From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XI

[brashcandy]

i've always liked doran and been intrigued by what exactly happened between him and mellario, but we can all agree that he is indeed a wise ruler and very smart and knows how to play the game. he shares with Sansa the gift of patience and i recall Oberyn telling tyrion that someone said it was a good thing Doran had been the firstborn and thus the ruler of dorne, because if oberyn had been born before...

Well I don't quite share your admiration for Doran, but it's a fact that he's still alive :) The major difference with Sansa is that she's not a vengeful person - she does not sit and meditate on the wrongs done to her family and slowly plot vengeance. The Martell family is a good illustration of how the need for revenge can often be detrimental and futile unless one is willing/able to strike immediately.

[Snowborn]

Sansa fans! The elimination game keeps going, so if you're still around, head towards Forum Games and help our favorite lady become the Greatest Female Character! :)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/73371-asoif-elimination-game-22-greatest-female-character-final/page__st__1660

[King Euron Swagjoy]

The game is over. Sansa has lost. :frown5:

[Valkyrja]

The game is over. Sansa has lost. :frown5:

At least she still is still alive and has a chance to become a player in the books! ;)

[Kittykatknits]

The game is over. Sansa has lost. :frown5:

Well, I take it as a great positive that she lasted as long as she did. :) Especially, as she's been voted one of the worst people in Westeros. So, I'll do a little victory dance.

ETA: And by victory dance,,,I mean sit here and eat some cookies.

[Caro99]

Well I don't quite share your admiration for Doran, but it's a fact that he's still alive :) The major difference with Sansa is that she's not a vengeful person - she does not sit and meditate on the wrongs done to her family and slowly plot vengeance. The Martell family is a good illustration of how the need for revenge can often be detrimental and futile unless one is willing/able to strike immediately.

I don't know why, but doran and balon greyjoy are just two characters which i am weirdly drawn to in a way :P but you're right Brash, i cannot see Sansa hatching up revenge for years and years against the lannisters, so i guess that's not only a major diffrence but a good thing too :) oh and you also made me come up with another thing in which i hope sansa doesn't resemble doran: Doran was first and foremost the prince of dorne and i think his role as a dad and husband came after that, but we know Sansa wouldn't do that...

[Kittykatknits]

I don't know why, but doran and balon greyjoy are just two characters which i am weirdly drawn to in a way :P but you're right Brash, i cannot see Sansa hatching up revenge for years and years against the lannisters, so i guess that's not only a major diffrence but a good thing too :) oh and you also made me come up with another thing in which i hope sansa doesn't resemble doran: Doran was first and foremost the prince of dorne and i think his role as a dad and husband came after that, but we know Sansa wouldn't do that...

I agree. Also, isn't one of the reasons that his wife left him is because of some of his plans with their children? I'm thinking of his decision to foster out Quentyn specifically, a big difference between him and Ned who chose to keep his sons at home in WF. Or, am I making this up?

[Ragnorak]

brashcandy got me thinking about Sansa's marriage to Harry the Heir and whether or not it has parallels to Lyanna and Robert.

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

HtH already has bastard children and Lyanna's ideas on marriage seem very much in line with Sansa's. Given the looks and preference for fighting we typically associate Lyanna with Arya. If Sansa is truly a Stark and of the North might there also be very strong Lyanna parallels to her as well. Lyanna loved music and cried when Rhaegar played which is certainly far more Sansa than Arya. What Sansa/Lyanna parallels are there?

Mya Stone is the bastard Robert had that made Lyanna object to the marriage so there's a connection. Sansa is disguised as Alaynne and Lyanna was diguised as the Knight of the Laughing Tree so there may be potential there.

