Learning to Lead V: endings and beginnings. A Daenerys and Jon reread ADWD reread project

[Maia]

I agree with you that it does reflect badly on Jon in a way but I think it reflects even worse on the system of the Night Watch itself. Especially considering that this is the second Lord Commander in a row that they dispatch in similar conditions.

I disagree that conditions are similar. In Mormont's case, his men were traitors to NW and intended to desert and join the wildlings. They murdered him because they thought that it would help them to survive and escape.

In Jon's case, he is the traitor who joins the wildlings and his murderers are sacrificing themselves to do "do what is right" and save NW.

The worst part about the situation at the NW is that is has been going on for centuries now and so many of its men are so used to it it that they will fight to keep it and will direct their resistance to the person or group responsible for the change. The fact that such men are so adamant about defending a flawed system doesn't mean that the system is any less flawed.

I completely disagree with this. IMHO, Jon XIII shows why the laws and customs of NW were necessary and how breaking them could lead to a disaster. Jon wants to completely strip the Wall of it's defenders, just when the situation with the Others has become truly serious, for emotional and personal reasons.

The one thing that was "flawed" was the recruitment policy - and it could have been drastically improved just by sending somewhat impressive and eloquent people, who keep themselves clean and don't have lice as recruiters, as well as really capitalizing on the PR of Benjen and Jon joining .

But, yes, things being as they were, changes were necessary and overdue. As I have mentioned previously, wildlings weren't the only possible solution - NW could have arranged "tours of duty" for the northeners to help them defend the Wall and in fact it is implausible that the lords most affected by the raids - i.e. Umbers, Karstarks, Mountain Clans, etc. didn't propose something along those lines themselves and that they were so apathetic during Mance's attempted invasion.

But OK, by the time Jon makes his decisions, his only short-term option seem to be wildlings and he, rightly, takes it.

But IMHO, his actions in Jon XIII and previously, when he agreed to send out Mance, also show the perils of bending/breaking the laws and customs of NW, as Jon's goals diverge further and further from defending the Wall from the Others, until, like Robb, he is about to strip it of it's defenders and go "in the wrong direction".

I think the bolded part is crucial to understanding the assassination attempt. The way I see it, what you suggest was not possible because there were too few black brothers willing to join Marsh.

Or Marsh expected Jon to use the wildlings to crush any such attempt, as looked likely, in the view of Jon's other plans, like using wildlings against the Boltons.

Well he did do at least something to ameliorate the long-term dangers of bringing the Wildlings south of the Wall. The hostages would provide leverage over the Wildlings, and as they'd grow up they couldn't help but be "indoctriated", for want of a better word, into the NW culture and values.

Not if Jon sent (nearly?) all the CB garrison to Hardhome, as he intended to do. At this point, the remaining wildlings could just pick their children and leave, without anybody to stop them.

And in this case, "long-term" could be a very time. Jon thought he had another 40-50 years as Lord Commander. That's about two generations. Time enough for them to adapt.

Weren't the wildlings supposed to/expected to leave come spring?

Now I certainly don't claim that any of this would be fool-proof. But in the end, I think that Jon could perhaps be forgiven for placing a much higher consideration on short-term gains than potential long-term risks.

Except that then he intends to jeopardize everything he has achieved, by taking the wildlings south.

If he fails, there may very well not be a long-term to worry about. And perhaps the worst case scenario involving the Wildlings running rampant through the Seven Kingdoms was better than what could be expected if he failed to use every possible advantage in defending the Wall from the real enemy.

I dare say that the rampaging wildlings would be just as "real" an enemy to those whom they'd kill and whose food they'd steal, dooming them to death of starvation, as the Others. Dead is dead. And fighting those wildlings could only divert forces and resources from the real threat. So, no, it would not be "better". Jon would just sacrifice the lives of Northmen in favor of the wildlings.

And while there is something to "all he saw were men", IMHO those who actually supported the Wall for millenia have a right to have their interests considered before those who did the opposite.

[Blisscraft]

Great post, Maia!

FIrst, there are always, at least, two sides to betrayal. (Just get involved in a divorce case and you'll fully understand my meaning). Jon has been feeling betrayed by his officers for some time. He complains within his point of view about them during and after every meeting with them. So, we understand his POV. It's far easier to rationalize Jon's choices because know why he's making them. Marsh et al, we are not privy to, except through Jon.

Second, I mentioned destiny in one of my previous post and how it may challenge the efficacy of one's abilities to lead. BB mentioned a parallel between Jesus and Jon. I disagree with the context in which BB mentioned the parallel, mostly because BB focused upon Judas. Judas did not kill Jesus. Judas betrayed Jesus to the Romans and the Romans, after a trial, executed Jesus. Execution is entirely different from assassination. In that regard, what happens to Jon is more parallel to Caesar than to Jesus. Jon's assassination springs from a conspiracy between his own men to save the Watch from Jon's betrayal. I do not disagree with a parallel between Jon and Jesus in that Jon's destiny is not as a leader of the NW or King of the Wildings. It is something else which remains to be seen.

Finally, Jon's choice has consequences. The chief among those consequences is that by making his choice he refuses his calling, his destiny. He must remain at the Wall. To go South, now, is to deny his destiny. When one refuses his/her calling the consequences can be dire. (So to speak). One generally winds up in the belly of a beast or lost in a wilderness until the lesson is learned, the proper focus is created, and a transformation occurs that re-establishes our hero on the "correct" path.

