What makes Sandor Clegane awesome.

[Lyanna Stark]

The Hound is beyond forgiveness for his crimes IMO but he's dead now. I'm willing to forgive Sandor.

With that reasoning, most ASOIAF characters would be beyond forgiveness, most certainly Tyrion, Arya and Stannis. It's a rather pointless way of looking at nuanced characters.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I don't think he's dead, and he may not be beyond forgiveness either. As someone stated earlier Sandor might have seen his actions as protecting Mycah from an even worse fate if he delivered the boy to Cersei. This actually makes sense given his views on the world.

The Hound is dead. Sandor is alive and at rest on the Quiet Isle.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

With that reasoning, most ASOIAF characters would be beyond forgiveness, most certainly Tyrion, Arya and Stannis. It's a rather pointless way of looking at nuanced characters.

With what reasoning? I didnt give any.

[Lyanna Stark]

With what reasoning? I didnt give any.

"beyond forgiveness"?

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

"beyond forgiveness"?

:idea: :dunce: I don't follow...

[straits]

In the words of Stannis, who wanted to burn Edric Storm and who was ok with murdering his brother Renly? When it comes to justifications, Stannis hardly has a leg to stand on. At least Sandor felt bad for killing Mycah.

D'aww. Deep down he's a nice guy, like Jamie.

Stannis had lots of nasty intentions, sure. But he still hasn't killed Edric. And Renly's death was a political move that would not have been used if Mr. Velvet Glove chose not to play at being a king. Stannis has other faults, this is not the rope with the bell on it.

With that reasoning, most ASOIAF characters would be beyond forgiveness, most certainly Tyrion, Arya and Stannis. It's a rather pointless way of looking at nuanced characters.

It is indeed useless to compare the moral grounds of characters to each other. I think it would be better if fans would admit that they favor characters who are basically horrid human beings.

[Lyanna Stark]

:idea: :dunce: I don't follow...

If you believe that someone is "beyond forgiveness" for doing a bad deed, that means you believe people cannot change and strive for something better. They might as well just go off and die somewhere, quietly.

D'aww. Deep down he's a nice guy, like Jamie.

No, it means he is not a monster or totally immoral. It does not mean he is a cuddly toy. Nuances, I like those. Do you? How about subtle characterisation?

Stannis had lots of nasty intentions, sure. But he still hasn't killed Edric. And Renly's death was a political move that would not have been used if Mr. Velvet Glove chose not to play at being a king. Stannis has other faults, this is not the rope with the bell on it.

And Sandor was ordered to kill Mycah by way of royal decree. And you see, the dog ate my homework. As it happens, both are guilty of immoral acts (and in Stannis case also of planning a deeply immoral act that only Davos managed to undo).

It is indeed useless to compare the moral grounds of characters to each other. I think it would be better if fans would admit that they favor characters who are basically horrid human beings.

As we have seen in the rereads, GRRM is often exploring the monster within and how it affects us. Everyone is capable of monstrous deeds, that's what being human is about. You make an active choice not to do monstrous deeds - and sometimes, to do them.

Jaime even notes that Steelshanks Walton is a pretty average soldier who will kill without asking on his lord's command, he will rape after combat, and then he will go home, marry the neighbour's daughter and raise a horde of children. In comparison, he thinks that the Bloody Mummers enjoy cruelty and sadist actions.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

If you believe that someone is "beyond forgiveness" for doing a bad deed, that means you believe people cannot change and strive for something better. They might as well just go off and die somewhere, quietly.

No, it means that I can't forgive them for what they've done. They can strive to be a better person but it doesn't mean that I'll forgive them. Just because I can't forgive someone, it doesn't mean that "they might as well just go off and die somewhere, quietly."

[Chalice_of_Malice]

So this is my maiden post - here it goes:

Sandor is my favourite character. Hands down. This is entirely to do with GRRM bringing out all the bells and whistles in terms of complex character development. Throughout my reading experience, this character was the only one who evoked a range of emotions from me. In the beginning he's kinda pigeonholed as a thug - if this was a Guy Ritchie film, he'd be the thick-necked goon who breaks lots of limbs for kicks and does very little else (and may be sporting a crew cut and wife beater). However out of relatively nowhere, you get a sense that there's actually a real person underneath all the unpleasantries i.e. the demise of Mycah. As a reader, that shocked the hell out of me and I found myself wanting to know more - which makes him interesting; light and shade and all that.