For pure fun speculation, since Tournaments are considered ideal cover for political intrigue might we see one in the Vale? Might the Knight of the Laughing Tree foreshadow such a Tournament's events? LF is the Lord of Harrenhal and Sansa is his "daughter" and queen of love and beauty. I could see him arranging one for his Sansa/HtH plot. Would we have a mystery knight or maybe an unexpected king show up? LF as Lord of Harrenhal made me think of the possible Tournament connection, but mostly I'm curious about Sansa/Lyanna parallels anyone sees.

[jarl the climber]

Well, I take it as a great positive that she lasted as long as she did. :) Especially, as she's been voted one of the worst people in Westeros. So, I'll do a little victory dance.

ETA: And by victory dance,,,I mean sit here and eat some cookies.

Are they lemon cookies?

[Caro99]

I agree. Also, isn't one of the reasons that his wife left him is because of some of his plans with their children? I'm thinking of his decision to foster out Quentyn specifically, a big difference between him and Ned who chose to keep his sons at home in WF. Or, am I making this up?

No, you're correct. And when his secret alliance with Ser Darry had just been made he also meant for arianne to go to Essos as a cup-bearer in disguise so she could see Viserys, but then Mellario threatened to kill herself if Doran stole another one of her children, so yeah... I can see what you mean comparing him to Ned.

Oh and Ragonark, i can definately see LF hosting a tournament at the Gates of the Moon with the purpose of HtH meeting Alayne officially or something... I hope that the news of the tournament reach the QI and a certain gravedigger's ears just for the fun of crackpot.

But it's intresting to imagine that though Lyanna and Arya are said to look alike, if we look carefully there are similarites between Sansa and her aunt. She certainly reminds me of Sansa when she was younger, but i wonder if Sansa, who had matured and evolved, would run away as well either from LF or with Brienne/Jaime/Sandor. As long as the outcome isn't as bad as with Lyanna/Rhaegar, i'm happy :)

[Kittykatknits]

Are they lemon cookies?

Lol, no. I can't say I share this with Sansa. I only do chocolate.

[Valkyrja]

Lol, no. I can't say I share this with Sansa. I only do chocolate.

I must say, I agree with you on the chocolate thing. Nothing beats chocolate. ;) That said, I was never into lemon-y desserts.....until Sansa become one of my favourite characters, that is. Now, I eat lemony treats (most recent favourite has been lemon macarones) whenever I can.....in her honour of course! :D

[brashcandy]

Another chocolate lovah here folks :)

@Ragnorak - outside of Lyanna and Sansa both displaying a sensitivity towards songs and touching scenes, I can't think of any other definite parallels, but I do think that this one is notable and meaningful enough considering Lyanna's eventual fate. It is in the Vale that we've seen Sansa taking on her most traditionally heroic role to date - getting SR down the Mountain and calming her own fears, so whilst she will by no means embody the kind of wildness Lyanna represented, they do share similar attributes of defending the weak.

I hope there is a tourney! But who would win? Perhaps Lothor Brune would enter, defeat HtH, and crown Mya queen of love and beauty? :)

[Lady Lea]

Damn I forgot to go back to the game.

I blame Winter's Knight for introducing me to this and distracting me

[Harlaw's Book]

brashcandy got me thinking about Sansa's marriage to Harry the Heir and whether or not it has parallels to Lyanna and Robert.

What Sansa/Lyanna parallels are there?

I would not be surprised if Sansa, Harry the Heir, and YG/Aegon are going to star in Robert's Rebellion the sequel.

[childofsummer]

So many people have died that it seems like a tourney would be sparsely attended. Besides, isn't the Vale nearly inaccessible now, due to the weather and the armed clans? Do you think LF might lean toward a ball* for the Vale insiders instead, since Sansa likes to dance so much?

I like the Sansa/Lyanna parallel angle. The clearest similarity to me is their apparently shared tendency to speak or act without thinking (or maybe to be so overcome by emotion or conviction that they can't help speaking or acting). Sansa just couldn't not speak up when Joffrey was about to drown Dontos, or when she said that maybe Robb would have Joffrey's head. We don't have the POV advantage with Lyanna, or even much first-hand observation of her actions, but it seems like she acted in the same sort of way in defending Howland Reed.

