R+L=J v.31

[Scarlet Seastar]

Also, the colors of the dragons: Drogon is black-Night's Watch, green(Rhaegal) for warging/greenseeing, and Viserion(pale)-Snow.

I might be overcrackpotting it with Viserion, I know, but I never felt that Dany's dragons were hers because she never controlled them like Jon could control Ghost(even though direwolves are supposed to be vicious and hard to tame), and never had any trouble with him.

The king in westeros/north/beyond could be easily achieved, westeros-because he's a Targ, north because he's a Stark, beyond because he's a Warg.

He already acts like a king who cares for his kin-he sent ships to save the wildlings, for Pete's Sake!

Also, Jon is much more suitable for the Throne than Dany. It is known :D

The other animal he could warg, if he tried, could be Mormont's Raven.

The Old Bear could also have been a warg, because She-bear(can't remember her name properly) told Asha that Mormont women are skinchangers, may be Mormont men are skinchangers but with a different animal(ravens). The Old Bear would have entered his raven when he died, and that's why he went to Jon.

It is also notable that Maester Aemon never talked about Rhaegar in front of Jon. May be the old Maester knew, or may be guessed that Jon is Rhaegar's son. Though, it could also mean that he believes that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and felt ashamed and didn't want to talk about him to someone close to the Starks, or believed that Jon is the child of rape.

[Waters]

First post for me! I finished reading the books yesterday and I had this theory in my mind (about Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar) and nobody I know has read the books so I couldn't ask for opinions. And then I found this (Yay!) and now I know I'm not the only one!

I think Maester Aemon suspected (if he didn't already know) that Jon was Rhaegar's son, but he kept quiet because he didn't think it was the right time for him to know or it wasn't necessary for him to know.

I don't think Lyanna was raped, I think they got married, and had this child. Anyway, I still have to re-read some chapters that talk about what happened then.

[Scarlet Seastar]

Welcome to the forum. :)

I think almost everyone that follows this thread is certain of the fact that Rhaegar and Lyanna did love each other, you're not the only one. :D

I'm more inclined to think that he didn't think Jon was ready to know because it might tempt him to desert (remember in GOT when he tells Jon of how he was tempted three times to leave the Night's Watch, but he didn't).

[Lady Octarina]

Also, the colors of the dragons: Drogon is black-Night's Watch, green(Rhaegal) for warging/greenseeing, and Viserion(pale)-Snow.

I might be overcrackpotting it with Viserion, I know, but I never felt that Dany's dragons were hers because she never controlled them like Jon could control Ghost(even though direwolves are supposed to be vicious and hard to tame), and never had any trouble with him.

The king in westeros/north/beyond could be easily achieved, westeros-because he's a Targ, north because he's a Stark, beyond because he's a Warg.

He already acts like a king who cares for his kin-he sent ships to save the wildlings, for Pete's Sake!

Also, Jon is much more suitable for the Throne than Dany. It is known :D

The other animal he could warg, if he tried, could be Mormont's Raven.

The Old Bear could also have been a warg, because She-bear(can't remember her name properly) told Asha that Mormont women are skinchangers, may be Mormont men are skinchangers but with a different animal(ravens). The Old Bear would have entered his raven when he died, and that's why he went to Jon.

It is also notable that Maester Aemon never talked about Rhaegar in front of Jon. May be the old Maester knew, or may be guessed that Jon is Rhaegar's son. Though, it could also mean that he believes that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and felt ashamed and didn't want to talk about him to someone close to the Starks, or believed that Jon is the child of rape.

I agree with everything you said except that Aemon knows about Jon's parents - if he did know, I'm sure he would have said something, maybe just the fragment of a sentence or a feverish line, about it to Sam when he was talking about Daenerys, how she was the last Targ, how he wanted to meet her, etc. I'm also not that sure about what skinchanging abilities the Mormonts might have, but that's another subject :cool4:

[butterbumps!]

I saw that there was a bit of discussion some pages back about the "keep reading" quote from Martin from that latest Spanish interview (don't worry- this isn't really a crackpot conspiracy :cool4: ):

Arthur Dayne has been presented as the quintessential chivalrous knight. How could he support the atrocities of Aerys, that even Jaime was horrified by?

Well... keep reading.

So this is an issue I'd been troubled by for a long time: why does Ned feel nothing but respect for Dayne, despite Dayne standing by at these atrocities? And relatedly, should we see Dayne as a purely honorable man? I think this "keep reading" has something to do with a revelation about Dayne's honor, likely at the TOJ (rather than suggestion of a conspiracy or a ton of backstory).