[Chaircat Meow]

In my opinion, even if shenanigans were afoot in the last chapter, the fact an assassination attempt is perfectly explicable and understandable, in the context of the chapter, means Jon’s leadership is eminently poor by the end and, TBH, was never that good throughout.

Maia, Blisscraft and The Lost Lord have already made lots of the points I’d like to make, so apologies if I repeat too closely what anyone else has said.

My main problem with Jon is that in one sense I don’t think he even understands how to lead at all. The basis of his authority in the NW is his possession of the office of Lord Commander, the traditional elected leader of the brotherhood. He has no personal following, no body of like minded men, or men who owe their promotions or positions to him, to call on, if his purely institutional authority frays. Jon knows that his wildling policy is seen, rightly or wrongly, as contrary to the purpose of the NW and that, his latter actions at the very least, can and will be viewed as a flagrant abuse of the authority given the LC of the NW. Given this, it’s quite a testimony to his methods of leadership that he never tries to take any members of the NW into his confidence, or tries to persuade them of the merits of his policy. He never thinks to introduce other, more supportive advisers to what passes for his council, to balance out Marsh, Yarwyck and Cellador (why the hell is Cellador even asked along). He never seems to ask for advice from or even correspond much with his two senior commanders at Eastwatch and the Shadowtower, Cotter Pyke and Ser Denys Mallister, both of whom, from the little we see of them in this book, and in SoS, probably dislike lots of Jon’s policies. He doesn’t even seem to get a say in Cotter’s replacement at Eastwatch, reflecting that Glendon Hewett, a Slynt crony, is not the man he would have chosen. The very few men who do surround him, who probably do owe him an allegiance over and above the respect due to the LC, are Satin and Leathers, both pretty unimportant in the NW pecking order. Whenever he does argue with Marsh and Yarwyck, despite feeling, rightly (imo) that they are pretty unhelpful and unimaginative, he is generally rigid and inflexible and makes no compromises at all, when he should at least have tried doing this one or twice, in the hope of smoothing relations. We never find out what most of the NW thinks about Jon at all, principally because he never seeks to find out. The only time we do hear of a split in their ranks about a strategy is over the question of whether to continue dispatching patrols, where the builders and stewards incline to Marsh and the rangers to Jon (if they didn’t they actually wouldn’t have a job, even though their advice does seem to be the best). And this takes place before all the really controversial decisions.

Even when it comes to the wildlings, Tormund seems the only man with whom Jon enjoys much of a personal connection. I do wonder how the wildling relocation would have gone down if it had been anybody but Tormund at the helm.

In sum though, Jon’s very good at gathering information on his own, for instance, learning from Wun Wun, reading in the library, conducting experiments on the corpses, but he’s pretty terrible at getting the best out of his own men in terms of advice and support. I don’t think he should sack Marsh and Yarwyck and replace them with ‘yes’ men, but there is a difference between packing all important positions with cronies and not doing anything to ensure you have some officers and advisors who go beyond giving you a grudging obedience, purely out of respect for your office.

There are two big consequences to this. The first is that Jon has no one he trusts to plan and consider his ideas with. I think by the end of the book this flaw in his leadership is showing through pretty clearly when he’s decided to relieve Hardhome, seemingly without anyone to challenge him in a constructive way on the idea’s merits, or give him decent guidance about how to compose the ranging. Secondly, and more crucially, once he’s clearly seen to step over the bounds of his duty as LC, or at least, the way his men are likely perceive those bounds, his authority is finished. He’s persuaded nobody, can count on nobody and has probably divided the watch. How will Ser Denys and Glendon Hewett react when they hear about the goings on at Castle Black for instance? Will they really condemn Bowen and Yarwyck if they find out what Jon announced he was planning to do? Even worse, each of those commanders is in possession of wildling hostages and could well feel compelled to try and stop the expedition to the south, meaning war between Castle Black wildlings and the two remaining NW castles. Even if that doesn’t happen, it’s an eventuality any leader who was remotely clued up on the necessity to ensure compliance with his wishes when they were liable to be controversial and opposed to inherited institutional limits, would have thought of. That Jon clearly didn’t do this speaks volumes about the kind of leadership he provides.

In truth, I think Jon might be a decent LC if he didn’t have to deal with the fact many of his men (including his own cook) perceive his actions as opposed to the purpose of his own office. He is, after all, a loner, willing it’s true to accept advice when offered, but someone who doesn’t go and seek it out, or cultivate relationships to procure it, and enhance his authority. He depends on being able to give orders without explanation, which would be fine if his policies didn’t suggest to his men that he was breaking the laws, customs and oaths of the organisation he was elected to lead. And that’s just the wrong way to lead if you a revolutionary. Very very wrong.

In addition to this, I think a lot of Jon’s decisions, often perceived as very farsighted, or as making sound strategic sense, are really about dressing up actions Jon wants to take anyway in the language of military necessity. The famous ‘save the wildlings – rid ourselves of the wights’ equation Jon lays out is used astonishingly infrequently (I thought only once actually, but I could be wrong), to such a degree that I can only conclude it’s not Jon’s main motivation for his polices, nor at the forefront of his mind when he makes them. As someone pointed out, the conversation with Selyse about this is framed expressly as a humanitarian concern on Jon’s part, and demonstrates his refusal above all to sacrifice innocent life.