*Disclaimer: I've been reading Jane Austen lately, so that might be coloring my perception. Now, back to my Nutella...*

[Lady Lea]

Hey so I have a small question but instead of going to the Small Questions thread I thought I'd just ask the experts :D

Who was Sansa's first kiss? Was is Joff?

[brashcandy]

Hey so I have a small question but instead of going to the Small Questions thread I thought I'd just ask the experts :D

Who was Sansa's first kiss? Was is Joff?

Nope, that would be Sandor, according to Sansa :)

[Queen Cersei I]

Queen Cersei I did an awesome post (or series of posts) constructing Sansa's arc (and Cersei's) as a series of humiliations and suffering earned for showing "feminine pride," or basically for wanting what her beauty/station deserved, either more than what she was offered or more than her patriarch dictated she should have. It was amazing and also depressing, as it made me realize by the end of AFFC just how worn down Sansa is.

Thanks for the compliment, however, I fear you are misreading my analysis here. In the past I’ve taken issue with the author’s attitude towards and treatment of Sansa WRT certain issues. The inordinate amount of demonization of her going against her patriarch in book one; the strange way he appears to encourage readers to feel contempt for Sansa in book one for holding opinions that numerous male characters (including his avatar)get away with holding without an ounce of criticism; the way he seems to portray Arya in AGOT as the “good” counterpart to “girly” Sansa; his tendency to portray her conventionally feminine concerns as shallow, silly, and innately less interesting than the respected conventionally male concerns of characters like Arya, Asha, and Brienne; the way that he manipulates readers to feel as much (perhaps even more) sympathy for Tyrion during his marriage to Sansa, which he himself forced her into; the way all her later punishments can sometimes seem like Sansa “learning her lesson” after her unthinkable betrayal of her father in book one-- all these issues are disturbing for me.

Yet taking issues with the author’s treatment of a character does not mean denigrating themself. I have at times been disturbed by how GRRM presented Sansa and his apparent attitude towards her specifically feminine pride; but I have never believed that Sansa is defeated, broken down, “beaten down,” ruined, or any less compelling or interesting now than she was at the beginning. Sansa is every bit as interesting now, and continues to struggle to survive and adjust to her environment.

She actually does give in to hateful, vengeful feelings at several points in the book (listed in my post) and she does take pleasure in the suffering of people of who've wronged her, which is schadenfreude. To me, that includes her feelings at Joffrey's death. It may be bitter satisfaction, but it's still satisfaction.


Sansa certainly does “give in to hateful, vengeful feelings” on a few specific occasions. As we all do. Personally, I think this facts make her a far richer, more interesting character than if she were some sort of endlessly forgiving, angelic, Westerosi equivalent of a Jesus figure. I’ve seen many portraits of “perfect goodness” and “perfect innocence” in literature, and overall (with one or two exceptions) they fail to touch me.

They fail to touch me because they contain neither complexity nor verisimilitude. The endlessly forgiving, pure thinking, utterly non judgmental, vaguely perfect literary figures like Ester Summerson may be comforting on behalf of their unthreatening nature, they will never be real or challenging to me. In order to be compelling, I think characters have to do what we, real people, do—suffer, feel, struggle. A character who never feels hatred or thirsts after vengeance would leave most people utterly cold; since such a state is both uninteresting and unrelatable.

Sansa is a compelling character because she feels dark emotions like hatred and fury like anyone else, but refuses to let them run her life. She does indeed fail to “feel for” people suffering on several occasions—she feels no regret when Joffrey dies; she does not pity Cersei over her bereavement; she hopes that Janos Slynt, a morally bankrupt individual who has personally hurt people Sansa loves will come to a bad end. Again, I think these feelings make Sansa human and understandable.