We know that "[Dayne] would have killed [Ned] but for Howland Reed." I know there's been a lot of speculation as to what this intervention could be (verbal, as in "we're not here to kill Lyanna," warging, scrappy fighting, etc.)

I've been wondering if Reed's intervention is verbal, but one of shaming Dayne for just "following orders." The story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is significant in so many ways, and I believe that the fact that Lyanna fought for Howland's honor may add another layer here. That Lyanna told the knights of those squires to "teach them honor" may be precisely what Howland appealed to-- that Dayne's standing by as Aerys committed atrocities went against the original knight's vow to protect those who could not defend themselves.

So I'm suggesting that Howland may have called Dayne out for his crime of standing by, and the responsibility he bore for enabling this misery, forgetting his honor as a knight. Dayne, being "honorable" may have put down his sword, perhaps falling on it or beseeching "punishment" for this "crime."

I know the notion of Dayne's sacrificing himself has been tossed around before, but I thought this might offer a subtle explanation that reconciles some of what I believe to be conflicting aspects of character that otherwise seem slightly "messy" to me. Not only that, but I think this might yield a very satisfying layer to the KotLT story, which I think has significance beyond establishing Lyanna as a willing love interest of Rhaeger. (Sorry if this has been mentioned- I confess I didn't go through all 31 of these, lol).

[Lykos]

butterbumps!, I like this scenario and have played through similar ones in my mind, but you need a build up for Arthur Dayne to be influenced in that way by Howland in such a short time, I think. Maybe Lyanna prepared him.

The other thing is, what would Howland know about things we only learned from Jaime. It didn´t seem to be common (or at least certain) knowledge that Aerys raped Rhaella after every time he burned someone.

I still prefer the thought that Howland called for a truce and the King´s Guard and Ned found a very painfull way to keep Rhaegar´s and Lyanna´s secret of world altering (saving?) importance, which lead to Ned thinking of his companions as wraiths and regretting giving the promise to Lyanna before the misery it caused even became really miserable. Again I think Duncan´s solution in the "Sworn Sword" is a possible pattern a modified version of which could have solved the conflict at the Tower of Joy.

[Elric the White Wolf]

Just thought it might be useful for those new to the series and the forum to be provided with a bit of info on the theory early in the new thread.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame was died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by her own dragon, presumably fire roasted before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Many of the Great Bastards did not have Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages and the three Kingsguards who were present at the Tower of Joy. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Sorry to requote your entire post, Dr. Pepper, but it so excellent it deserves extra space and accolades! Thank you so very much for compiling this info for both the newbies and for the regular visitors to the R+L=J thread. Hopefully it will help with the perpetual "but why" questions concerning Jon's hand, hair/eye color, status as legitimate heir, etc. And regulars can reread periodically, as sometimes reading through old material (at least I have found this to be so in my case) can inspire some new take on the Great Matter of Jon's parentage, his status as the DragonWolf King (in my hopes -- he and Danny will meet and reconcile, fall madly in love at first sight, and perhaps marry if that's not too creepy, or they will co-rule in happiness -- very unlikely, I know, given GGRM's penchant for mayhem. But a reader can dream?!)

I have become so pathetic -- I had been away for a few days and when I returned to westeros I was terrified when I couldn't find our thread straightaway! Now breathing again...

[Budj]

I still prefer the thought that Howland called for a truce and the King´s Guard and Ned found a very painfull way to keep Rhaegar´s and Lyanna´s secret of world altering (saving?) importance, which lead to Ned thinking of his companions as wraiths and regretting giving the promise to Lyanna before the misery it caused even became really miserable. Again I think Duncan´s solution in the "Sworn Sword" is a possible pattern a modified version of which could have solved the conflict at the Tower of Joy.

....Goooo on? :cheers:

[Alia of the knife]

I saw that there was a bit of discussion some pages back about the "keep reading" quote from Martin from that latest Spanish interview (don't worry- this isn't really a crackpot conspiracy :cool4: ):

So this is an issue I'd been troubled by for a long time: why does Ned feel nothing but respect for Dayne, despite Dayne standing by at these atrocities? And relatedly, should we see Dayne as a purely honorable man? I think this "keep reading" has something to do with a revelation about Dayne's honor, likely at the TOJ (rather than suggestion of a conspiracy or a ton of backstory).

