R+L=J v.31

[Alia of the knife]

Alia, my own favorite theory concerning Ser Gerold is that he is the great-grandson of Aerion Brightflame, better known as Egg's sadistic, crazy as a loon, elder brother. He's the "most dangerous man in Dorne" because, if not for the action of the Great Council all those years ago, it would mean Ser Gerold has a better Targaryen claim than anyone - Daenerys, a real Aegon, or a legitimate R+L=J.

Don't you think the Darkstar's hair color points away from Brandon and Ashara?

I like that idea as well, but I will give an example down the line here of what stood out to me in my read that made me think of the Brandon Dark Star(k) connection.

I think the genetic imagry of the black streak in his hair points potentially to a Stark as much as Dayne, Dornish, or Free City for true Starks are noted for their dark hair as much as Berantheons.

Aegon managed to be born with pure Tarygaryen features, and Elia had dark hair, and I think the Blackfyres are more particular about inbreeding than their trueborn counterparts at this point.

I also think that if DS had any claim to the Westerosi throne as a potential Targ., Doran might have then made DS option two for Arianne after Viserys, and Arianne seemed to have thought of it, but then she also remembered Doran would think her mad for wanting to marry him, so Doran doesn't sound like he'd be ameniable to the match.

Just one thing: I don't think the Dayne from HH, whoever it was, was Ashara's brother; most likely a cousin. And there is a situation in which this could have occurred - if the lady of High Hermitage was pregnant around the same time as Ashara but HER baby, not Ashara's, was stillborn. In those circumstances, Ashara might have needed to "get rid" of the child, since his father was killed as a traitor by the Targaryens, and the Daynes of HH needed an heir. Many people accept that this exact baby-swap happened between Ashara's child and Elia's; I find it much more likely it would happen within a Dornish family in a considerably isolated region than at court.

I agree with this.

Given that HH was a cadet branch of the family, perhaps they would be willing to raise him in secrecy and be rewarded for it later, or maybe that branch was without an Heir to begin with, and having at least half a Dayne in place to inherit was better than nothing, and Doran legitimizing him also takes care of any potential usurpations of claim to HH on grounds of illegitimacy.

yes, yes, yes THANK YOU!!!!

I've been dreaming of the day someone you'd dare to say that and here you go!!!

I don't think anyone but the king has the power to legitimize a child out of wedding but at that point I think its not of great importance. Just the fact that Brandon left a child would be a huge surprise!!!

Anything for you Serie :cheers:

Edit: I think it's possible that Dorne is autonomous enough that their Rulers can act much like Kings, and have the power to determine status.

I suppose the question is what happens when he leaves the boundries of Dorne in terms of claims, but, at least he doesn't leave Dorne illegitimate.

[Alia of the knife]

For different people, different phrases, tones, or even undertones stick out to people and makes them go "hmmm.."

The reason why I think that Darkstar is the Wild Wolfs son is the read on them, because as I read about Brandon, it seemed familiar to me, and then I remembered what I read about DS.

Brandon: (Theons conversation with Lady D).

Lady D: "he lacks a sword as well."

"He would hate that."

"Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it."

"I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a womans cunt, " said Brandon.

Lady D continues:

"And how he loved to use it."

"A bloody sword is a beautiful thing."

Darkstar: (Princess Arianne):

" ...I shall remain Darkstar, I think. At least it is mine own."

(Is that name his own because the one he has is not)?

" He unsheathed his longsword, sat upon the lip of the dry well, and began to hone the blade with an oilstone."

Arianne: "he is highborn enough to make a worthy consort, she thought, but Father would question my good sense, but our children would be as beautiful as dragonlords, (why make that comparison if he is a dragon)?

"He kept his face clean-shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier, divided by a streak of midnight black."

"He has a cruel mouth, though, and a crueler tongue."

When I went back to reference her conversation with him, that part about him being highborn enough to be her Consort hit me too, because how is it that he is highborn enough to marry the Princess of Dorne, coming from a cadet branch of a Nobler house?

So, it made me speculate that perhaps it's his lineage.

Not Targaryen, or even Blackfyre, because even if he is of Aerions line, Doran would have married her off to him first, (maybe as revenge against the Targaryens for Elias treatment), supporting his claim over Viserys, so there is another reason why Doran would not have supported Arianne marrying DS, though he is highborn enough to marry her.

But, if he is the only son of the Heir to Winterfell, and the Crown Prince of the North had the North broke away from Westeros and become an independent Kingdom again, then he would be highborn enough for Arianne.

But, the other traits that struck me that reminded me of both of them:

- a "breathtaking" arrogance that comes with overconfidence.

