R+L=J v.31

[rmholt]

Is this what you were refering to?

Because then it's a just rumour being told about the fight, not a confirmation by Ned. His soldiers probably don't know all the details other than some of Ned's men and all the Kingsguard was killed, and are telling the most dramatic interpretation of the fight.

As for Ned's host, we aren't told anything specific. However the theory I believe in is that after Storm's Ending Ned went looking around the south for Lyanna. He found out (maybe from Ashara) that she was at the ToJ, and that she was pregnant with Rhaegar's child. He therefore only went there with 6 trusted companions instead of an army to keep it a secret. The "pulling down" the tower may just be an exaggeration, or he brought in more men after.

Quote

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

Could be. No less believable than an opium dream. Having a host seems to explain some of the otherwise unexplainable facts.

[Dragonfish]

Well, my search for references still not finished but I have a new idea about why the KG did not go with Viserys the presumptive heir. Barristan tells Dany that even as a child he seemed too nuts to be king, like his dad. Barristan is not a plotter but the KG may have made an executive decision that Viserys wasnt going to be succeeding Rhaegar no matter what happened. Jaime was at KL presumably protecting Rhaegar's children and on the off chance that they could make something out of Lyanna's child, they took their chances at T o J

I find this unlikely, given that one of the remaining Kingsguard, Ser Gerold Hightower, explicitly states that it is not the Kingsguard's duty to sit in judgment of their monarchs, only to guard them. So I doubt someone like him would choose to pass over Viserys. That would be a violation of his duty, as he conceives it.

Well it would be unprecedented for a guy at war to go off without any escort at all. even Littlefinger had a few hundred men. He had a host at Storms End and things happened at T o J that one or two men couldnt do - who is the "they" that found him with Lyanna - did HR have a mouse in his pocket?

There were probably more people at the ToJ than just Lyanna and the Kingsguard. Wylla, for instance. Maybe even a maester. The mystery of who found Ned with Lyanna need not be answered by positing that Ned had more troops with him. Indeed, we know that this is not the case, given that George said Ned did not bring his army with him to Dorne.

[FrozenFire3]

Well, my search for references still not finished but I have a new idea about why the KG did not go with Viserys the presumptive heir. Barristan tells Dany that even as a child he seemed too nuts to be king, like his dad. Barristan is not a plotter but the KG may have made an executive decision that Viserys wasnt going to be succeeding Rhaegar no matter what happened. Jaime was at KL presumably protecting Rhaegar's children and on the off chance that they could make something out of Lyanna's child, they took their chances at ToJ

Yes, I do remember this quote from Barristan in ASoS, but I don't think the KG made such a decision with going at ToJ... I don't think it was about taking their chances there since Jaime was with Aegon and Rhaenys in King's Landing. Otherwise, their last words to Ned would make no sense.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

To me this sounds like Ned telling them: "Well, the king isn't here, he's at Dragonstone... why aren't you there? Why stay at ToJ?"

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Again, Ser Oswell, Ser Gerold and Ser Arthur Dayne are trying to make a point here: "Ser Willem is not of the KG, he is a good man, but not of the KG, that's why he's with Viserys. We, instead are of the KG and the KG does not flee. We swore a vow to protect the king and we are honouring that vow."

I think all in all, that's the meaning, it's exactly what they're saying. They weren't talking about some other vow they made to Rhaegar (or someone else), they are specifically talking about the KG vow here. And they are keeping that vow.

[three-eyed monkey]

I think Ned only brought six trusted comrades to the ToJ because I don't see anything that suggests otherwise.

I'd also speculate that he went from Storm's End to Starfall first because I don't think there was anyone in KL or SE that would have known Lyanna was at the ToJ, whereas Ashara may have known about it. It makes sense that Ned would next try Starfall and Oldtown after SE considering Dayne and Hightower were missing. He must have guessed Lyanna was with them, and he may have brought only men he trusted for fear of what he'd find. I'm not sure.