I always find myself drawing parallels between Sandor and Rochester from Jane Eyre - not necessarily in a romantic hero sense (Rochester is far less emotionally constipated), but they are both men whose experiences in their youth and their subsequent actions have resulted in them feeling "unclean" and are now desperate for some form of atonement. Sandor gives us glimpses of a half-way decent guy buried underneath all that guilt, rage, savagery and disappointment, and in Westeros half-way decent people are pretty thin on the ground. He's complicated, brutal, acerbic and surprisingly wise (and probably smelly), and for those reasons he holds my attention. Plus I dig the gallows humour.

Thus Sandor is rad.

[Theda Baratheon]

So this is my maiden post - here it goes:

Sandor is my favourite character. Hands down. This is entirely to do with GRRM bringing out all the bells and whistles in terms of complex character development. Throughout my reading experience, this character was the only one who evoked a range of emotions from me. In the beginning he's kinda pigeonholed as a thug - if this was a Guy Ritchie film, he'd be the thick-necked goon who breaks lots of limbs for kicks and does very little else (and may be sporting a crew cut and wife beater). However out of relatively nowhere, you get a sense that there's actually a real person underneath all the unpleasantries i.e. the demise of Mycah. As a reader, that shocked the hell out of me and I found myself wanting to know more - which makes him interesting; light and shade and all that.

I always find myself drawing parallels between Sandor and Rochester from Jane Eyre - not necessarily in a romantic hero sense (Rochester is far less emotionally constipated), but they are both men whose experiences in their youth and their subsequent actions have resulted in them feeling "unclean" and are now desperate for some form of atonement. Sandor gives us glimpses of a half-way decent guy buried underneath all that guilt, rage, savagery and disappointment, and in Westeros half-way decent people are pretty thin on the ground. He's complicated, brutal, acerbic and surprisingly wise (and probably smelly), and for those reasons he holds my attention. Plus I dig the gallows humour.

Thus Sandor is rad.

:cheers:

Great first post. ^_^

I agree, he's one of my favourites too.

[Fetch me a block]

Fuck the Kingsguard. Fuck the City. Fuck the King.

There is a picture of the Hound with the caption "Sup Dawg" on my computer but it is too big to put as my display picture :bawl:

[SilentSense]

He's honest and unlike so many, doesn't spout bullshit

[Whitering]

I wonder how much of the respect he gained for Arya was because he knew she had been raised in the same environment as Sansa but clearly rebelled to be her own little badass self.

Edit, oh shit, I also just realized STRANGER accepted Arya lol

She was combing him, feeding him and doing all that stuff. Well, she didn't try to cut his balls off.

[Elba the Intoner]

So this is my maiden post - here it goes:

Sandor is my favourite character. Hands down. This is entirely to do with GRRM bringing out all the bells and whistles in terms of complex character development. Throughout my reading experience, this character was the only one who evoked a range of emotions from me. In the beginning he's kinda pigeonholed as a thug - if this was a Guy Ritchie film, he'd be the thick-necked goon who breaks lots of limbs for kicks and does very little else (and may be sporting a crew cut and wife beater). However out of relatively nowhere, you get a sense that there's actually a real person underneath all the unpleasantries i.e. the demise of Mycah. As a reader, that shocked the hell out of me and I found myself wanting to know more - which makes him interesting; light and shade and all that.

I always find myself drawing parallels between Sandor and Rochester from Jane Eyre - not necessarily in a romantic hero sense (Rochester is far less emotionally constipated), but they are both men whose experiences in their youth and their subsequent actions have resulted in them feeling "unclean" and are now desperate for some form of atonement. Sandor gives us glimpses of a half-way decent guy buried underneath all that guilt, rage, savagery and disappointment, and in Westeros half-way decent people are pretty thin on the ground. He's complicated, brutal, acerbic and surprisingly wise (and probably smelly), and for those reasons he holds my attention. Plus I dig the gallows humour.