We know that "[Dayne] would have killed [Ned] but for Howland Reed." I know there's been a lot of speculation as to what this intervention could be (verbal, as in "we're not here to kill Lyanna," warging, scrappy fighting, etc.)

I've been wondering if Reed's intervention is verbal, but one of shaming Dayne for just "following orders." The story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is significant in so many ways, and I believe that the fact that Lyanna fought for Howland's honor may add another layer here. That Lyanna told the knights of those squires to "teach them honor" may be precisely what Howland appealed to-- that Dayne's standing by as Aerys committed atrocities went against the original knight's vow to protect those who could not defend themselves.

So I'm suggesting that Howland may have called Dayne out for his crime of standing by, and the responsibility he bore for enabling this misery, forgetting his honor as a knight. Dayne, being "honorable" may have put down his sword, perhaps falling on it or beseeching "punishment" for this "crime."

I know the notion of Dayne's sacrificing himself has been tossed around before, but I thought this might offer a subtle explanation that reconciles some of what I believe to be conflicting aspects of character that otherwise seem slightly "messy" to me. Not only that, but I think this might yield a very satisfying layer to the KotLT story, which I think has significance beyond establishing Lyanna as a willing love interest of Rhaeger. (Sorry if this has been mentioned- I confess I didn't go through all 31 of these, lol).

Hi Butterbumps!

I agree that this is likely, and I love the idea that the symbol of the KoTL has more signifigance to it than just a reason to bring Rhaegar and Lyanna together.

As much as I enjoy jumping down the crackpot rabbit hole from time-to-time, I do think less "bells and whistles" Martin throws in, confining mysterious babies and identities to the ones already established, (though the elder Brandon Stark may have left behind a surprise package), I think less is best, and the simplest explaination is most likely.

The idea that the straightforward, and noble ideology of the KotLT would influence Dayne via Reed, is as likely and simple as anything.

And Dayne falling on his sword, sacrificing himself for the last vestages of honor that he once believed in, redeems all the times he looked away from Aerys doings.

Dayne started getting it and got in a way that Selmy never would, because Selmy is a "black and white" policy man.

And you see hints of this later in the story of Oakhart when as he is falling in love with Arianne, and he remembers how he treated Sansa, feeling shame and guilt.

I think Oakhart sacrificed himself for a combination of Arianne and all the dishonorable things he participated in.

[Maxpey]

Hi Butterbumps!

I agree that this is likely, and I love the idea that the symbol of the KoTL has more signifigance to it than just a reason to bring Rhaegar and Lyanna together.

As much as I enjoy jumping down the crackpot rabbit hole from time-to-time, I do think less "bells and whistles" Martin throws in, confining mysterious babies and identities to the ones already established, (though the elder Brandon Stark may have left behind a surprise package), I think less is best, and the simplest explaination is most likely.

The idea that the straightforward, and noble ideology of the KotLT would influence Dayne via Reed, is as likely and simple as anything.

And Dayne falling on his sword, sacrificing himself for the last vestages of honor that he once believed in, redeems all the times he looked away from Aerys doings.

Dayne started getting it and got in a way that Selmy never would, because Selmy is a "black and white" policy man.

And you see hints of this later in the story of Oakhart when as he is falling in love with Arianne, and he remembers how he treated Sansa, feeling shame and guilt.

I think Oakhart sacrificed himself for a combination of Arianne and all the dishonorable things he participated in.

You both make excellent points.

The only issue I have with your assertions are that if you are correct, then Dayne chose suicide instead of upholding his vow to protect the life of the King to the last. I don't see Dayne doing this, given that the King in this case was the son of his beloved friend, Rhaegar.

Perhaps Dayne felt guilty about more than standing by while Aerys committed his cruel acts. Maybe it was also over his involvement with Rhaegar's alleged "coup."

[Alia of the knife]

You both make excellent points.

The only issue I have with your assertions are that if you are correct, then Dayne chose suicide instead of upholding his vow to protect the life of the King to the last. I don't see Dayne doing this, given that the King in this case was the son of his beloved friend, Rhaegar.

Perhaps Dayne felt guilty about more than standing by while Aerys committed his cruel acts. Maybe it was also over his involvement with Rhaegar's alleged "coup."

I would again just go back to the simplest explaination, and say that perhaps Dayne was persuaded the best protection for his King was that he go with Ned.

Jon is better served, given his appearance, to hide out "in the open."