What is remarkable about Sansa, though, is not that she is overcome by righteous wrath on several occasions, but how often she is not overcome by righteous wrath. We see this with Lancel, who mocked and laughed at her torture but whom she still pities; we see this with Tyrion, who forced her into a humiliating and traumatizing marriage, but whom she still feels sorry for at several points; we see this with Lysa Arryn, Sansa’s own aunt who tried to murder her and probably ruined Sansa’s life, but whom Sansa thinks of in AFFC not only without deep hatred, but without any real moral condemnation or judgment.

In general, Sansa is remarkable for two reasons—first, as many people have mentioned, because she does not let vengeance take over her life. She might feel righteous wrath on occasion, but that is different from dedicating one’s life enacting such feelings. Secondly, Sansa is incredibly compassionate and forgiving, and has the ability to feel for people who are suffering, even when such people are less than admirable individuals who have harmed her personally.

In the end, I don’t think Sansa’s lack of sadness over Joffrey’s death indicated that she did not have a compassionate nature. It simply indicated that she was human. If she had proceeded to feel utter, heartfelt sympathy for Joffrey, Cersei, and Janos Slynt, I would have found these actions less compelling and touching, more vaguely unbelievable.

If Sansa were not capable of rage and hatred like the rest of us, her compassion for those who have wronged her would not be as remarkable as it is.

Newstar said:

These areas of her life, as you've described, aren't really lessons, though. I mean, you can look at them that way if you wish--many readers do--but I don't view them that way. It's how Sansa starts off with something she feels and is right to feel and has it taken away from her to the point where she glumly or even happily accepts something she once properly violently rejected (and the same thing with things she once wanted). It's an erosion of her standards, her expectations, her dreams, her hopes, her values, her compassion, her gentleness, her romanticism, quite possibly her morals...everything that makes Sansa herself. It's not triumphant, it's grim and it's sad.

I think you are committing the fallacy of seeing Sansa as purely a victim here, which takes away (IMO) a great deal of the richness and complexity of her character and storyline.

Overall, I don’t think anyone in their right mind would say what has happened to Sansa has been “a good thing.” Well, actually, I have heard quite a few people say that “she was a horrible shallow girl at first who unforgivably betrayed her father, but she’s getting better now that she’s been taught her lesson.” What disturbs me about such comments is that sometimes people seem to actually be implying that Sansa “deserved” or “needed” to be held hostage, stripped, abused, forced into marriage and horrifying sexual situations, witness the murder of her aunt, and be currently in the grips of a creepy pedo who wants to be both her father and her lover.

Personally, I think that Sansa never “deserved” any of this—and I think most posters here would agree with me. Looking at her horrible experiences as needed/ a necessary character improving experience strikes me as a little sick. IMO, Sansa started out just fine—her only flaws—an adherence to some slight social prejudices of her day and a consciousness of birth—seemed minor, and did not really go deep, morally speaking. (For instance, Sansa’s slight snobbery seems to come from a natural distaste for dirt and wildness; and a love for beauty and sophistication. And yet, in book one, she is able to feel real compassion for Sandor Clegane, who is about as uncouth, dirty, and wild as they come. IMO, I’ve never seen this as Sansa having some sort of early crush on the Hound; I always saw her initial sympathy for him being sprung from her innate compassion and understanding of his sufferings. Similarly, she gives lip service that Jon is “lower” than her and her legitimate siblings, but her treatment of him seems like that of a normal sister and brother, despite a concern for titles on her part.) Her “evil betrayal” of her father was the act of an 11-year-old girl acting on limited information, and fearing to be separated with the boy she had fallen in love with. And what are constantly counted as her “flaws” and “shallowness” by Sansa haters—liking cute boys, enjoying conventionally feminine pursuits, liking clothing, etc.—seem utterly harmless and ridiculous reasons for contempt on anyone’s part.