- an underlying cruelty that is particular to dangerous men, but a desire for honor as well.

- an underlying anger in both men.

- impulsiveness masked as heroism.

Finally on honor:

- Ser Arthur/Darkstar(k)

- Ned/Brandon

Misc.:

- DS says he's of the night. That is also imagry that could be equated with wolves, as they have been referred to as "children of the Night" in myth and lore.

If this is true, I would imagine that Doran has all evidence in place to satisfy those in the North, and since the Starks have always been the true rulers of the North despite the Dragons invasion, I think if they would follow Robb who is half Tully and looks like Caitlyn, I think they would follow Dayne even if he doesn't look like Brandon, (which he might, if Jon can look like Rhaegar despite the coloring, then DS could look like Brandon).

[Lady Octarina]

Interesting; I never thought Arianne could know about B+A=D, but your observations make me think that's possible, Alia. :laugh:

[Alia of the knife]

Interesting; I never thought Arianne could know about B+A=D, but your observations make me think that's possible, Alia. :laugh:

Well look at the acronym!

BAD :drunk:

I think Arianne knows the scoop on the important families around her even if she didn't know what Doran had planned for her specifically.

If Darkstar is Brandons son, he could very well fit the mold of the ancient Starks who were probably a lot more ruthless, and bloodthirsty, especially when it came to revenge.

(I just hope he doesn't end up with an older Arya to solidify that claim- can you imagine being invited to that party)!?

" The two most dangerous people in the Kingdom request your presense for this years Holiday bash......." :stillsick:

[Ygrain]

just for the sake of conversation... isn't it the same thing as Ned's bastard? He was honourable, people wouldn't expect him to lie about such a thing. So the Dayne who claimed Gerold to be his bastard might have done the same thing.

Ned, did it for his sister Lyanna, the unknown Dayne did the same thing for his sister Ashara! He took the baby and people assumed (or he said himself) that he fathered him to a commoner.

Ned's bastard is in the NW and has made clear he won't return for winterfell. Plus he might be dead. If only darkstar looked a bit more like a Northman...

Not implausible, though I do hope that GRRM doesn't pull the same trick twice.

One thing, though: we might assume B+A, because of what we have learned of Brandon, but there is also around the theory of Aerys raping Ashara - and in this case Darkstar's lineage would make him a truly dangerous man.

[Lord Tyrion]

Someone explain R+L=J?

J is for Jon snow, but what's the rest?

[a free shadow]

Someone explain R+L=J?

J is for Jon snow, but what's the rest?

It is a theory a lot (maybe the most) of the people here accept as a fact. The fact being that Jon Snow is son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.

There is a lot of clues to support this theory throughout the books (mainly the earlier ones though).

[Lord Tyrion]

It is a theory a lot (maybe the most) of the people here accept as a fact. The fact being that Jon Snow is son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.

There is a lot of clues to support this theory throughout the books (mainly the earlier ones though).

Thank you. I will look into the thread, and check it out. Seems interesting considering ned really never said where Jon came from. I guess ned never told Cat then (if this was true) because Cat always thought that it came from Ned

[a free shadow]

Thank you. I will look into the thread, and check it out. Seems interesting considering ned really never said where Jon came from. I guess ned never told Cat then (if this was true) because Cat always thought that it came from Ned

There are a lot of better experts than me, who would lay it all out for you with few well chosen sentences.

Now and then a new thread pops up with people arguing against this theory/fact, but they quickly turn to "the dark side" :D

I could only give a long version with going back and forth from this to that :D

[Dragonfish]

Thank you. I will look into the thread, and check it out. Seems interesting considering ned really never said where Jon came from. I guess ned never told Cat then (if this was true) because Cat always thought that it came from Ned

Make sure you check out Dr. Pepper's first post in this thread. You'll find links to two essays that do a good job laying out the rationale for the theory, particularly in the Tower of the Hand essay.

[rosiemags]

B+A=DS is definitely interesting. Seems like Alia has found some evidence to back it up, too. I'm not quite convinced yet, although, I could be with a little more evidence, I suppose. Some questions I have are:

1. Would GRRM really pull this whole hidden bastard/you think I'm blank, but BAM I'm actually blank storyline yet again? If one more person turns out to be hiding a secret noble identity, I'm going to have some trouble suspending my disbelief. At a certain point, it just cheapens the effect. Anyone could be anyone. Why not H+C=A (Hodor plus Catelyn equals Arya, he's so distraught about the whole thing, he's lost his ability to speak.) or R+L=LE? (Renly and Loras were finally able to find a Westerosi adoption agency that caterers to gay couples and adopted the little girl they'd always wanted. They named her Ermesande and styled her the Infant Lady of Hayford to protect her identity.)

2. Do we have any evidence that Brandon and Ashara would have had a fling/relationship, etc. other than the fact that he seemed to get around? What about Ned? We don't know a ton about Brandon, but I'd like to think that coupled with his brashness was a certain amount of the famous Stark honor. We know Ned had, at least, a flirtation with Ashara and was possibly even very much in love with her. Is Brandon the kind of brother who would piss all over that? Maybe, but I'd like to think not. We don't get much information on Brandon and Ned's relationship as brothers, but I think Meera's tale highlights a family of siblings who were close, loving, considerate and watched out for one another. Seems like GRRM would have given us a clue about Brandon and Ashara at this point. Something like: The girl with laughing purple eyes danced with the quiet pup, but those purple eyes lingered for a moment on the wild pup across the room. Remember, Ned bucked thousands of years of tradition by having Brandon interred in the crypts of Winterfell, so he must have respected his brother very much. Would he still have done that if Brandon had knocked up his first love?

3. Speaking of Ned, why don't you consider the possibility of N+A=DS? Most of the evidence for B+A=DS could also apply for Ned and we have textual evidence that he had feelings for Ashara. Maybe I'm missing something. (Is DS too old to be Ned's son, for instance?) I know this wouldn't have the same effect on the Northern succession, but I find it more plausible from what information we've been given.

[Thendel]

When I went back to reference her conversation with him, that part about him being highborn enough to be her Consort hit me too, because how is it that he is highborn enough to marry the Princess of Dorne, coming from a cadet branch of a Nobler house?

So, it made me speculate that perhaps it's his lineage.

Not Targaryen, or even Blackfyre, because even if he is of Aerions line, Doran would have married her off to him first, (maybe as revenge against the Targaryens for Elias treatment), supporting his claim over Viserys, so there is another reason why Doran would not have supported Arianne marrying DS, though he is highborn enough to marry her.

But, if he is the only son of the Heir to Winterfell, and the Crown Prince of the North had the North broke away from Westeros and become an independent Kingdom again, then he would be highborn enough for Arianne.

But, the other traits that struck me that reminded me of both of them:

- a "breathtaking" arrogance that comes with overconfidence.

- an underlying cruelty that is particular to dangerous men, but a desire for honor as well.

- an underlying anger in both men.

- impulsiveness masked as heroism.

Finally on honor:

- Ser Arthur/Darkstar(k)

- Ned/Brandon

Misc.:

- DS says he's of the night. That is also imagry that could be equated with wolves, as they have been referred to as "children of the Night" in myth and lore.

If this is true, I would imagine that Doran has all evidence in place to satisfy those in the North, and since the Starks have always been the true rulers of the North despite the Dragons invasion, I think if they would follow Robb who is half Tully and looks like Caitlyn, I think they would follow Dayne even if he doesn't look like Brandon, (which he might, if Jon can look like Rhaegar despite the coloring, then DS could look like Brandon).

As for Gerold's traits, you could just as well insert Jaime instead of Brandon. And I think you're confusing anger with a hot temper: Brandon had one heck of a temper, but he wasn't an angry man - Catelyn and Ned both remember him as being quite pleasant in his good moods. Gerold, on the other hand, is definitely an angry man. And please don't say you think Gerold is even somewhat honorable. Brandon may have deflowered a few highborn ladies and left them afterwards, but as far I know, he never attacked defenseless little girls.

As for the Ned/Brandon being the same as Gerold/Arthur, I don't think you're right: Ned and Brandon were remarkably different in terms of temper, sociability and adherence to honor, but they were not polar opposites in the way Gerold and Arthur seem to be; Arthur is held up as the very ideal of what a knight should be, while Gerold consciously chooses to do everything Arthur wouldn't do.

[sagaz]

Well look at the acronym!

BAD :drunk:

I think Arianne knows the scoop on the important families around her even if she didn't know what Doran had planned for her specifically.

If Darkstar is Brandons son, he could very well fit the mold of the ancient Starks who were probably a lot more ruthless, and bloodthirsty, especially when it came to revenge.

(I just hope he doesn't end up with an older Arya to solidify that claim- can you imagine being invited to that party)!?

" The two most dangerous people in the Kingdom request your presense for this years Holiday bash......." :stillsick:

Well, at least people will go to a wedding knowing the risks...

Honored guests: Ser Gregor, Dunsen, Raff the sweetling, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei......

B+A=DS is definitely interesting. Seems like Alia has found some evidence to back it up, too. I'm not quite convinced yet, although, I could be with a little more evidence, I suppose. Some questions I have are:

1. Would GRRM really pull this whole hidden bastard/you think I'm blank, but BAM I'm actually blank storyline yet again? If one more person turns out to be hiding a secret noble identity, I'm going to have some trouble suspending my disbelief. At a certain point, it just cheapens the effect. Anyone could be anyone. Why not H+C=A (Hodor plus Catelyn equals Arya, he's so distraught about the whole thing, he's lost his ability to speak.) or R+L=LE? (Renly and Loras were finally able to find a Westerosi adoption agency that caterers to gay couples and adopted the little girl they'd always wanted. They named her Ermesande and styled her the Infant Lady of Hayford to protect her identity.)

2. Do we have any evidence that Brandon and Ashara would have had a fling/relationship, etc. other than the fact that he seemed to get around? What about Ned? We don't know a ton about Brandon, but I'd like to think that coupled with his brashness was a certain amount of the famous Stark honor. We know Ned had, at least, a flirtation with Ashara and was possibly even very much in love with her. Is Brandon the kind of brother who would piss all over that? Maybe, but I'd like to think not. We don't get much information on Brandon and Ned's relationship as brothers, but I think Meera's tale highlights a family of siblings who were close, loving, considerate and watched out for one another. Seems like GRRM would have given us a clue about Brandon and Ashara at this point. Something like: The girl with laughing purple eyes danced with the quiet pup, but those purple eyes lingered for a moment on the wild pup across the room. Remember, Ned bucked thousands of years of tradition by having Brandon interred in the crypts of Winterfell, so he must have respected his brother very much. Would he still have done that if Brandon had knocked up his first love?

IIRC Brandon was sweetalking Ashara at Harrenhal and was so good and suave at it that arranged a dance with her for his shy brother.

from Cersei and Lady D we know that Brandon was a peacock and (my opinion) a guy with a thing for noble maidens going after his brother's crush is at least a jerk....

I don't know ...I always felt that the only thing someone like Brandon liked of Ned was his friendship with someone like Robert. (meaning, he respected Ned fot that, not that he wanted to be friends with Robert too, no).

Brandon was full of "the heir of Winterfell" stuff, the first one, born to lead... blah, what he could possibly like of someone like Ned other than his soldier traits?

[Alia of the knife]

Not implausible, though I do hope that GRRM doesn't pull the same trick twice.

One thing, though: we might assume B+A, because of what we have learned of Brandon, but there is also around the theory of Aerys raping Ashara - and in this case Darkstar's lineage would make him a truly dangerous man.

I believed that was a possibility too until I went back and referenced Ariannes thoughts on DS being her Consort, and she thought "that their children would be as beautiful as Dragonlords," and I thought to myself why think that if he was indeed a Dragon?

So, though he may have the look of one, it sounds as if he actually is not one.

[Alia of the knife]

Well, at least people will go to a wedding knowing the risks...

Honored guests: Ser Gregor, Dunsen, Raff the sweetling, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei......

IIRC Brandon was sweetalking Ashara at Harrenhal and was so good and suave at it that arranged a dance with her for his shy brother.

from Cersei and Lady D we know that Brandon was a peacock and (my opinion) a guy with a thing for noble maidens going after his brother's crush is at least a jerk....

I don't know ...I always felt that the only thing someone like Brandon liked of Ned was his friendship with someone like Robert. (meaning, he respected Ned fot that, not that he wanted to be friends with Robert too, no).

Brandon was full of "the heir of Winterfell" stuff, the first one, born to lead... blah, what he could possibly like of someone like Ned other than his soldier traits?

Agreed.

That element of "smarminess" in both men is what made me associate both men- like Father, like son.

And though I like the idea of less is best, there are at least two known bastards, and the only question is if one died which is rumoured by Selmy.

In another thread discussing an adult Arya, and who her possible mates might be, it was brought up that symbolically Nymeria kept killing all the wolves who tried to mount her, and the theory arose that it may take another Direwolf, (or one with the Wolfs blood) to do so, and we know that Rickon is truly her brother and his destiny may not be Winterfell, Bran will become a Mage, and the only one left is Jon who would be her cousin, but we hope Martin doesn't go there, :stillsick: so, the other possibility is another.

If DS is Brandons son, he would be unknown to her, and her cousin, and one with the Wolfs Blood...

All this pure speculation and fun of course. :cool4:

[Lady Octarina]

Well look at the acronym!

BAD :drunk:

Well, BAD is always better than BAG :drunk:

If Darkstar is Brandons son, he could very well fit the mold of the ancient Starks who were probably a lot more ruthless, and bloodthirsty, especially when it came to revenge.

THIS. I do think he matches what the Starks were supposed to be like in the old days. I can accept people claiming he can't be Brandon's son because another baby swap would be repetitive, because we don't know for sure about B+A, etc., but the idea that he can't be a Stark because he's not honorable? WTF? Is honor now something that passes through blood? And anyway, since when is honor a Stark defining trait before Ned? If that was the case it seems the word wouldn't be the motto for another House, you know...

(I just hope he doesn't end up with an older Arya to solidify that claim- can you imagine being invited to that party)!?

" The two most dangerous people in the Kingdom request your presense for this years Holiday bash......." :stillsick:

Well, I could ship that. The idea of Arya with anyone has always sounded absurd to me, but Gerold... that would be interesting :devil:

[rosiemags]

IIRC Brandon was sweetalking Ashara at Harrenhal and was so good and suave at it that arranged a dance with her for his shy brother.

from Cersei and Lady D we know that Brandon was a peacock and (my opinion) a guy with a thing for noble maidens going after his brother's crush is at least a jerk....

Maybe I'm not cynical enough, but I read that line to mean that like a good older brother, he was helping Ned out. I thought it was kinda cute and sweet of Brandon to see that his shy younger brother had a crush, but was too scared to do anything about it. I didn't see him as being a jerk about it at all. I guess it's all in the interpretation, though. We don't have much info to work with here.

I look at the "wolf pups" kinda like Ned's own children, a generation later. They may have their slight faults: Brandon was a "hothead," Ned was shy, Lyanna had a wild streak, just as Sansa can be overly sentimental/shallow (esp. before Ned's death), Arya can be disrespectful and defiant, etc. But, overall they love each other very much and are a close-knit family, until outside forces pull them apart. I just can't wrap my head around Brandon being an arrogant, selfish, angry man with no regard for his brother's feelings.

[King Doug]

Maybe I'm not cynical enough, but I read that line to mean that like a good older brother, he was helping Ned out. I thought it was kinda cute and sweet of Brandon to see that his shy younger brother had a crush, but was too scared to do anything about it. I didn't see him as being a jerk about it at all. I guess it's all in the interpretation, though. We don't have much info to work with here.

I look at the "wolf pups" kinda like Ned's own children, a generation later. They may have their slight faults: Brandon was a "hothead," Ned was shy, Lyanna had a wild streak, just as Sansa can be overly sentimental/shallow (esp. before Ned's death), Arya can be disrespectful and defiant, etc. But, overall they love each other very much and are a close-knit family, until outside forces pull them apart. I just can't wrap my head around Brandon being an arrogant, selfish, angry man with no regard for his brother's feelings.

I agree with you. We don't know much about Brandon, but we do know enough about the strength of the sibling bond between Ned/Lyanna/Benjen, and also the bond between Ned's kids. I have no reason to believe that Brandon didn't have that same bond with his siblings. I don't have any brothers, but I wouldn't even think about hitting on a girl that even my good friends were interested in.

While I think that Alia may be onto something about the Darkstar's parents. I'm not sold on Arianne. We get into her inner dialogue (not that much yet) and she really didn't even hint at knowing. Your original point still stands, I suppose. But when I think about things in my head I don't really think in riddles or hidden truths. I think when she is saying that he is highborn enough, she is meaning Darkstar has a noble name even though it's not THE Daynes that Doran would prefer.

I think it'd be cool if Darkstar was actually important, and I look forward to learning why he is the most dangerous man in Dorne. I wish I could smoke this crackpot with you, but that would mean I'd have to be severely disappointed in Brandon Stark. I guess with all the Starks, we are overdue for a jackass, so I'll give you that. I find this plausible, but Arianne is oblivious to it if it is true

[Alia of the knife]

King Doug,

Fair enough :)

It's all in fun.

I'm not entirely anti Brandon, but I do think he's a little more nebulous than Ned, though I don't think he'd deliberately hurt Ned.

[sagaz]

I don't think that he would hurt Ned on purpose, but I really do think that Brandon was at least a hypocrite. He made a sport of having noble maidenhoods¹ but went all fired up to call Rhaegar to come out and die when he took his sister... was it for her honor? was it for the supposedly violence inflicted upon Lyanna? was it for his house honor? and were's all the honor he took from other houses? (Ryswell and Dayne come to mind)

I think Brandon is this hot headed guy (a little jackass, yes) that lacks awareness of others, he doesn't do it on purpose he just does it. The first one, the leader, the future lord... built that way.

¹_ because it wasn't only to have girls like Robert's, they have to be highborn (or that seems)