Red Country - spoiler thread.

[mormont]

Finished this a couple of days ago. Some thoughts:

- I can't agree that either BSC or The Heroes are anything other than fine standalone novels. Sure, they're set in a larger world, and there are references to other stories: but they work as separate stories first and foremost.

Red Country, though, felt somewhat more like a prequel novel. In particular, once the scene moves to the Dragon People, it quickly becomes clear there's more going on here than will be addressed in the pages of the book itself, that we're being introduced to something that will form the basis for a later story. You can say the same about other scenes or characters in the other two standalones, maybe, but here it's something like a quarter of the book that feels like this.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, mind you.

- Following on from that, there is a tremendous amount happening in what is a reasonably short book. The initial setup and the start of the pursuit, the trek and the Fellowship, Crease, and then the Dragon People. And there are a lot of characters, as well as many events. The book felt much longer than it was, and part of that was just that it gets through an awful lot, quite efficiently and effectively as a rule.

- The Western tropes are used intelligently, but I have some trouble picturing some of the mixtures of styles, particularly in terms of clothing. The feel of Crease is very 19th century, which sits oddly with my sense of the Union and Styria and even the Near Country being about 100-150 years behind that in terms of fashions and social development (and the North being farther behind still). Yeah, industrialisation, etc., but the seams of the worldbuilding seemed a bit frayed here, if you'll forgive the metaphor.

- I did love both Shy and Temple, and also Ro. I was worried about how she seemed to be committing to the Dragon People and forgetting her old life, because I wasn't sure that complete a transformation was totally believable, but the fact that the commitment began to wane once she was taken back redeemed that. It was a smart idea to have each section end with a chapter from her POV. The repeat of the shifting-POV trick from Heroes with the Fellowship fit less well, but was a good way to get us through some important business quickly, I guess.

- I like that Logen is never named as anything other than Lamb. That works, for me. For a reader unfamiliar with the series, I think it would work well. He's Lamb, a guy with a notorious, violent, storied past: what else do they need to know? His confrontation with Shivers also worked for me. It seemed to me that Shivers wasn't bothered so long as he could go back and claim the credit. And yeah, maybe he did want to avoid traumatising the kids. I like to think there's enough humanity left in him for that to matter.

- Overall, the book is great, but it's a step down from The Heroes, for me. Not a huge step down, but I think The Heroes is still Joe's best so far.

[russjass]

I have to admit that this is another low point for me. I enjoyed BSC and The Heroes, to some extent, and Red Country to a lesser extent. I cant help the feeling that all of the standalone novels are killing time until the main action starts again. It feels to me like the webisodes that are released alongside a TV series, little extras to keep you going until the following week.

But that might just be my personal need to get my teeth into a longer, denser more varied story, which TFL satisfied perfectly. I re-read TFL again and again, but I havent re-read any of the standalones, and doubt I will tbh

[Luke Scull]

Agreed with all the above, except I would swap in Best Served Cold for The Heroes as Joe's best work. Before They Are Hanged might run it close, too. I wasn't too keen on the shifting POVs - I think they felt a little choppy.

I wonder if the theme of the old versus the new (which seems to be an undercurrent in all Abercrombie's work) will come right to the fore in the next trilogy.

Edit: By "above" I meant Mormont's post.

[Lupigis]

Abercrombie has just confirmed that the next book will be the first of a trilogy, and adds:

"They'll probably take place chiefly in the Union about 20-30 years on from the First Law, centering on a civil war, with some of the characters from the First Law moved into the background and their children being some of the central characters. Creeping industrialization will also be on the horizon"

I have liked all the books so far and I'm sure that the upcoming trilogy will be good to, but I hope that Abercrombie decides to keep a few fantasy elements! Sure, there is a strong feeling of "magic is leaving the world" in the series so far, but there is also an unresolved conflict between magic and technology (with Bayaz betting on technology and Kaluhl on magic) that I would like to see him explore.

[SeanF]

I doubt if the powers of the remaining

I have liked all the books so far and I'm sure that the upcoming trilogy will be good to, but I hope that Abercrombie decides to keep a few fantasy elements! Sure, there is a strong feeling of "magic is leaving the world" in the series so far, but there is also an unresolved conflict between magic and technology (with Bayaz betting on technology and Kaluhl on magic) that I would like to see him explore.

I doubt if magic will have vanished completely in just 20-30 years. There are still Magi, Eaters, Ferro, and Tolomei alive in the World, and I imagine that The Seed is still extremely potent.

I imagine that if Ferro hadn't slammed the lid of the box that the Seed was in, then magic (and demons) would have come back into the world with a vengeance.

[SeanF]

Agreed with all the above, except I would swap in Best Served Cold for The Heroes as Joe's best work. Before They Are Hanged might run it close, too. I wasn't too keen on the shifting POVs - I think they felt a little choppy.

I wonder if the theme of the old versus the new (which seems to be an undercurrent in all Abercrombie's work) will come right to the fore in the next trilogy.