I also don’t think he has really thought through the mechanics of fighting the Others that much. Surely, the first thing to notice about the Others is that they do seem quite capable of destroying even well defended NW forces almost at whim if they want to, the battle on the Fist being the prime example (every indication suggests the NW will do no better now than it did then). Curiously, most of the time the Others allow bands of humans to roam without any massed attacks, but they are capable of making them when it suits them it seems. Moreover, Jon does know wights at least are surrounding HH so it looks like the Others are there in force. You could just as easily see the HH mission as the LC offering the ancient enemy his throat rather than as a daring attempt to deprive them of an army. Afterall, if you assume the Others do think about military matters in the same way humans do, you would assume they would harass and attack the column over all those long miles to HH and back, to prevent the loss of all those potential wights. Having witnessed what they can do before, surely no sane person would actually attempt this. It’s being risked, I think, on the assumption there will not be a repeat of the Fist of the First Men attack, but it’s just wishful thinking to assume that is a given. Jon’s thinking here is actually based around disregarding a lot of information he does know about the enemy, as much as he does sometimes make use of what he does know.

Overall, I think Jon doesn’t grasp the basis of his power and authority in the NW. Even though he is wary of Marsh and Yarwck he deliberately never finds out how large their followings are (half of CB wanted to seal the gates, if that is any indication) and still thinks he can send the NW on a potentially suicidal mission, having already stranded his fleet, while at the same time announcing that he will be (in the eyes of many), deserting and taking part in the affairs of the realm. He doesn’t do anything to be sure of the loyalty of Eastwatch and the Shadowtower before pulling off his risky stunt in the shieldhall. His wildling re-location gets him plaudits, but wildlings, as we know, follow the man, and Tormund deserves just as much credit as Jon does for this imo. Tormund will keep his word I think and won’t take advantage of any opportunities (like the one created by the HH expedition) to free the hostages (or even kidnap Jon, a pretty good way to get your hostages back if you ask me) but the Weeper or the leaders with MW could be more devious. Given that it seems Jon’s achievements get an unmerited good press. Finally, yeah, Jon’s interest in rescuing wildlings isn’t all based on some great military insight and he frequently indulges in wishful thinking when planning his campaigns. He’s certainly an impressive, insightful and commanding figure (almost ludicrously so given he’s still only 16) but I wouldn’t call his leadership good. I’ll also just point out his extreme lack of self awareness, this is the man who argues he can be trusted to kill child hostages as young as eight and thinks, in self-assurance, ask Janos Slynt. Jon’s ideas might be good, some of the time, but he is the wrong person to implement them.

Edited because I can't spell.

[Chaircat Meow]

The one thing that was "flawed" was the recruitment policy - and it could have been drastically improved just by sending somewhat impressive and eloquent people who keep themselves clean and don't have lice as recruiters, as well as really capitalizing on the PR of Benjen and Jon joining .

Your whole post was awesome, but this was my favourite bit.

[Winterfellian]

I disagree that conditions are similar. In Mormont's case, his men were traitors to NW and intended to desert and join the wildlings. They murdered him because they thought that it would help them to survive and escape.

In Jon's case, he is the traitor who joins the wildlings and his murderers are sacrificing themselves to do "do what is right" and save NW.

I completely disagree with this. IMHO, Jon XIII shows why the laws and customs of NW were necessary and how breaking them could lead to a disaster. Jon wants to completely strip the Wall of it's defendants just when the situation with the Others has become truly serious, for emotional and personal reasons.

The one thing that was "flawed" was the recruitment policy - and it could have been drastically improved just by sending somewhat impressive and eloquent people who keep themselves clean and don't have lice as recruiters, as well as really capitalizing on the PR of Benjen and Jon joining .

But, yes, things being as they were, changes were necessary and overdue. As I have mentioned previously, wildlings weren't the only possible solution - NW could have arranged "tours of duty" for the northeners to help them defend the Wall and in fact it is implausible that the lords most affected by the raids - i.e. Umbers, Karstarks, Mountain Clans, etc. didn't propose something along those lines themselves and that they were so apathetic during Mance's attempted invasion.

But OK, by the time Jon makes his decisions, his only short-term option seem to be wildlings and he, rightly, takes it. But IMHO, his actions in Jon XIII and previously, when he agreed to send out Mance, also show the perils of bending/breaking the laws and customs of NW, as Jon's goals diverge further and further from defending the Wall from the Others, until, like Robb, he is about to strip it of it's defendants and go "in the wrong direction".

I should have made this much clearer. I don't think the conspirators in both case have the same motivations even thought to a certain extent they are both driven by a similar premise that they are om the right. Chett and his group view the conditions in the ranging as fatal the same as Marsh view Jon's decisions as so. But what what kind of system is this where you disagreed with the person leading you and the solution is to kill him? Jon isn't an isolated incident. Is the second time in a row that members of the NW assasinate their leader because of difference of opinions. Is there no other wa to deal with this kind of situation? Something is wronge there.

I agree about Jon paying the price for breaking the NW laws and customs. However, given the restrictions those same rules reflected it is no guarantee that they will provide Jon and the NW the conditions necessary for "protecting the realms of men" which is their main focus.