That said, a great many of things happen to Sansa that do change her deeply, as you say. Tragically, she is forced to abandon her many childhood ideals, to learn duplicity, to grow up too fast. That last time she built the snow castle of her childhood home of winterfell, shortly before being threatened by Lysa and witnessing Lysa’s murder, strikes me as the tragic end of her childhood in a lot of ways.

Yet just because Sansa’s been tragically robbed of her childhood and forced to abandon her more whimsical ideals does not make her simply a hopeless victim and nothing else. While I think that she’s been treated horribly and had to grow up and abandon certain qualities/ expectations does not mean she’s “an empty shell.” She continues to think and feel and try to survive and adjust to her environment.

Like all of the Stark children, loss—of former ideals, of family, of security—has been a great part in her storyline. Yet simply calling her a victim/ dead on the inside is a really inaccurate vision of her character.

In short—I agree with you that Sansa “didn’t need to learn a lesson”—morally speaking. Her youthful ideals were totally fine; and I’ve always found it disturbing that people will insist that Sansa started out “bad” and “shallow” and “needed to be taught a lesson”, whilst utterly defending the behavior of Jaime and Tyrion Lannister. However, Sansa has been forced into an environment where she was forced to sink or swim. And it happens that, in her own way, she’s swimming.

As for being depressing, I agree—it’s depressing that Jon S., Arya, Brann, and Sansa all have to lose everything and grow up before their time. But misery is not the only element. There is some ray of hope, even bit of quiet triumph—Sansa is still alive, still trying, still attempting to find ways to survive—and, possibly, ultimately help those around her, like Sweet Robin.

And of course right now is “depressing.” Sansa is in the middle of her story. If this were the end of the series, and Sansa had ended with LF in her current situation, I’d agree that her storyline was unspeakably depressing. But we’re not at the end. We’re in the middle.

Newstar said:

“I understand why many want to have a positive viewpoint of Sansa's arc and want to skip over the disturbing and unpleasant overtones in Sansa's arc and the disquieting hints as to her potential future actions, but it's important to take the good with the bad, and are we agreed at least that there is a lot of "bad" in what is happening to Sansa's soul and what may happen to Sansa's soul? Can we agree that there is some bad, creepy stuff going on with Sansa that she may not be able to handle on her own without rushing to classify her traumas and losses as useful important life lessons and her continually giving up more and more of her hopes/dreams/ambitions/feelings/self in favour of resignation and acceptance as some form of laudable growth or maturity?”

I think there definitely is a potential for corruption in Sansa’s storyline, as there is with Jon, Arya, and so many of the other characters in this series who matter. Sansa is currently living with LF, one of the most morally depraved men in Westeros. She knows that she can’t trust him, yet she knows that she can’t trust anyone else. She is smart enough to realize that her best option is staying with LF, even though LF never “lifted his little finger” to help her. (I also suspect that LF, master of manipulation that he is, managed to make Sansa feel unconsciously guilty for Lysa’s death; and give her the impression that he “did it for her” so that she is indebted to him, basically culpable for Lysa’s death, and responsible for making LF a murderer. Like many abusers, LF uses the subtle chains of dependency, guilt, and brainwashing.)

In such a situation there are many possibilities for corruption. While staying in such close proximity to LF, and being utterly dependent upon him, it is possible that Sansa could opt to do something against her moral code. It is hypothetically possible that, seeing where kindness has gotten her, she might give some consideration to LF;s moral code in her own life. (Of course, I could never, ever see Sansa becoming anywhere near as sociopathic or villainous as LF; but being exposed to LF and seeing how much more profitable in his duplicity is than her truth was, it is possible she could become far more cynical.)

However, personally I find this aspect of Sansa’s journey to be once again highly compelling. I’m not sure how you can claim that Sansa is “broken, ruined,” etc., and then complain that she’s being tempted to do immoral things by LF. Surely, the temptations she’s facing (do the right thing or do the easy thing; risk herself and go out of her way to protect Sweet Robin, a little kid who is annoying, to whom she has no real obligation and who, let’s face it, is annoying in general, and a major liability in a dangerous political environment; or simply let LF go along with what he’s planning—after all, Sweet Robin is already sick, weak, and unhappy.)

This struggle is relevant and compelling, and makes Sansa a very complex and vital and dynamic character.

She is not “beaten down” nor is she “an empty shell.” Not by a long shot.

[Queen of Winter]

Sansa certainly does “give in to hateful, vengeful feelings” on a few specific occasions. As we all do. Personally, I think this facts make her a far richer, more interesting character than if she were some sort of endlessly forgiving, angelic, Westerosi equivalent of a Jesus figure. I’ve seen many portraits of “perfect goodness” and “perfect innocence” in literature, and overall (with one or two exceptions) they fail to touch me.

They fail to touch me because they contain neither complexity nor verisimilitude. The endlessly forgiving, pure thinking, utterly non judgmental, vaguely perfect literary figures like Ester Summerson may be comforting on behalf of their unthreatening nature, they will never be real or challenging to me. In order to be compelling, I think characters have to do what we, real people, do—suffer, feel, struggle. A character who never feels hatred or thirsts after vengeance would leave most people utterly cold; since such a state is both uninteresting and unrelatable.

Sansa is a compelling character because she feels dark emotions like hatred and fury like anyone else, but refuses to let them run her life. She does indeed fail to “feel for” people suffering on several occasions—she feel s no regret when Joffrey dies; she does not pity Cersei over her bereavement; she hopes that Janos Slynt, a morally bankrupt individual who has personally hurt people Sansa loves will come to a bad end. Again, I think these feelings make Sansa human and understandable.

What is remarkable about Sansa, though, is not that she is overcome by righteous wrath on several occasions, but how often she is not overcome by righteous wrath. We see this with Lancel, who mocked and laughed at her torture but whom she still pities; we see this with Tyrion, who forced her into a humiliating and traumatizing marriage, but whom she still feels sorry for at several points; we see this with Lysa Arryn, Sansa’s own aunt who tried to murder her and probably ruined Sansa’s life, but whom Sansa thinks of in AFFC not only without deep hatred, but without any real moral condemnation or judgment.

In general, Sansa is remarkable for two reasons—first, as many people have mentioned, because she does not let vengeance take over her life. She might feel righteous wrath on occasion, but that is different from dedicating one’s life enacting such feelings. Secondly, Sansa is incredibly compassionate and forgiving, and has the ability to feel for people who are suffering, even when such people are less than admirable individuals who have harmed her personally.

In the end, I don’t think Sansa’s lack of sadness over Joffrey’s death indicated that she did not have a compassionate nature. It simply indicated that she was human. If she had proceeded to feel utter, heartfelt sympathy for Joffrey, Cersei, and Janos Slynt, I would have found these actions less compelling and touching, more vaguely unbelievable.

Extremely well said, QCI. Brava! :)

I just want to include these quotes from ACOK, from one of Sansa's chapters, during the Battle of the Blackwater:

"She sang with those inside the castle walls and those without, sang with all the city. She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall. She sang for her mother and her father, for her grandfather Lord Hoster and her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, for old drunken King Robert, for Septa Mordane and SerDontos and Jory Cassel and Maester Luwin, for all the brave knights and soldiers who would die today, and for the child ren and the wives who would mourn them, and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him."

"But when the septon climbed on high and called upon the gods to protect and defend their true and noble king, Sansa got to her feet. The aisles were jammed with people. She had to shoulder through while the septon called upon the Smith to lend strength to Joffrey’s sword and shield, the Warrior to give him courage, the Father to defend him in his need. Let his sword break and his shield shatter, Sansa thought coldly as she shoved out through the doors, let his courage fail him and every man desert him."

EDIT: Forgot to say that if I were Sansa I'd be wishing for a lot more to happen to Joff than just his shield and sword breaking, considering what he did to her family,etc.! :devil: