Rhaegar could have married to Lyanna too... I always thought Jon being a true Targaryen were an exaggeration from the fans to make theory perfect, but just now I have considered this double marriage thing...

[Serie]

I'm sure it was asked before but I couldn't find it; Were Aenys and Maegor legitimate??

At least one should be a bastard, but Aegon was the king an he might have made them legitimate..

But if they ar both trueborn, if Aegon married both sisters in some Valyrian tradition, R+L=J theory does not necessarily make J a bastard, he might be trueborn because Rhaegar could have married to Lyanna too... I always thought Jon being a true Targaryen were an exaggeration from the fans to make theory perfect, but just now I have considered this double marriage thing...

yes, both Aenys and Maegor were legitimate. Targs practised polygamy :) Info here

[Sapphire]

I'm sure it was asked before but I couldn't find it; Were Aenys and Maegor legitimate??

At least one should be a bastard, but Aegon was the king an he might have made them legitimate..

But if they ar both trueborn, if Aegon married both sisters in some Valyrian tradition, R+L=J theory does not necessarily make J a bastard, he might be trueborn because Rhaegar could have married to Lyanna too... I always thought Jon being a true Targaryen were an exaggeration from the fans to make theory perfect, but just now I have considered this double marriage thing...

Aegon married both his sisters, Visenya and Rhaenys. Thus both his sons were legit. I subscribe to the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna married the Northern way in front of a heart tree.

[Alia of the knife]

I have another question in regards to the North, and my own personal theory on Brandon and Ashara that I've come to believe.

(Bear with me, I'm in a bit of a rush), but here is the gist.

I've come to believe that Darkstar is actually the son of the Wild Wolf and Ashara.

I also think Doran knows, and ligitimized him, and up until the Myrcella incident, may have been keeping him in his hip pocket as a part of an overall scheme.

If a legitimate son of Brandon showed up in Winterfell, and the North, what impact would that have on Neds children, and even Jon?

Jon may be legitimate himself, but he's only the son of the Sister of House Stark, and while his Father may have been Rhaegar, it doesn't matter now in light of the chaos, and particularly to the North who may have been wanting their own autonomy for some time anyway.

(Jon can only become important if the Kingdom is unified again, and there is one throne)

.

It could be implied that House Martell has had no animosity towards the Starks, or Ned due to their silence on them, but what if the most dangerous man in Dorne is also the most dangerous man in the North as well, undercutting any claim of Neds children, and putting DS first in line for the Northern throne, so as "Aegon" is to Varys, Darkstar is to Prince Doran?

Doran does get his revenge on the Starks, Ned and Lyanna in particular, even if has to use a Stark to do it.

Doran has his bases covered from South to North, (at least until "Aegon" comes on the scene as he doesn't seem to be aware of him).

Maybe a little crackpot, but who knows?

[The guy from the Vale]

This would be a good idea, if high lords could legitimize bastards. But they can't; it's a right that only kings have. Hence, Doran couldn't have legitimized Brandon's bastard on his own, and I'm very reluctant to consider the possibility of Robert undermining Ned. I just don't really see it.

[FittleLinger]

I generally like theories on Darkstar's hidden identity, and I do so for only one reason - Doran said he was the most dangerous man in Dorne. Well, obviously he wasn't speaking of martial prowess. Even if, say, Darkstar was really the best fighter in the realm, I don't think Doran would make such a bold and seemingly educated statement about a great warrior. So the identity thing should be it.

[Erudain]

Do we have a clear date when Lyanna "abduction" by Rhaegar happened?.... I also think they got married in front of a Heart tree....maybe in the Isle of Faces after Harrenhal tournament?

[FittleLinger]

Do we have a clear date when Lyanna "abduction" by Rhaegar happened?.... I also think they got married in front of a Heart tree....maybe in the Isle of Faces after Harrenhal tournament?

Around a year after the tourney I think.