Let me put it this way, the NW has been operating by these laws and customs for centuries now. Do you think they were better prepared to face the Others and the wildings combined at the beggining of AGOT after following this system for so long? I don't think so. In fact they got their better assets only when Jon started bending the rules to acomodate them in his plans to guard the realms of men.

You mantain that is the recruitment policy that is flawed and not the entire system in itself, but the way I see it if the persons running and operating the NW system are the wrong ones then the system is inherently flawed no matter how perfect it might be in theory. You can device the most perfect, flawless and utopic ruling system on earth but throw in a few good and able people to run it over a bunch of thieves, rapers, murderers, etc. which is what the NW has become and the system will go downhill and crash no matter if it functioned well on paper.

I do like your idea for a new recruiting policy but there's no guarantee this would have worked, given that the realm was on war. Even if they started this program before the war, people didn't take the NW serious anymore. You mentioned Benjen Stark. Well he made the trip to WF to address Robert in person about the situation of the NW. Did this brough any changes? No. Tyrion saw for himself the precarious conditons in which the Watch worked and didn't do anything about it when he had the power of th Iron Throne at his disposal. Even if this work there is no way Jon coulkd have pulled it off with given how the situation was when he assumen command. His best chances were the wildings, which bring me to...

I don't think we'll ever agree about the widings so am just going to repeat my posture that they were not brought south just because the NW needed men to defend the wall but because every single men, woman or child left North of the wall was condemned to die and return as a wight to attack the NW. It wasn't just a humanitarian effort. Bringing them in had the double benefit of providing recruits but also of preventing the increase of wigths and thus potentially decimating the force of The Others. Even if the NW had been better manned if they wanted to reduce the number of wights they meant to fight the wildings would have had to been brought into the realm anyway.

[butterbumps!]

Dany X

Overview

Dany has spent the better part of the morning climbing down the “stone island” Drogon has made his home. As she makes her way toward a stream she’d spied from the pillar, memories flood her mind. She eats berries and grows sicker. Dehydrated and feeling weak, she continues toward Meereen walking along the stream, her thoughts growing increasingly feverish. After a close run-in with a Dothraki scout, Drogon swoops down and she rides once more, after the Dothraki. Back on ground, Khal Jhaqo find her squatting and eating Drogon’s fresh kill in the grass.

Observations

• “A Dragon’s first instinct is always to attack.”
  
• Valyrian dragonlords controlled their mounts with binding spells and sorcerous horns.
  
• During her walk, she sees Drogon fly overhead a few times. Is he purposely following her as a protector, or is this incidental?
  

Analysis

“If I look back, I’m lost”

Dany says this twice over the course of this chapter. Though she says this, her thoughts are monopolized by thoughts of the past; she is, in fact, looking back and taking inventory. She contemplates what being “lost” truly means: the overwhelming desire to retreat into a happier time versus the need to move forward and live without regret, and her past reluctance to accept her dragon identity and perform the task that she “knows” she must do.

Dany has lived with a critical fear of looking back. I can’t help but think of Lot’s wife, who was instructed to not look back upon Sodom when fleeing its destruction. Upon looking back, she became a pillar of salt. Interestingly, Dany is walking back toward her “Sodom” (Meereen), but thinks of the stone pillar as the place she must not look back to. I get an Orpheus vibe from this as well, but again with a twist. Drogon’s pillar is her Eurydice, and if she looks back she fears that she will be drawn back into that immobile pillar.

“Dany knew the lure of home.”

Dany names Drogon’s pillar Dragonstone, and thinks that though she has no memory of her birthplace, she will never forget this one. But it was Drogon’s home, not hers: “And no matter how far the dragon flew each day, come nightfall some instinct drew him home to Dragonstone. His home, not mine. Her home was back in Meereen, with her husband and her lover. That was where she belonged, surely.” (the first “If I look back” follows this).

She wishes that she could return to Meereen on dragonback, but Drogon is less inclined. I wonder if Drogon is telling her something, that is, he won’t bring her back to Meereen because she doesn’t belong there, no matter how committed she feels. She thinks of her children’s need of her, and that she must return, but it is clear that this prospect is as tepid to her as Hizdhar’s kisses.

She is struggling with a sense of belonging, trying to convince herself that Meereen is her place, but her thoughts of duty are interrupted by the memory of her exultation when she flew: “On Drogon’s back she felt whole.” Though she thinks longingly of returning to her pool and bathing all day, she realizes that she was “strangely happy” at Dragonstone, that she felt a freedom she’d never had despite lacking the material comforts to which she’s accustomed.

“[The Grass] never seemed so high”

She sees that winter is coming, noting the dying grass that’s engulfing her. Her memory turns to her time with the Dothraki, and she is filled with heavy nostalgia: “The sky was blue, the grass was green, and I was full of hope.” She thinks of this time as her “golden days,” where she was surrounded by loved ones, and was going to birth the “Stallion Who Mounts the World:” “Not since those half-remembered days in Braavos when she lived in the house with the red door had she been as happy.”

But jarringly, she remembers that in the Red Waste “all her joy had turned to ashes.” She recalls the events that led to Drogo’s downfall, and directly names the birth of her dragons as the only thing that saved her from being dragged back to Vaes Dothrak.