We don't know much about the ToJ itself. It could have been a simple tower of unmortared stone for all we know, in fact Ned using stones from the tower to build the cairns might even suggest it was, so I don't know if I buy that there were maids and cooks there. Rhaegar was fond of sleeping in the ruins of Summerhall iirc and Lyanna was the outdoor type so we don't necessarily need an entourage. Likewise we have no evidence that Lyanna had a midwife or that Wylla was there. Wylla was certainly involved somehow as she does seem to be part of the Jon is Ned's bastard cover-up going by what Edric Dayne had heard, but whether she came into the picture when Ned returned to Starfall with Dawn and baby Jon or whether she was at the ToJ all along is hard to tell. She may have been one of the "they" that found Ned holding Lyanna's body, but it's hard to know conclusively. As Dayne's death is not confirmed, he could also be one of the "they", at least we know he was at the ToJ.

As for who Dayne might have become if he didn't die? I don't know. The Halfhand is one option, I haven't seen too many other theories on that. And it is still very possible that Ned or Howland did kill him.

[Starksession]

I

[Starksession]

My theory is that the dragons don't really matter and that although they will play a big part in fighting the others they all have to die for order to be restored in the world. I believe Jon is AA and ghost will die to somehow to transform him into AA possibly from longclaw turning longclaw into lightbringer(ghost is a part of jon so in turn he becomes AA by killing a part of his soul) the story is a song of ice (direwolf) and fire(ghosts eyes). As for the three heads and who rules in the end could be numerous ppl but its really ghost and jons story if R+L=J is true ghost and jon are both fire and ice....makes sense right?

[ParadiseSeeker]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, so please, apologize my mistakes in english and be kind to me :)

I like this L+R=J theory, all the pieces seem to fall into place and I just kinda want a great fate for Jon.

I am sorry if this has been discused before, I really didn't read through all of the Jon material here: There's just one thing that always comes into my mind - I wouldn't even notice these things, but after all the "Seed is strong"...- if jon is Rhaegar's son, he should look like Targ. Every Targ in the books we know had those long silverblond hair. And we have a proof that Stark genes aren't that strong, considering that most of Ned's children look Tully way (and with how we know Cat's character,I think we can be sure they really are Ned's). So how come that suddenly Stark gene was stronger than Targ's?

And one more thing I noticed (again, sorry if it was brought up before): in the series (I realize that the books are much more reliable source), we can see that Dany's visit in House of Undying is farely different than in books. But GRRM still is a part of the creative team and has a big say in it, and I think when they said him "We don't have money and technique for all that, too many characters also, woud be confusing for non-readers..." he said "okay, but there's a message I need to send, cause it will be important later."

So we see Dany walking in the great hall of King's Landing, with torn roof (dragons? might be after some sort of war). They are clearly teasing her with what she wants the most (she has to turn away from Iron Throne and Drogo in order to find dragons), but other interpretation also bears the omnipresent warning Winter is coming into Westeros. But if we also interpret it very literally, she sees SNOW ON THE IRON THRONE. Can it be more hinting than that?

[Arionis]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, so please, apologize my mistakes in english and be kind to me :)

I like this L+R=J theory, all the pieces seem to fall into place and I just kinda want a great fate for Jon.

I am sorry if this has been discused before, I really didn't read through all of the Jon material here: There's just one thing that always comes into my mind - I wouldn't even notice these things, but after all the "Seed is strong"...- if jon is Rhaegar's son, he should look like Targ. Every Targ in the books we know had those long silverblond hair.

Not again.

Not all Targs have silverblond hair and purple-violet-lilac eyes: for example, Rhaenys, Rhaegar's daughter, had dark hair and eyes.

Edit: I've just realized I was too harsh, Sorry and welcome to the forums!!

[The guy from the Vale]

Well, to go back to Dr. Pepper's post on the very first page of this thread... the silver-blond hair is a highly recessive trait that occurs mainly in Targs from incestuous marriages. Many Targaryen descendants with non-Targaryen parents have other hairs; Princess Rhaenys, the daughter of Rhaegar and Elia, had her mother's Dornish dark brown hair and eyes. Similarly, Baelor Breakspear, the first son of Daeron II and Myriah Martell, also had the Martell look. Then there are the great bastards of Aegon IV, including Aegor 'Bittersteel' Rivers, a dark-haired Bracken/Targ bastard. Also, a number of families with Targaryen ancestors don't have anyone with Targaryen traits - the Baratheons and Martells have Targ ancestors and have dark hair and eyes.