Edit: By "above" I meant Mormont's post.

Those two are my favourites as well.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

It was my understanding that the Seed rejuvenated magic to a large extent.

[SeanF]

It was my understanding that the Seed rejuvenated magic to a large extent.

Very much so in Ferro's case. I hope we get to see what happened to her. All we've had is an oblique reference from Ishri.

[Marcus Cicero]

If the next trilogy is set so far in the future, though, that hurts my theory, since Logen will almost certainly be dead.

I don't know. After Red Country, I'm beginning to question whether Logen (+ the B9) is even mortal.

[Luke Scull]

I don't know. After Red Country, I'm beginning to question whether Logen (+ the B9) is even mortal.

Logen's actually only in his late 40s in Red Country (he's early 30s in The First Law trilogy). That would put him in his early 50s if the new trilogy takes place 20 years after The First Law. Not exactly ancient - if anything he'd be even more grizzled and deadly, close to the William Munny figure that's obviously an inspiration. He'd still be bigger and stronger than most and more experienced than just about anyone. And that's not even taking into account the Bloody Nine.

I'd love to know what exactly the Bloody Nine is. We know it manifests itself when Logen is basically down and beaten. Is it a unique state of mind, an extreme psychological reaction to great stress? Or does Logen body's become a vessel for a demonic entity of some kind? There's nothing to suggest the Bloody Nine is immortal or superhumanly strong (though he's apparently still strong enough to overpower an 8-foot tall giant). Until he comes against up someone or something fast/deadly enough to inflict an incapacitating blow (maybe a powerful Eater?), it's difficult to know whether or not his abilities extend into the supernatural.

[jurble]

Man, I dislike the whole the Bloody-Nine is supernatural thing. Dude's just a crazy split-personality berserker murdering machine. Just leave it there. He already has magical powers in that he can talk to Spirits (speaking of which, is that how we assume he mysteriously survives the burning building at the very end? Because I can't see any other way he could've made it out of there alive, and in the First Law, he did speak to Fire spirits and even kept one in his mouth to spit fire.)

[Marcus Cicero]

Logen's actually only in his late 40s in Red Country (he's early 30s in The First Law trilogy). That would put him in his early 50s if the new trilogy takes place 20 years after The First Law. Not exactly ancient - if anything he'd be even more grizzled and deadly, close to the William Munny figure that's obviously an inspiration. He'd still be bigger and stronger than most and more experienced than just about anyone. And that's not even taking into account the Bloody Nine.

I'd love to what what exactly the Bloody Nine is. We know it manifests itself when Logen is basically down and beaten. Is it a unique state of mind, an extreme psychological reaction to great stress? Or does Logen body's become a vessel for a demonic entity of some kind? There's nothing to suggest the Bloody Nine is immortal or superhumanly strong (though he's apparently still strong enough to overpower an 8-foot tall giant). Until he comes against up someone or something fast/deadly enough to inflict an incapacitating blow (maybe a powerful Eater?), it's difficult to know whether or not his abilities extend into the supernatural.

I thought he was in his 50s? Either way, a normal human would have declined in fighting prowess and stamina, but he didn't. I wouldn't go as far as to say that the B9 is a spirit, but whatever it is, it supervenes the normal laws of human biology, making Logen effectively superhuman. We know for a fact that he has a tinge of the magical about him as manifested by his ability to see/speak to spirits.

[Luke Scull]

I thought he was in his 50s? Either way, a normal human would have declined in fighting prowess and stamina, but he didn't. I wouldn't go as far as to say that the B9 is a spirit, but whatever it is, it supervenes the normal laws of human biology, making Logen effectively superhuman. We know for a fact that he has a tinge of the magical about him as manifested by his ability to see/speak to spirits.

I don't think his age is ever explicitly stated, but I believe Red Country takes place 15 years after The Blade Itself in which he says he's "passed his 30th year". That seems to indicate he's on the lower end of 30 (otherwise he'd say he was nearing his 40th year). Also, Shy South is most likely "south" of 25 years old (maybe 23?), and she states he has 25 years on her.

We don't know that Logen hasn't declined a little. He's that much better than everyone else in Red Country that it's hard to say, but I don't think a fighter of Logen's physical stature and experience would necessarily decline much into middle age. It's possible he's a schizophrenic; that his Bloody-Nine personality doesn't feel pain or fear, and that instead of being "just" a really good fighter is a ridiculously good fighter who kills with the ease of a virtuoso. I agree with the poster above who prefers the split-personality explanation - it's cooler and more original than Logen just possessing supernatural powers (though clearly the spirit thing falls into that category).

Edit: I realise that pulling back from the brink of unconsciousness to become some badass killing machine does probably supervene the normal laws of human biology - but I guess it's something the reader can buy into as maybe being quasi-possible, just as they do with Rocky and, uh, Hulk Hogan...

[Galactus]

So, next book, civil war in the union+industrialization?

Please tell me we'll have a commie revolution putting Bayaz up against the wall. Please?

[Crazydog7]

Are there any other fantasy books where we deal with a hero past his prime? If anything Logan reminds me of a crazy version of Waylander. I know there have been positive steps in reacent years but most of the stuff I remember from my early reading days dealt with Farmboys.

[russjass]

Gemmell is a great on for heroes past their prime, nearly all of them are? Grymauch, Connavar in the second book, Druss and of course Waylander.

I am sure there are tons of others but cant recall

[The hairy bear]

I share the opinion that BSC and TH are the best Abercrobmie works yet. My order would be:

BSC > TH >>> LAK > BTAH >> RC >>> TBI

We've met Hedges before? I can't remember him. Guessing it was in The Heroes?

Yes, he was birefly in the Heroes. Tunny admonizes him for stealing to a Northern prisoner, only to rob him later.

His decision to leave at the very end can make some sense within that viewpoint. Its him basically sinking back to that belief that he can't escape the violence. And he's afraid of bringing that world down on his family. I didn't love it, because the excuse he gave of "protecting his family from outside danger" seemed like a pretty weak reason to abandon them, after fighting so hard for them. But the more I think about it, the more it can work, if the reality is that he wanted to protect them from himself. I could see him believing that he was the true danger at that point.

I think it can be both. Logen has a dual personality: his dominant side wants a peaceful life and represses the other violent side, who takes control in times of huge stress. My interpretation of the finale is that both "Logens" reached the consensus that they had to leave. One because he could hamr (directly or indirectly) his loved ones, and the other because he needed blood.

- I like that Logen is never named as anything other than Lamb. That works, for me. For a reader unfamiliar with the series, I think it would work well. He's Lamb, a guy with a notorious, violent, storied past: what else do they need to know?

While I agree that BSC an TH (specially the later) worked well as a sepparate novels, I'm not sure if that could be said of RC. I would like to hear about someone entering Abercrombie's world with this novel to see if it can be called a stand alone.

- I did love both Shy and Temple, and also Ro. I was worried about how she seemed to be committing to the Dragon People and forgetting her old life, because I wasn't sure that complete a transformation was totally believable, but the fact that the commitment began to wane once she was taken back redeemed that. It was a smart idea to have each section end with a chapter from her POV.

Agreed. I was eager for each Ro chapter at the end of every section. Knowing what the kids were doing at the time completed very well Shy and Temple's POVs.

I don't think his age is ever explicitly stated, but I believe Red Country takes place 15 years after The Blade Itself in which he says he's "passed his 30th year". That seems to indicate he's on the lower end of 30 (otherwise he'd say he was nearing his 40th year). Also, Shy South is most likely "south" of 25 years old (maybe 23?), and she states he has 25 years on her.

I think Shy's age could be deduced/approximated to be 20, after those two quotes:

* Last time I [Lamb] tried to stop Shy she was ten years old and it didn't stick then.

* Knew right off I could put an end on ten years of lying [when I saw the farm burned].

As I see it, if Lamb knew Shy when she was ten and Lamb he's been acting a peacful man for ten years, Shy can't be older than 20 (She could be younger if Lamb already knew her before she was ten)

That would make Logen 45 (as per the stated 25 years difference) during the RC, and 31 during TBI (agreeing with the "over 30" quote). I think it fits nicely.

At the beginning I was surprised when I realized that Lamb has known Shyfor 10 years, meaning he witnessed the births of Ro and Pit (ten and six). I guess Lamb had been hired to work in the farm and only became involved with "the mother" after Pit was born. But it would had been nice if this had been clarified.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

We build a lot of assumptions and characterization into Lamb because we know it's Logen. If you haven't read any other books of his, you'd just see a big insane person with a violent history. Him talking about being realistic and fighting who he is would be much more shallow.

[Luke Scull]

Are there any other fantasy books where we deal with a hero past his prime? If anything Logan reminds me of a crazy version of Waylander. I know there have been positive steps in reacent years but most of the stuff I remember from my early reading days dealt with Farmboys.

Not to sell myself like a three-copper harlot, but my upcoming novel The Grim Company has a couple of main heroes well past their primes. There's an excellent quote in Red Country where Cosca states how much more interesting his generation are than the youngsters, and that's something that struck me as very true - particularly in the grimdark sub-genre of fantasy where a long and bloody past full of regrets is almost par for the course! It might be an age thing (and I'm only 31), but I find it more interesting to watch an old legend attempting to live up to past glories than yet another young farmhand realising their heroic legacy...

[Screaming Turkey Ultimate]

What do people think of the Master Maker from this book? Much of the presentation of him from Waerdimunir's perspective seems at odds with the First Law trilogy. The Maker taught that people should cry freely? Really?

I'd chalk it up to Bayaz being the one who created and spread rumours about the Maker being a bad guy, to suit his agenda. The Maker probably was a nice guy.