“[The Fire] elsewise didn’t touch me”

In remembering her pyre scene, Dany thinks of Daznak’s Pit and believes that the fire did not affect her beyond burning her hair. Yet, the chapter opens with descriptions of Dany’s burned hands, which were oozing and raw, suggesting that she is, in fact, not immune to fire. I can’t tell whether this is a delusion on her part, but instinctively, I get the feeling that her belief in fire-invincibility does not bode well for her.

“You are the blood of the dragon, you can make a hat.”

I think this is meant to expose her hubris, but I’m unsure whether she’d taken the lesson at this point.

“She still clung to hope that someone would come”

Dany thinks about being rescued by the various men in her life- Baristan, her bloodriders, her “noble husband” Jiz, and Daario, especially Daario. This strongly recalls her wedding procession, during which she yearned for Daario to swoop in and save her from the marriage she had orchestrated for herself. I’m of several minds about this. On one hand, she expresses a strong desire for a “rescue fantasy,” to be the proverbial lady in a tower waiting for her knight. On the other hand, she’s the one who had “imprisoned” herself, and both here and at the wedding, she follows through with taking care of herself. Interestingly, she doesn’t think of Drogon as a potential savior.

These thoughts turn fully to Daario, and she thinks of sacrificing her happiness for peace, believing that when she returns all will be well. These thoughts sending her looking back toward Dragonstone, but firmly, she tells herself for the second time, “if I look back…” Again, she must force herself to keep moving forward, convincing herself that a life on Drogon’s pillar is not right: “that was not the life she had been born to.” What makes her believe this, though? She believes that she was born to be a queen, but why?

“Kill it. Kill the beast”

Night falls and Dany is restless. Her thoughts race as she thinks of those she’s left in Meereen, wondering what they believe has become of her. She faces the fact that Jiz wanted Drogon dead: “Kill the beast,” she recalls him saying with a “lustful” expression. She confronts the fact that the locusts he’d offered were poisoned, but dismisses him as a candidate, believing he has no motive to harm her.

Before falling asleep, she hears that “off in the distance, a wolf howled,” but instead of fear (which has been the common reaction of most characters to such a noise), it evokes sadness and loneliness. I thought this might be relevant, as I’ve seen some speculations that this could be an indication of Jon’s “death.”

Asleep, she dreams of flying, and all her pains float away. When she speaks of flying throughout this chapter, she sees it as an escape, but also a feeling of great belonging and purpose. She sees a vision of Quaithe in the stars, who says: “Remember who you are, Daenerys. The dragons know. Do you?” I think that she’s starting to.

HotU, pt 2?

When Dany awakes she finds that she’s covered with bites, having made her nest along a small wall with an anthill on the other side. She thinks of the Wall as Viserys recounted, “The biggest wall in all the world,” musing that that wall would be to a man as this wall is to the ants. I think that this image foreshadows something about the Wall, whether her participation in the battle for the Dawn or perhaps even Jon personally.

But what struck me is how similar this image is to the vision of the rat men raping the woman in the HotU. It’s commonly understood that that vision portrays the War of the Five Kings tearing at Westeros, represented by a woman’s body. Here, we have Dany lying almost nude, asleep and unable to defend herself, with a swarm of ants scaling the wall to pick her apart. I can't help but think this has symbolic weight about the infestation of winter to Westeros, attacking while it's been "sleeping."

“My flesh will feed wolves and carrion crows”

Dany eats those infamous berries and summarily gets extremely sick. Severely weakened and dehydrated, her thoughts become more feverish and “mad” (though I think the “mad” is temporary, not an indication that she’s becoming Aerys 2.0, I hasten to add). Believing that she might be near death, she contemplates the Dothraki theology of riding into the night-lands, and muses on the Targ custom of cremation. With a kind of sad acceptance, she realizes that “my flesh will feed the wolves and carrion crows, and worms wil burrow trhough my womb.” Again, there is a reference to wolves and now crows; if you recall, MMD told Dany that Rhaego was filled with graveworms.

Viserys

Dany has a series of fever dreams in which she converses with those who have shaped her, confronting issues she’s never faced. In her vision, Viserys blames Dany for his death; when Viserys was crowned, Dany was expressionless and stoic, and I actually found her reaction quite beautiful. But I believe that Dany may have repressed feelings of guilt, wondering if she could have saved him or even mourned him, which she finally faces here. She tries to explain to Viserys that he has always misunderstood the Dothraki, and that his death was his doing and his doing alone. His final words indicate that he believes Dany has not behaved like a proper Targaryen, and that she does not deserve the dragons: “If I had a dragon, I would have taught the world the meaning of our words.”

the grass

Dany wakes to find herself covered in blood. After mentally calculating her cycle, it would appear that she might have been pregnant, though she herself does not conclude this. I think that the conversation she has with the grass supports the notion of miscarriage. She tells the grass that she is the blood of the dragon, to which the grass replies: “Once, until you chained your dragons in the dark.” She tries to reason with the grass, appealing to the girl who was killed, but the grass will hear none of it: “you turned against your children.” I think that her literal miscarriage is being symbolized by her confronting the miscarriage of her treatment of her dragons. At the beginning of the chapter, she thinks of the Meereenese as her children; now, she is confronted with the reality of misaligned priorities. And as an aside, Dany cannot remember the girl who was burned (Hazzea), which is the same crime she punished the weaver for. Dany feels overwhelming sadness and guilt about not remembering whereas the weaver hadn’t, but it does beg recalling that court scene nonetheless.