[FrozenFire3]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, so please, apologize my mistakes in english and be kind to me :)

I like this L+R=J theory, all the pieces seem to fall into place and I just kinda want a great fate for Jon.

I am sorry if this has been discused before, I really didn't read through all of the Jon material here: There's just one thing that always comes into my mind - I wouldn't even notice these things, but after all the "Seed is strong"...- if jon is Rhaegar's son, he should look like Targ. Every Targ in the books we know had those long silverblond hair. And we have a proof that Stark genes aren't that strong, considering that most of Ned's children look Tully way (and with how we know Cat's character,I think we can be sure they really are Ned's). So how come that suddenly Stark gene was stronger than Targ's?

And one more thing I noticed (again, sorry if it was brought up before): in the series (I realize that the books are much more reliable source), we can see that Dany's visit in House of Undying is farely different than in books. But GRRM still is a part of the creative team and has a big say in it, and I think when they said him "We don't have money and technique for all that, too many characters also, woud be confusing for non-readers..." he said "okay, but there's a message I need to send, cause it will be important later."

So we see Dany walking in the great hall of King's Landing, with torn roof (dragons? might be after some sort of war). They are clearly teasing her with what she wants the most (she has to turn away from Iron Throne and Drogo in order to find dragons), but other interpretation also bears the omnipresent warning Winter is coming into Westeros. But if we also interpret it very literally, she sees SNOW ON THE IRON THRONE. Can it be more hinting than that?

Hi there ParadiseSeeker and welcome to the forum!! :D

Excellent and interesting points ^_^

As for your theory and doubts on Jon's looks, I have a few things to say... First and foremost the Targaryens we know in the books are all sons and daughters born from a pure line: Dany, Viserys and Rhaegar are the children of Rhaella and her brother Aerys who both had Targaryen features. Rhaenys (Rhaegar's daughter) was said to have had her mother's features, so Martell features. Dark hair and skin. Aegon, as young Griff apparently takes after his father but we are not sure if he truly is Rhaegar's son. The silver hair, pale skin, violet eyes should all be recessive genes so in Aegon's case he should have probably taken after his mother, although of course, as you said, the Stark children have Cat's auburn hair which should be a recessive gene too, compared with Ned's dark hair (but take Arya... she had Ned's looks). So there really isn't a rule. Aegon may have been as different from Rhaenys as anyone. As for Jon, there is no rule that applies for him either. Lyanna had dark hair and grey eyes (Stark looks), Rhaegar had silver hair, and dark violet eyes (unlike Dany and Viserys' which were lilac). Jon (who isn't like the Jon we've come to know in the series-Kit has beautiful black hair and amazing brown eyes, but is quite different from book.Jon) has dark brown hair (so maybe a mix between Lya and Rhaegar's hair?) and eyes so dark they were almost black (so possibly a mixtue between grey and dark, deep purple). And finally, Jon had to be different from Targaryens. Had he had silver hair and lilac eyes, everyone would have known he wasn't Ned's son. There is a lot of mystery concerning him and of course if he truly is Rhaegar's son, then he has to bear some of his features but they must be well hidden.

Now... to the house of the Undying... I was very disappointed when I saw the way they had decided to portray Dany's visions in the series. I wasn't obviously expecting to see everything, but some yes. It would have taken a lot more money and a lot of history telling in the previous episodes to portray them in the exact same way, but... the blue rose growing on an ice wall... I don't think that would have added that much money to the production budget. Instead they showed us a series of very beautiful but quite confusing visions which lead to nowhere. In my most humble opinion, the Drogo scene was just a way to get Jason Momoa back in an episode because young girls seem to take a liking to him. The irone throne room instead was visually stunning but again lacked a true meaning. In the book, all the visions have a hidden meaning and you slowly discover it through the books, whilst this one was just... snow. Could they have been hinting to Jon? Or maybe to a possible future for Westeros where the others take over everything? We don't know and I wouldn't try to seek a meaning or symbolism in them :)

[ParadiseSeeker]

Okay, sorry for bringing it up again and thanks for clearing things up for me! :)

We just have to wait and see. :)

[FrozenFire3]

Okay, sorry for bringing it up again and thanks for clearing things up for me! :)

We just have to wait and see. :)

No problem! And don't worry, a lot of "old" theories are brought up every now and again because some of us simply thought/discovered something new... you'll see!

