R+L=J v.31

[sagaz]

I have another question in regards to the North, and my own personal theory on Brandon and Ashara that I've come to believe.

(Bear with me, I'm in a bit of a rush), but here is the gist.

I've come to believe that Darkstar is actually the son of the Wild Wolf and Ashara.

I also think Doran knows, and ligitimized him, and up until the Myrcella incident, may have been keeping him in his hip pocket as a part of an overall scheme.

If a legitimate son of Brandon showed up in Winterfell, and the North, what impact would that have on Neds children, and even Jon?

KA-BOOOOOOOMM!!

(there isn't an explosive emoticon... :P )

That would be a revelation!!!

Everyone in the forums theorising about Rickon, ruling out Bran because he supposedly can't have children, and Sansa as a possible Lady of Winterfell...al of that, vanished.

The only thing I could see to level Ned's offspring claim if a son of Brandon exists, is Doran, unknowingly, making their move after Davos found Rickon. The Northern conspiracy has been cooking for so long, and kind of depends of finding a "certified" Stark. I don't think they're going to throw it all away for a foreign newcomer... (and maybe Lady Dustin has something to say about that... ;) )

If Darkstar is Brandon + Ashara would he be legitimate? (maybe yes, and uh-oh, almost every child of Rickard save Ned is a rebel!!)

and also... maybe there isn't a King in the North without a direwolf.

[SFDanny]

Alia, my own favorite theory concerning Ser Gerold is that he is the great-grandson of Aerion Brightflame, better known as Egg's sadistic, crazy as a loon, elder brother. He's the "most dangerous man in Dorne" because, if not for the action of the Great Council all those years ago, it would mean Ser Gerold has a better Targaryen claim than anyone - Daenerys, a real Aegon, or a legitimate R+L=J.

Don't you think the Darkstar's hair color points away from Brandon and Ashara?

[Ygrain]

Gosh, I'd be SO incredibly happy if Darkstar turned out merely an improminent Dayne with issues towards Arthur!

[Serie]

I have another question in regards to the North, and my own personal theory on Brandon and Ashara that I've come to believe.

(Bear with me, I'm in a bit of a rush), but here is the gist.

I've come to believe that Darkstar is actually the son of the Wild Wolf and Ashara.

I also think Doran knows, and ligitimized him, and up until the Myrcella incident, may have been keeping him in his hip pocket as a part of an overall scheme.

If a legitimate son of Brandon showed up in Winterfell, and the North, what impact would that have on Neds children, and even Jon?

Jon may be legitimate himself, but he's only the son of the Sister of House Stark, and while his Father may have been Rhaegar, it doesn't matter now in light of the chaos, and particularly to the North who may have been wanting their own autonomy for some time anyway.

(Jon can only become important if the Kingdom is unified again, and there is one throne)

.

It could be implied that House Martell has had no animosity towards the Starks, or Ned due to their silence on them, but what if the most dangerous man in Dorne is also the most dangerous man in the North as well, undercutting any claim of Neds children, and putting DS first in line for the Northern throne, so as "Aegon" is to Varys, Darkstar is to Prince Doran?

Doran does get his revenge on the Starks, Ned and Lyanna in particular, even if has to use a Stark to do it.

Doran has his bases covered from South to North, (at least until "Aegon" comes on the scene as he doesn't seem to be aware of him).

Maybe a little crackpot, but who knows?

yes, yes, yes THANK YOU!!!!

I've been dreaming of the day someone you'd dare to say that and here you go!!!

I don't think anyone but the king has the power to legitimize a child out of wedding but at that point I think its not of great importance. Just the fact that Brandon left a child would be a huge surprise!!!

[Harlaw's Book]

Crackpot theory: B + A = Darkstar. The Martells know, so when Oberyn and Darry made the marriage pact they also made Viserys sign a decree making Darkstar legitimate.

ETA: However, if Jon was king all along then whatever Viserys signed is worthless.