“the river will take me home”

Dany keeps marching along, thinking of returning to “her home” and to Daario. But now she has an epiphany: “Meereen was not her home, and never would be. It was a city of strange men with strange gods and stranger hair, of slavers wrapped in fringed tokars, where grace was earned through whoring, butchery was art, and dog was a delicacy. Meereen would always be the Harpy’s city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy.”

This strongly recalls Sodom in my mind, a city so “vile” and decadent that it imploded in its wretchedness. I find her adamant refusal of the harpy interesting as well. She’d never tried adopting the harpy as a symbolic image, but her admission of distaste for it is something new. A harpy is a beautiful woman with wings who is basically a thief. I wonder how much the meaning of a harpy plays into her thoughts here, if she feels as though she’d “stolen” the city, and is disgusted by that fact, wanting to distance herself from this identity.

Jorah

Jorah (really the grass with Jorah’s voice) confirms her new epiphany with an “I told you so”: “Your war is in Westeros, I told you.” He tells her that she became lost when she lingered in a place she wasn’t meant to be, and she confronts him for betraying her. He tells her that all he did was for “home.”

She rationalizes her choice to stay by telling him that she wanted to be a queen. He tells her that she is a queen, but in Westeros. She continues to defend her choices in Slaver’s Bay: “I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow.” I’d said in an earlier analysis that Dany’s stint in SB seemed to be the actual escapism device she employed. SB was a distraction from her taking on the task “she was born for,” coming to terms with her identity, confronting her past.

Where some characters reflect the archetype of the “reluctant leader,” Dany represents the reluctant destroyer; she wanted to lead, but ultimately, she is a conqueror: “You are the blood of the dragon. Dragons plant no trees. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.”

“Fire and Blood”

Dany says her words in answer, and her attention turns to a looming threat: a Dothraki scout. For a moment she thinks it could be Drogo, then she hopes for her bloodriders. She doesn’t recognize the man, and he leaves Dany unnoticed. Dany calls for Drogon who has been flying overhead, and mounts him. Thinking “To go forward I must go back,” she urges Drogo toward the direction of the khalasar, terrorizing the men, and killing a horse. She and Drogon land and begin eating, believing the khalasar has scattered.

As she eats, filthy in the grass she thinks about what Jiz might say if she saw her thusly, noting that he’d be “horrified.” But then her thoughts turn to Daario, who she believes would squat next to her and tuck in, without judgment. I think she finally understands Daario for what he is—a pure personification of ID, pleasure and destruction, and that this is what he has been trying to get her to unleash.

And then Khal Jhaqo, on whom she swore vengeance for the rape and murder of Ereoh in aGoT, finds her. I think a big question is whether Drogon, who returns to his pillar at dusk every night will stay as her protector, or if she might embrace a return to Vaes Dothrak, given her decision to “go back to go forward.”

[PatrickStormborn]

Excellent post, Butterbumps. I haven't got time to say much on it right now, so I'll just focus on the subject of Dany's burns.

Firstly, it should be made clear that Dany is only referring to the fire when she discusses not being burned. Just like at the end of AGoT, her hair was burned away by fire. But she received no other burns from the flames. The burns on her hands are not related to her hair being burned away, and Dany therefore does not link the two together. She didn't raise her hands to shield herself from Drogon's flames as she instead ducked beneath them, so it's hard to imagine that they could have been burned. In addition, I imagine that she wouldn't simply have cracked palms if her hands were hit by the flame. Surely the backs of her hands would also have been burned? I think it's therefore safe to think that the burns on her palms are from pulling the spear from Drogon, and not from the fire. Her assessment is therefore correct -- the fire did not harm her.

[The Lost Lord]

Oh yes, don't worry, I'm very much in agreement, and I think the same is true for Daenerys. They're certainly becoming more ruthless, but I believe that they will both use this newfound pragmatism as a force for good.

I put off responding to this till we got to Dany X because I have a very different view here. I think that, once we read the rest of the series, this chapter will be viewed in retrospect as the chapter where Dany became essentially a villain. We know that concern for innocent life is a kind of moral lodestar for GRRM. Jon kept trying to save innocent life, even when it was impractical, right up to the end in Jon XIII. Yet in this chapter Dany rejects her previous concern for innocent life in favor of a destructive path.

Without knowing how the situation in Meereen has deteriorated since she left -- for all she knows, all parties are still happy with the peace (she thinks about the locusts but doesn't seem too concerned about them) -- she has decided that she compromised too much and was too concerned for innocent life, and that she should instead unleash "Fire and Blood."

The visions all seem to lead her to this conclusion. She sees Viserys of all people chiding her, and he closes with: "If I'd had a dragon, I would have taught the world the meaning of our words." (Which sounds totally psycho.) She finally forgets the name of the child Hazzea that Drogon killed, sadly telling herself "I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons." She recalls Jorah's advice to leave Meereen (and have it collapse into chaos like Astapor), and now seems to think he was right. She says she wanted to plant trees and "Jorah" tells her "Dragons plant no trees." Her dreams of ending slavery seem to have taken a backseat, since she tells herself she has to go to Westeros (where there are no slaves). Instead, her thoughts are filled with vague, violent rhetoric about prophecy, ruling and conquest. "Good Queen Daenerys" is gone.