If Jons appearance were more overtly Targaryen, then I'd say even Ned might have agreed to let the KG take him, say to Lys where that coloring would not stand out as it might in the North, because at this point, irregardless of sentimental feelings, both men need to think of what is best for Jon and what best preserves his life.

In that way, Dayne is doing the honorable thing.

[Thendel]

I seriously doubt that words brought down Arthur Dayne. And the falling on his own sword part is too much Túrin Turambar in a context where he has every reason to keep fighting for the rightful king. It just seems downright stupid, especially in light of his only remaining opposition being Ned Stark and Howland Reed.

[Erudain]

Well they do say that only Ned and Reed survived the encounter so it's pretty sure thing that a fight indeed happened.

Perhaps Reed's (or Ned's) words on its own didn't break Arthur 100% for him to suicide (ala Turin Turambar as Thenel quoted), but perhaps they created enough doubts in his mind to lose focus on the fight and he gets killed...even the best swordmans can't fight at their full potential if they are not focused.

[Alia of the knife]

I seriously doubt that words brought down Arthur Dayne. And the falling on his own sword part is too much Túrin Turambar in a context where he has every reason to keep fighting for the rightful king. It just seems downright stupid, especially in light of his only remaining opposition being Ned Stark and Howland Reed.

You know,

There are instances in real history aside from fantasy where people have fallen on their swords for honor, namely the Samurai where honor was placed above everything.

Seppuku: Allows a disgraced Samurai to regain his honor by passing into death.

I don't think it's a stretch to think that Martin may be influenced by this notion, especially in regards to someone like Dayne.

[rmholt]

Well they do say that only Ned and Reed survived the encounter so it's pretty sure thing that a fight indeed happened.

Perhaps Reed's (or Ned's) words on its own didn't break Arthur 100% for him to suicide (ala Turin Turambar as Thenel quoted), but perhaps they created enough doubts in his mind to lose focus on the fight and he gets killed...even the best swordmans can't fight at their full potential if they are not focused.

It was also specifically said that Ned defeated Dayne in single combat and that except for Howland Reed, Ned would not have survived. If he is the little crannogman in KoLT he learned a few things on the Isle of Faces besides the usual Neck skills.

I dont buy for a minute that Dayne didnt fight his hardest.

[Lady Octarina]

I honestly think that, if cleaning his honor was all Dayne cared about, it's much more likely he would do his best to survive that fight and fulfill his vows than simply commit suicide. As many of you have said, his duty wasn't simply to protect Jon (if that was the case, no need for any fights after all), but also to protect his rights to the throne, his duty was to the dynasty. I'm not even mentioning the possibility he approved Rhaegar's plans for a coup or whatever that was (though I'm nearly certain that was the case), but there would be no honor in giving up the fight simply because he didn't do anything against Aerys - wouldn't it make more sense to compensate his inaction back then by ensuring that baby would be an honorable man, a good king, everything Aerys wasn't? Not to mention it would invalidate all his prior struggle, everything he and his sworn brothers who died before his at the ToJ had fought for.

I just don't buy it.

[Scarlet Seastar]

I think there was a fight at the Tower, but not to stop Ned to see Lyanna, but to stop Ned from taking Jon with him.

They were guarding their king. If they allowed Ned to take Jon(and raise him as his bastard), then they would have no honor.

Also, Howland Reed wouldn't have been there if he hadn't been good a fighting(may be if not with a sword, with a spear or something) and he saved Ned that way.

[BannermanOfDorne]

It was also specifically said that Ned defeated Dayne in single combat and that except for Howland Reed, Ned would not have survived. If he is the little crannogman in KoLT he learned a few things on the Isle of Faces besides the usual Neck skills.

I dont buy for a minute that Dayne didnt fight his hardest.

Agreed, it would be odd to think a swordsman as Dayne would not be sharp at such a moment

[three-eyed monkey]

Well they do say that only Ned and Reed survived the encounter so it's pretty sure thing that a fight indeed happened.

It's a sure thing the fight happened but, IIRC, Ned says seven rode up, met three KG, and two rode away or something like that. But is it two of the seven or two of the ten?

What is certain is that we have no mention from Ned of Dayne's death so he could have walked away that day. Hence the QH=AD theories.

[Foxhound]

It's a sure thing the fight happened but, IIRC, Ned says seven rode up, met three KG, and two rode away or something like that. But is it two of the seven or two of the ten?

What is certain is that we have no mention from Ned of Dayne's death so he could have walked away that day. Hence the QH=AD theories.

I think it's pretty clear all three died, and five of the seven:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.