[rmholt]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, so please, apologize my mistakes in english and be kind to me :)

I like this L+R=J theory, all the pieces seem to fall into place and I just kinda want a great fate for Jon.

I am sorry if this has been discused before, I really didn't read through all of the Jon material here: There's just one thing that always comes into my mind - I wouldn't even notice these things, but after all the "Seed is strong"...- if jon is Rhaegar's son, he should look like Targ. Every Targ in the books we know had those long silverblond hair. And we have a proof that Stark genes aren't that strong, considering that most of Ned's children look Tully way (and with how we know Cat's character,I think we can be sure they really are Ned's). So how come that suddenly Stark gene was stronger than Targ's?

And one more thing I noticed (again, sorry if it was brought up before): in the series (I realize that the books are much more reliable source), we can see that Dany's visit in House of Undying is farely different than in books. But GRRM still is a part of the creative team and has a big say in it, and I think when they said him "We don't have money and technique for all that, too many characters also, woud be confusing for non-readers..." he said "okay, but there's a message I need to send, cause it will be important later."

GRRM doesnt have any control or say over the series except to collect the truckloads of money that come to him. He put his faith in a good team. He has written one episode per season so far but he has to follow the series. He has to watch for the "butterfly effect" of any changes, such as killing off an apparently minor character who later is needed. My interpretation of his words in several interviews.

He is not being a geneticist, a weather expert, or materials scientist in this series. If you analyze the science too closely things dont always make sense at the edges.

The Daynes also have purple eyes and others have the silver blond hair. The only one that comes to mind right now is a Velaryon - a family also from valyria. The Targs are the only Valyrians who got out with dragons but that doesnt mean other Valyrian lines didnt escape the Doom.

[butterbumps!]

butterbumps!, I like this scenario and have played through similar ones in my mind, but you need a build up for Arthur Dayne to be influenced in that way by Howland in such a short time, I think. Maybe Lyanna prepared him.

The other thing is, what would Howland know about things we only learned from Jaime. It didn´t seem to be common (or at least certain) knowledge that Aerys raped Rhaella after every time he burned someone.

I still prefer the thought that Howland called for a truce and the King´s Guard and Ned found a very painfull way to keep Rhaegar´s and Lyanna´s secret of world altering (saving?) importance, which lead to Ned thinking of his companions as wraiths and regretting giving the promise to Lyanna before the misery it caused even became really miserable. Again I think Duncan´s solution in the "Sworn Sword" is a possible pattern a modified version of which could have solved the conflict at the Tower of Joy.

I honestly think that, if cleaning his honor was all Dayne cared about, it's much more likely he would do his best to survive that fight and fulfill his vows than simply commit suicide. As many of you have said, his duty wasn't simply to protect Jon (if that was the case, no need for any fights after all), but also to protect his rights to the throne, his duty was to the dynasty. I'm not even mentioning the possibility he approved Rhaegar's plans for a coup or whatever that was (though I'm nearly certain that was the case), but there would be no honor in giving up the fight simply because he didn't do anything against Aerys - wouldn't it make more sense to compensate his inaction back then by ensuring that baby would be an honorable man, a good king, everything Aerys wasn't? Not to mention it would invalidate all his prior struggle, everything he and his sworn brothers who died before his at the ToJ had fought for.

I just don't buy it.

In terms of the "falling on his sword" idea, I was thinking that there was a kind of understanding that Dayne, HR and Ned came to-- that it wasn't simply about Howland stepping forward and giving a lecture on honor out of the blue or anything. I was thinking that HR came forward to ask for a run-down of everything that transpired- the truth about Ned's family, what happened with Rhaeger and Lyanna in the interim, etc. In my imagination, I'd wondered if during this conversation Howland interrogated Dayne's honor after hearing the full story, and this is the point that Dayne has a change of heart. I hadn't thought seppuku as much as a Qhorin Halfhand-esque scenario, but I could see either in this circumstance.

I think that my big investment in this idea has more to do with the significance of the KotLT, how the notion of passing on honor would be continued by Howland. Something about this appeals to me greatly, though, on a level of subtext or thematic resolution, and I don't pretend to read any of it as "evidence" or anything.

It's probably a conversation for another thread, but I'd thought that the KG were greatly troubled by their vow to "stand by," and some came to regret doing so (Jaime, Barristan). I admit that I personally have some fringe beliefs about the culpability of the KG who allowed the atrocities to occur, and I think it might make sense that Dayne came to realize this as well- that "protecting the king" is not the greatest form of honor for a knight, but rather protecting those who cannot protect themselves. I don't think it's such a stretch that Dayne may have put down his sword once he saw that the best form of protection was more subtle than that which the KG could offer; I think residual guilt could be a factor as well.

[corbon]

Well it would be unprecedented for a guy at war to go off without any escort at all. even Littlefinger had a few hundred men.

He didn't. He went off to war with a host, ended the war, then disappeared with a small group of his mosted trusted friends on a personal mission.

He had a host at Storms End and things happened at T o J that one or two men couldnt do

Nope, not one thing a few people with a dozen or more horses couldn't do. Plus any servants etc that were at ToJ. Dug 8 graves, pulled down a probably small 'tower' and use the stones to build 8 cairns.

who is the "they" that found him with Lyanna - did HR have a mouse in his pocket?

If Lyanna was pregnant, due to give birth, there would almost certainly be a midwife/Maester, probably also a wetnurse-in-waiting (Wylla) and probably at least one servant for housekeeping, cooking, washing clothes etc. Probably not many extra people, but we actually only need one for 'they' (+HR of course).

And why would he send the host away - seems like a dumb idea. I'd like to hear a reason he DIDNT have a host with him.

Been covered many times before.

Ned's looking for Lyanna. He knows she didn't want to marry Robert, must suspect, perhaps even know, that she went off with Rhaegar voluntarily and all that implies. So he may be having to choose between what Lyanna wants and what Robert wants after he finds her. He handpicks only his most trusted close firends - men loyal to him over King Robert.

Taking the host is what would be a dumb idea.

Already addressed the single combat thing, or even the 3 on 7 thing. That does not require the absence of other fighters as seen in the Trident and the last battle of the War of he Ninepenny Kings. Even The Smiling Knight was not alone when he and Arthur Dayne squared off. So there are 3 examples of single combat between the big cheeses while lesser fighters dealt with one another.

Does not require the absence of other fighters. But we are given a specific scenario, which makes complete sense. Changing the given scenario not only deviates from the text (which is possible, since we don't necessarily always see everything) but actually introduces problems.

IMO the issues here are readers not thinking things through. The ToJ scenario as presented works perfectly well. Readers miss things, or don't understand things, and create issues which don't exist - like not bringing the host = dumb, when actually bringing the host = dumb because the host means he can't prevent King Robert from finding out everything that happens.

And the single combat idea - thats what Ned's young troopers gossip. They have no idea what happened at all. All they know is that Ned returned Dawn to the Daynes. So of course they speculate that their beloved young lord slew the greatest knight there ever was in single combat. Thats what young troopers do.

But Sansa's recollection kills that dead. If Brinze Yohn Royce could kick Ned+Rodrik's ass together, Arthur Dayne is going to kick Ned's ass one-on-one from one end of the continent to the other.

But in a 7 on 3 melee, anything can happen.

[rmholt]

He didn't. He went off to war with a host, ended the war, then disappeared with a small group of his mosted trusted friends on a personal mission.

Nope, not one thing a few people with a dozen or more horses couldn't do. Plus any servants etc that were at ToJ. Dug 8 graves, pulled down a probably small 'tower' and use the stones to build 8 cairns.

If Lyanna was pregnant, due to give birth, there would almost certainly be a midwife/Maester, probably also a wetnurse-in-waiting (Wylla) and probably at least one servant for housekeeping, cooking, washing clothes etc. Probably not many extra people, but we actually only need one for 'they' (+HR of course).

Been covered many times before.

Ned's looking for Lyanna. He knows she didn't want to marry Robert, must suspect, perhaps even know, that she went off with Rhaegar voluntarily and all that implies. So he may be having to choose between what Lyanna wants and what Robert wants after he finds her. He handpicks only his most trusted close firends - men loyal to him over King Robert.

Taking the host is what would be a dumb idea.

Does not require the absence of other fighters. But we are given a specific scenario, which makes complete sense. Changing the given scenario not only deviates from the text (which is possible, since we don't necessarily always see everything) but actually introduces problems.

IMO the issues here are readers not thinking things through. The ToJ scenario as presented works perfectly well. Readers miss things, or don't understand things, and create issues which don't exist - like not bringing the host = dumb, when actually bringing the host = dumb because the host means he can't prevent King Robert from finding out everything that happens.

And the single combat idea - thats what Ned's young troopers gossip. They have no idea what happened at all. All they know is that Ned returned Dawn to the Daynes. So of course they speculate that their beloved young lord slew the greatest knight there ever was in single combat. Thats what young troopers do.

But Sansa's recollection kills that dead. If Brinze Yohn Royce could kick Ned+Rodrik's ass together, Arthur Dayne is going to kick Ned's ass one-on-one from one end of the continent to the other.

But in a 7 on 3 melee, anything can happen.

WHo are the "they" who found Ned with Lyanna? WE need more than HR. Perhaps it is as you say, but if so, they popped into the scene as if teleported.

Some people think it is not possible for Ned to have pulled down the T o J by himself, or even with HR helping, yet it was pulled down. A contigent of Rhaegar's men at T o J would also explain this. I think the confusion with many discussion topics is that we dont get all the info.

[corbon]

WHo are the "they" who found Ned with Lyanna? WE need more than HR. Perhaps it is as you say, but if so, they popped into the scene as if teleported.

No, they are people logically likely to be there, but not part of the limited scene of the fight outside.

Some people think it is not possible for Ned to have pulled down the T o J by himself, or even with HR helping, yet it was pulled down. A contigent of Rhaegar's men at T o J would also explain this. I think the confusion with many discussion topics is that we dont get all the info.

Its an off-the-map tower in the marchlands. There are at least 7, probably more than a dozen horses and at least 2 men, possibly more. The stones make 8 cairns. Anyone thinking "Ned could not possibly have pulled down the ToJ by himself" is far too close-minded.

Think this, unmortared, for example, or this. But probably smaller, since the stones only made 8 cairms.

[The guy from the Vale]

@corbon: agreed - and not only were the men Ned brought with him loyal to Ned, at least some of them (Howland Reed in particular) were probably even more loyal to Lyanna. Reed was indebted to Lyanna after all that happened at Harrenhal: She had saved his life there.

[Ygrain]

Hi there ParadiseSeeker and welcome to the forum!! :D

Excellent and interesting points ^_^

As for your theory and doubts on Jon's looks, I have a few things to say... First and foremost the Targaryens we know in the books are all sons and daughters born from a pure line: Dany, Viserys and Rhaegar are the children of Rhaella and her brother Aerys who both had Targaryen features. Rhaenys (Rhaegar's daughter) was said to have had her mother's features, so Martell features. Dark hair and skin. Aegon, as young Griff apparently takes after his father but we are not sure if he truly is Rhaegar's son. The silver hair, pale skin, violet eyes should all be recessive genes so in Aegon's case he should have probably taken after his mother, although of course, as you said, the Stark children have Cat's auburn hair which should be a recessive gene too, compared with Ned's dark hair (but take Arya... she had Ned's looks). So there really isn't a rule. Aegon may have been as different from Rhaenys as anyone. As for Jon, there is no rule that applies for him either. Lyanna had dark hair and grey eyes (Stark looks), Rhaegar had silver hair, and dark violet eyes (unlike Dany and Viserys' which were lilac). Jon (who isn't like the Jon we've come to know in the series-Kit has beautiful black hair and amazing brown eyes, but is quite different from book.Jon) has dark brown hair (so maybe a mix between Lya and Rhaegar's hair?) and eyes so dark they were almost black (so possibly a mixtue between grey and dark, deep purple). And finally, Jon had to be different from Targaryens. Had he had silver hair and lilac eyes, everyone would have known he wasn't Ned's son. There is a lot of mystery concerning him and of course if he truly is Rhaegar's son, then he has to bear some of his features but they must be well hidden.

Now... to the house of the Undying... I was very disappointed when I saw the way they had decided to portray Dany's visions in the series. I wasn't obviously expecting to see everything, but some yes. It would have taken a lot more money and a lot of history telling in the previous episodes to portray them in the exact same way, but... the blue rose growing on an ice wall... I don't think that would have added that much money to the production budget. Instead they showed us a series of very beautiful but quite confusing visions which lead to nowhere. In my most humble opinion, the Drogo scene was just a way to get Jason Momoa back in an episode because young girls seem to take a liking to him. The irone throne room instead was visually stunning but again lacked a true meaning. In the book, all the visions have a hidden meaning and you slowly discover it through the books, whilst this one was just... snow. Could they have been hinting to Jon? Or maybe to a possible future for Westeros where the others take over everything? We don't know and I wouldn't try to seek a meaning or symbolism in them :)

Concerning genetics, I'll re-post my comment from another thread:

So far, I haven't seen a pairing that would contradict the simple Mendelian model

Ned and Catelyn:

red - recessive = a; therefore Catelyn = aa

brown - dominant = A; therefore Ned = A?

All it takes is a single red-haired ancestor in Ned's lineage to pass down the recessive gene and make Ned heterozygous Aa. When his genes meet Catelyn's, you have three copies of the recessive gene versus a single dominant entering the lottery, which makes for the combinations aa, aa, aa, Aa - only 1:4 chance that the kid will be dark-haired.

Now, Robert:

black, as has been said above, apparently homozygous dominant = AA

prefers light-haired women, i.e. homozygous recessive = aa

ANY offspring he sires is Aa, therefore black-haired

As for eye colour, light-haired women tend to have light-coloured eyes, therefore, the probability of passing the blue on is still very high.

Rhaegar and Elia are basically the same case as Ned and Catelyn, just with Rhaegar being the homozygous recessive and Elia heterozygous (the recessive gene inherited from her Targ ancestors). Rhaenys inherits the dominant gene from her and looks Dornish (heterozygous, Aa), Aegon inherits the recessive gene and looks Targ (homozygous recessive, aa)

Unlike the RL genetics, this does not require any profound knowledge, merely that of the basic principles of dominant-recessive mechanism and possible outcomes of homozygous/heterozygous parents.

He is not being a geneticist, a weather expert, or materials scientist in this series. If you analyze the science too closely things dont always make sense at the edges.

I'm not a geneticist, either, all it takes is high-school biology and a little interest. RL genetics is way more complicated, but for the sake of the story, this simplified model can work quite fine. And, I fully expect every author dabbling in something they are not expert at to do their homework and research it at least a little, or consult it with someone knowledgeable.

WHo are the "they" who found Ned with Lyanna? WE need more than HR. Perhaps it is as you say, but if so, they popped into the scene as if teleported.

Some people think it is not possible for Ned to have pulled down the T o J by himself, or even with HR helping, yet it was pulled down. A contigent of Rhaegar's men at T o J would also explain this. I think the confusion with many discussion topics is that we dont get all the info.

A perfectly reasonable explanation I read on these forums is setting the tower afire. It will crumble on its own for the better part and all you have to do is wait for the stones to cool down. No army needed. If Ned did send for the army, it would have been only after removing all traces of Lyanna's pregnancy.

[Zupoleon]

rmholt, on 22 August 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

WHo are the "they" who found Ned with Lyanna? WE need more than HR. Perhaps it is as you say, but if so, they popped into the scene as if teleported.

No, they are people logically likely to be there, but not part of the limited scene of the fight outside.

Exactly. I find it illogical that Rhaegar or the Kingsguard would expect Lyanna to give birth all by her lonesome. As mentioned, the "they" only requires 1 more person in addition to Howland. It's safe to say that AT LEAST there would've been a midwife there to assist in the birth, and day to day tasks. Personally, I don't think Rhaegar would've brought an entourage with him (cooks, maester, etc...) A midwife (Wylla?) could easily have done everything required for such a small group (Rhaegar, Lyanna, 3 Kinsguard knights), while ensuring at the same time that as few people as possible knew about their whereabouts...