At the end we have an amusing literal embrace of fire and blood, when Dany cooks and eats the horse. Her final reflection before the khal arrives is a resolution to the "Hizdahr/unhappy compromise for peace" vs. "Daario/Red Wedding/taking what she wants through force" internal conflict she's been having throughout the book, -- she thinks about how Hizdahr wouldn't eat the horse but Daario would laugh and sit down beside her. Time to get blood on her hands.

Dany has decided, contrary to her behavior throughout the rest of ADWD, that she will put herself above her people. She wants to conquer, she wants to rule -- woe to anyone who gets in her way, and if scores of Hazzeas have to die for it, that's sad but nothing she can do about it.

It seems to me that Dany is being set up as a villain because she appears to be headed toward a coalition that's guaranteed to be despised by the people of Westeros. Dothraki, ironborn, foreign eunuchs, foreign former slaves, a noseless kinslaying kingslaying dwarf, and likely the red faith too with Moqorro and after she stops in Volantis. Meanwhile, Aegon will win the support of Dorne, the Faith, and the smallfolk more generally -- a Westerosi coalition, compared to Dany's foreigners and ironborn. He will take the Iron Throne before Dany arrives -- exactly the scenario that Tyrion warned about: "Do not wait too long, my prince. The moment will not last. The tide that lifts you now will soon recede. Be certain you reach Westeros before my sister falls and someone more competent takes her place.” And what does Dany do then?

[Alia of the knife]

I agree. Marsh and co. won't accept any argument Jon offers when they talk about these issues. In all those meetings they had to discuss the situation, it's almost like I can 'hear' Marsh's thoughts while Jon is explaining things. It feels to me that Marsh's not really hearing Jon. He's there, and it looks like he's listening. But I get the impression that, in his head, Marsh is only thinking 'the wildlings are the enemy, we must seal the gates'.

I think the bolded part is crucial to understanding the assassination attempt. The way I see it, what you suggest was not possible because there were too few black brothers willing to join Marsh.

True, which to my mind makes them even worse, and is an example of the entrenched corruption that permeates the Wall.

[Alia of the knife]

I have another observation thats short and sweet, but I'd point out another parallel with Jons Grandfather, Lord Rickard.

Barring all the theories about what Lord Rickard was really doing, and if he was friend, foe, or just indifferent to the Targaryens, and going off the immedediate information we have, I'd say that his actions in opening up new alliances through marriage with his family to the Southroners, probably secretly alienated many Northern families.

For all intents and purposes, the Starks were still the defacto Kings of the North, and I don't care if you kill every single one of them, no Northerner will ever bend the knee to the Boltens, which is why some are still desperately looking for a Stark.

So, for many Northerners, "marrying up," meant marrying a Stark, which could be why Brandon had quite a few highborn women thrown his way,( i.e., Barbary Dustin=Margary Tyrell), so, having that avenue of power cut off to them due to new contenders probably netted Rickard some animosity, even though he may have only wanted to pursue that path, and keep the North from being so isolated, without any real voice in KL.

[butterbumps!]

Excellent post, Butterbumps. I haven't got time to say much on it right now, so I'll just focus on the subject of Dany's burns.

Firstly, it should be made clear that Dany is only referring to the fire when she discusses not being burned. Just like at the end of AGoT, her hair was burned away by fire. But she received no other burns from the flames. The burns on her hands are not related to her hair being burned away, and Dany therefore does not link the two together. She didn't raise her hands to shield herself from Drogon's flames as she instead ducked beneath them, so it's hard to imagine that they could have been burned. In addition, I imagine that she wouldn't simply have cracked palms if her hands were hit by the flame. Surely the backs of her hands would also have been burned? I think it's therefore safe to think that the burns on her palms are from pulling the spear from Drogon, and not from the fire. Her assessment is therefore correct -- the fire did not harm her.

You know, you're actually right. I suppose that the pit scene is still somewhat untested in terms of her "proof" of fireproofness. That she was burned because of dragon blood does mean that she is not entirely invulnerable to heat-- in fact, dragonblood is dangerous to her. That's an interesting thought, though, for someone who is "blood of the dragon"...

I hope I hadn't sent the wrong idea in teasing that out. I'd gotten the sense that Dany believed herself impervious to fire, and given the fact that she had been burned- admittedly by the blood- and the fact that she had dodged the fire directly, that she might have too optimistic an idea of her invincibility, and that this might cause her harm.

[Blisscraft]

Great post, BB.

One of the things that struck me about "Dragonstone," is how similar it is to the "Fist of the First Men." In addition to the description BB includes in her post as, "[t]he hill was a stony island in a sea of grass," Dragonstone is described as:

"Scrub grass and thorny bushes covered its lower slope; higher up a jagged tangle of bare rock thrust steep and sudden into the sky."

The Fist of the First Men:

"The hill jutted above the dense tangle of forest, rising solitary and sudden, its wind swept heights visible from miles off."