[Dragonfish]

Just the fact that Brandon left a child would be a huge surprise!!!

Well, George said in a recent interview that Brandon probably has a few bastards running around the North, so this actually wouldn't be anything new.

[SFDanny]

Gosh, I'd be SO incredibly happy if Darkstar turned out merely an improminent Dayne with issues towards Arthur!

Doran's comments seem to rule that out. There's some kind of backstory going on with everyone's favorite inverse skunk.

[Ygrain]

Well, George said in a recent interview that Brandon probably has a few bastards running around the North, so this actually wouldn't be anything new.

And, I would be more surprised if he didn't have any bastards ;-)

Doran's comments seem to rule that out. There's some kind of backstory going on with everyone's favorite inverse skunk.

Couldn't he just be referring to the fact that Darkstar is a ruthless psycho with a big sword and a big grudge?

[Serie]

Well, George said in a recent interview that Brandon probably has a few bastards running around the North, so this actually wouldn't be anything new.

yes, so I've read too (that's why how I got the idea in the first place) but I meant for the people in Westeros... we're well prepared for pretty much anything, no??? :D

[SFDanny]

Couldn't he just be referring to the fact that Darkstar is a ruthless psycho with a big sword and a big grudge?

Not sure just how big his sword is, though I'd bet it's a lot smaller than he'd like people to believe. Of course that's not to imply that size really matters - as the old song says "it ain't the meat, it's the motion. it's the movement that gives it the sock" (thank you Maria Muldaur.)

As to the big grudge, isn't that the point? What the heck makes him so angry? The boy has issues, and what those are is the question.

[Ygrain]

Not sure just how big his sword is, though I'd bet it's a lot smaller than he'd like people to believe. Of course that's not to imply that size really matters - as the old song says "it ain't the meat, it's the motion. it's the movement that gives it the sock" (thank you Maria Muldaur.)

As to the big grudge, isn't that the point? What the heck makes him so angry? The boy has issues, and what those are is the question.

Other than not being found worthy to wield Dawn and living in Arthur's shadow?

[Greywolf2375]

If a legitimate son of Brandon showed up in Winterfell, and the North, what impact would that have on Neds children, and even Jon?

The only way that would occur is if the North knew Brandon had been married and recognized as such - otherwise there wouldn't be an impact.

[Budj]

The only way that would occur is if the North knew Brandon had been married and recognized as such - otherwise there wouldn't be an impact.

Agreed. They weren't legitimized by any King prior to the resurgence of a King in the North...so the claim has moved on.

[SFDanny]

Other than not being found worthy to wield Dawn and living in Arthur's shadow?

That might explain problems with the rest of the Daynes, but not with his need to start a war with the Iron Throne. He's crazy - which also fits with being from Aerion's line.

[Serie]

The only way that would occur is if the North knew Brandon had been married and recognized as such - otherwise there wouldn't be an impact.

with all the respect IMHO this is debatable. The North is trying hard to find a Stark to raise up as a banner and unite under it.In ADWD they found that in the face of fake Arya. Sooner than later they're gonna know that was a sham. Until and if Davos brings Rickon back, there's an empty place. If the North is indeed so willing to unite and rebel then even a bastard of a Stark would do.

[Lady Octarina]

with all the respect IMHO this is debatable. The North is trying hard to find a Stark to raise up as a banner and unite under it.In ADWD they found that in the face of fake Arya. Sooner than later they're gonna know that was a sham. Until and if Davos brings Rickon back, there's an empty place. If the North is indeed so willing to unite and rebel then even a bastard of a Stark would do.

THIS. Also, Darkstar wants nothing more than to cause some chaos against the iron throne; I don't see how the Northerners would be against this at first, especially if he actually looks like Brandon, which is a possibility. And Rickon, while easier to manipulate, is just a kid; it'd be easier to have a Stark who is actually an adult, a capable swordsman, who could lead his own army. Not to mention that chances are he arrives at Winterfell long before Rickon - that is, if he's not already there, the mysterious murderer.

The only real problem I see with this theory is that the North doesn't seem inclined to follow a Southern, much less a Dornish, especially after Ned lost his head - and even if Gerold is 50% Stark, he will always be a Dornish first.

[Ygrain]

That might explain problems with the rest of the Daynes, but not with his need to start a war with the Iron Throne. He's crazy - which also fits with being from Aerion's line.

I think his problem is not just with the Daynes but the rest of the world, as well. In a way, he feels slighted by the Daynes, for all the world to see, and it's not just the Daynes but the world, as well, who keep slighting him by always remembering Arthur and never himself. IMHO, he wants the war with the Iron Throne for two reasons: first, he feels slighted as Dornish (we have seen abundance of these), second, it is an opportunity for him to shine, to prove himself, and to overshadow Arthur's memory as the better knight and swordsman.

Now that I think of it: is it Doran who labels him as the most dangerous man in Dorne, or Arianne? It has been disputed that were he Ashara's son, he'd be 18, which, with a little stretch, might make him considered a peer by Arianne. However, for Doran, he would definitely be a young man.

[Thendel]

The only issue I have with B+A=G is that Gerold has then been passed off as the son of a Dayne of High Hermitage. And in order for that to work, there needs to be either a faked pregnancy by said Daynes or a baby swap to have taken place (and that you could somehow persuade the Daynes to pass him off as their own son). Sorry, but that's too much of a stretch. It might have worked with a no-name commoner, but the Daynes of HH are too well-known in the region for the secret not to get out.

Second, Gerold would need to be legitimized by royal decree in order to become Lord of Winterfell. And that's under the supposition that Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya never resurface. Even as a legitimized bastard, he's behind the four of them.

Third, nobody in the North has ever heard of Gerold, let alone that he's Brandon's bastard with a Dornish woman. He is a Dornishman by looks, culture and blood, and he knows nothing about the North. Nobody would be willing to follow him, and they'd rather trust Ned Starks's bastard (who is a true Northerner) than some silverhaired Dornishman who claims to be one of Brandon's by-blows.

[Serie]

The only issue I have with B+A=G is that Gerold has then been passed off as the son of a Dayne of High Hermitage. And in order for that to work, there needs to be either a faked pregnancy by said Daynes or a baby swap to have taken place (and that you could somehow persuade the Daynes to pass him off as their own son). Sorry, but that's too much of a stretch. It might have worked with a no-name commoner, but the Daynes of HH are too well-known in the region for the secret not to get out.

just for the sake of conversation... isn't it the same thing as Ned's bastard? He was honourable, people wouldn't expect him to lie about such a thing. So the Dayne who claimed Gerold to be his bastard might have done the same thing.

Ned, did it for his sister Lyanna, the unknown Dayne did the same thing for his sister Ashara! He took the baby and people assumed (or he said himself) that he fathered him to a commoner.

Ned's bastard is in the NW and has made clear he won't return for winterfell. Plus he might be dead. If only darkstar looked a bit more like a Northman...

[Lady Octarina]

Ned, did it for his sister Lyanna, the unknown Dayne did the same thing for his sister Ashara! He took the baby and people assumed (or he said himself) that he fathered him to a commoner.

Just one thing: I don't think the Dayne from HH, whoever it was, was Ashara's brother; most likely a cousin. And there is a situation in which this could have occurred - if the lady of High Hermitage was pregnant around the same time as Ashara but HER baby, not Ashara's, was stillborn. In those circumstances, Ashara might have needed to "get rid" of the child, since his father was killed as a traitor by the Targaryens, and the Daynes of HH needed an heir. Many people accept that this exact baby-swap happened between Ashara's child and Elia's; I find it much more likely it would happen within a Dornish family in a considerably isolated region than at court.