Thus Sandor is rad.

Welcome to the forums and what a way to make a start! Sandor is rad indeed. Your observations about Sandor and Mr. Rochester are very astute. I and others have noticed the similarities too and this has been discussed on the Pawn to Player Rethinking Sansa threads. You should check them out if you love Sandor because he gets discussed a lot there. For me it was the way he started to change his loyalties away from Joff and the Lannisters and want to help the Starks, his feelings for Sansa, and the fact that he genuinely did feel extremely sorry for what he did to Mycah that hooked me. I think if he gets off the QI he won't be the kind of guy who would kill a child without question on orders anymore.

[Warsaw]

I wonder if we'll all still love him when he stops grave-digging and appears again (if that theory is true, of course). I hope he doesn't turn all pious and mellow and disappoints us. It's certain that SOMETHING will change in him. What do you think? Will he still be our beloved badass?

[Prefiera de Gryfalco]

Sandor is, in my mind, the most interesting character in the series. This was almost a given for me because I tend to totally flock to the dark complicated anti-heroes that usually try to do the right thing, but it may not always come out that way. Severus Snape, Rorschach, Wolverine, Aragorn, Mr. Rochester, Heathcliff, Claude Frollo (from the novel), and so on have various amounts of light and dark to them. Makes them so much more interesting than the stock white hats (Ned, Robb) or even the stock villains (Gregor, Ramsay).

He's very powerful and arguably the best all around swordsman in the series and he can be incredibly aggressive physically and verbally. And yet he described as crying "on screen" at least three times that I can remember (when Sansa sings the Mother's song, when his arm is badly burned after the fight with Beric, and when he is close to dying with Arya). He has this immense brutality and incredible vulnerability at the same time. He is an interesting study on nature versus nurture, as are many of those anti-heroes above, and seeing his true colors as his own dog is most interesting. In some respects, he almost has two personalities: the little white knight of his childhood and The Hound. I see his conflicted and mercurial presence to be very much a manifest of this dichotomy.

I do not believe his story is done, though I would like to see his rage and alcoholic tendencies lessened. I don't like to see him woobified or skipping about the pastures sprinkling flower petals, but getting a rein in on his more volatile nature would make him a better warrior and who knows? Maybe open to an actual sort of healthy relationship (not even necessarily romantic) with someone.

[The Dornish Direwolf]

One of my top five favorite characters for sure. Oh how I wish it was Sandor and not Littlefinger who tells the story of his burned face to Sansa in the show. Would of made more sense, and dramatized things more for a Sansa/Hound relationship(not sexual, eww).

Just the fact he is one of the absolute best fighters in Westeros, his damned-if-I-care outwards display of attitude to the world at first is all we are shown, then we find out there are more layers to him beneath that.

I finished my SoS re-read yesterday and I found that my favorite chapters were the Arya POVs when The Hound and her are travelling together. Without Sandor, Arya would be dead, or worse. She could ACTUALLY be forced into marrying Ramsay. :stunned:

[Elba the Intoner]

I wonder if we'll all still love him when he stops grave-digging and appears again (if that theory is true, of course). I hope he doesn't turn all pious and mellow and disappoints us. It's certain that SOMETHING will change in him. What do you think? Will he still be our beloved badass?

I am hoping that the fact that Sandor's horse Stranger would not let the monks on the QI geld him is a sign that Sandor will still maintain his ferocity and not turn into some hairshirt wearing pious penitent like Lancel as Stranger seemed to reflect Sandor's personality in many ways. Also the way he, that is the lame novice, flung the dirt at Brienne suggested that he's still fiesty.

[Warsaw]

I don't think it was directed at Brienne. Why would it? They've never met. I think he was just sloppy.

But yeah, hopes up.

[Elba the Intoner]

Hmm perhaps it was nothing more than his being sloppy, but I thought he might have heard from the brothers who greeted Brienne and co when they arrived how she was searching for Sandor to kill him. So I took it as he was just sort of throwing a little dirt at her to show her what he thinks of that idea. Now I'll have to go back and look it up because it's been a while, but I thought she made it known right away that she was looking for him.