Both hills are natural high grounds which permit a long view of the world around them. Also, both places shed light on our two "leaders" identities and destinies. I don't want to get too far afield about TFOTFM and COK, but Jon finds, with help from Ghost at the Fist's base, the obsidian, or "dragonglass." This find becomes a clue as to how to deal with the threat from the Others and as to Jon's destiny. Campbell says that, "A blunder may amount to the opening of a destiny." (Hero with a Thousand Faces p.42) This chance discovery is certainly an opening to Jon's destiny.

As for Dany, she, too, has "blundered" into her destiny with the birth of her dragons. She has a feeling, as affinity to the eggs, but nothing becomes clear until the pyre. However, it's not until she climbs down from "Dragonstone" that she really begins to understand her destiny and it is not remaining as Queen in Meereen.

Another aspect to destiny noted by Cambell is that it is the "awakening of the self." (Ibid.). So much of what occurs in Dany's last chapter is the "awakening" of her self. This "awakening," (as Jon's literal one to come in the future, post attempt) She is knowing/seeing herself for the first time in many ways through her dreams and memories. Part of her self knowledge is in the "riddle": "If I look back, I am lost," juxataposed with "to go forward, I must go back." The "riddle" is solved in a similar way to the riddle presented by the HoTU maze: by Drogon. (In HoTU, Drogon helps Dany solve the riddle and realize that the first door on the right is the last door on the left). At present, Drogon will not "save" or "rescue" Dany. To discover her way out, Dany is required to "climb" aboard and get burned and suffer. It is not easy and looks to bystanders as if she has died in her attempt to ride upon his back. But this "escape" brings her to acknowledge what is most important: her identity, her destiny, her true purpose. Dany learns in her time with Drogon that she cannot command him. However, once she climbs down Dragonstone and proceeds on her own, Drogon will follow her.

[Tagganaro]

Snip

Yes, I remember reading your thoughts before about this and they are certainly interesting and well-reasoned. Not sure I can say I agree, but I do find the apparent "coalition" Dany seems to be forming to be very worrisome at the very least. I mean, Ironborn, Dothraki, sellswords, slave army (kind of I know), with Tyrion advising her? That's like as rapey and disgusting a group of people as you could possibly come up with, along with Dragons to "plant no trees", it does seem as if that might not really go very well on a moral level.

And any time she thinks back to Viserys's advice as meaningful or helpful is obviously not a good thing either.

[Lummel]

It's a great chapter. She goes back. She stripped down of all followers and supporters. She is like her ancestor Aegon on Dragonstone, a refugee with nothing save dragons and ambitions.

She rejects being a harpy. The harpies were rapacious creatures if I remember correctly, they swooped down and ate up a King's dinner everyday before he had the chance to eat. She rejects that as an identity.

She admits to herself that she was tired and needed to rest at Meereen but understands it wasn't her place.

There is optimism here I think because there is resolution and decision to go forwards. Previously the problems of ruling burdened her and depressed her. She seems now to be able to see the forest as a whole - as though flight has given her a new perspective.

[Lykos]

Furthermore the RL harpies love to pray on my Avatar :tantrum: .

[Fire Eater]

“You are the blood of the dragon, you can make a hat.”

I think this is meant to expose her hubris, but I’m unsure whether she’d taken the lesson at this point.

I would also add

She tried and tried, but her last attempt had been no more successful than her first.

Hat making seems to be a metaphor for her attempts at building a stable, just state that she wants. Her efforts in Meereen had been no more successful than her efforts in Astapor.

Dany is back on what she calls Dragonstone, the place of her birth; so it can be taken that Dany is undergoing rebirth.

[Lummel]

... I do find the apparent "coalition" Dany seems to be forming to be very worrisome at the very least. I mean, Ironborn, Dothraki, sellswords, slave army (kind of I know), with Tyrion advising her? That's like as rapey and disgusting a group of people as you could possibly come up with, ...

as opposed to the army of charming gentle people that she could have recruited instead :) ?

Isn't one of the lessons of ACOK to AFFC that all armies, irrespective of the cause they are fighting for are destructive and harpy like, preying on the countryside? War in Westeros is organised violence, but with extra potential for disorganised violence too.

At least her Unsullied are disciplined, castrated and devoted to her.

Furthermore the RL harpies love to pray on my Avatar :tantrum: .

Perhaps you need to be less slothful ;) Although it did look as though your sigil beast was being carried off by a Roc out of the Arabian Knights...

...Dany is back on what she calls Dragonstone, the place of her birth; so it can be taken that Dany is undergoing rebirth.

It's definitely a laborious process of rebirth

[Lykos]

What I like about the hat making is, that Dany did notice how hats were made. She just didn´t appreciate the amount of learned skill that goes into this craft. I wonder if she would have reacted differently to Grazdan zo Galare´s request for compensation for having young slaves trained by older ones. Maybe instead of retalliation for forgetting the old slaves name and acting out of greed, she might have realised the benefits of this idea and given him the task of organising the education of young craftsmen to build up a viable economy. Maybe this would have gained her the support of House Galare, though I think it wouldn´t have been enough to successfully transform the slaver society.

ETA: Lummel, actually I think this young sloth moved to much and was therefore seen by the harpy-eagle. Do you think I drew the wrong conclusions? :unsure:

[Lummel]

If you ever feel cold bird claws on your shoulders my friend then you will know ;)

Interesting idea about the craft academy...an industrial policy for westeros in the making

[Lykos]

Well, I get carried away quite a lot. :laugh: