ASOIAF's worst father?

[Rolex Baratheon]

Merret Frey was the worst father. He had 4 kids, Little Walder (sadistic SOB), Fat Walda (self explanatory), Gatehouse Ami (she'll raise her portcullis for anyone) and Marissa Frey (nothing much to say about this one).

bad judgement.

[danm_999]

well maybe not fixed, but altered.... Sam was his first born son and randyll wanted him to follow in his footsteps and be a strong little lord, but lets be honest Sam wasnt little lording material and needed some adjusting if he was ever gonna be. But he couldnt be changed anyway in the end.

I raise issue with the idea that Sam needed to be a great fighter to be a good lord. Why is that?

Some of the most devious, most effective and most successful lords in the series we neither see nor hear about them doing any good fighting personally. Lords like Tywin, Edmure Tully, Jon Arryn, Stannis, Doran Martell, Walder Frey, Varys, Littlefinger, Tyrion, etc.

Meanwhile, some of the best physical fighters turn out to be the absolute worst lords, administrators and rulers like Gregor Clegane, Robert Baratheon, Victarion Greyjoy and Oberyn Martell. The series seems to raise a very clear point that good fighters do not necessarily make good leaders.

[Khal Cherian]

I raise issue with the idea that Sam needed to be a great fighter to be a good lord. Why is that?

Some of the most devious, most effective and most successful lords in the series we neither see nor hear about them doing any good fighting personally. Lords like Tywin, Edmure Tully, Jon Arryn, Stannis, Doran Martell, Walder Frey, Varys, Littlefinger, Tyrion, etc.

Meanwhile, some of the best physical fighters turn out to be the absolute worst lords, administrators and rulers like Gregor Clegane, Robert Baratheon, Victarion Greyjoy and Oberyn Martell. The series seems to raise a very clear point that good fighters do not necessarily make good leaders.

I never said he had to be a great fighter but he needs to have the strength to rule, make decisions, say No to some people be able to make demands of others, be just. I couldn't imagine Sam being able to order the punishment of a criminal for instance, or getting revenge on those that have wronged his house, also most of those named were at least competent warriors, at least in there youth, even Tyrion, born a dwarf with his stunted arms and legs survived the Battle of the Blackwater quite impressively and he has a much greater disadvantage than Sam should have.

[ost]

I think Randyll Tarly gets a hard time on this board. It was his task to raise his son to be a strong lord that would be, in his mind worthy of carrying Heartsbane and the honour of his house, but Sam was a complete failure and a disappointment. Yes his methods seem a bit over to the top to we who live in a world where one can't beat one's kids (doesn't stop me), and who get the story from Sam's POV. But as the father of a gay kid (who is also fat), I can understand that he got frustrated and gave Samwell such an ultimatum as death or exile. He tried so hard to raise Sam and all he got was that craven, bookworm, bigfatfuck. Frustrating.

He's also now doing a fairly solid job of raising Dickon (and presumably his other girls) by the looks of things. Please remember that Sam is not the only child you can judge his parenting skills on.

I don't who the worst father in Westeros is but it's not Randyll Tarly. Give him a break.

[Quiet Isle]

Randyll. I was seriously thinking to add Tywin but no, Randyll is worse. This doesn't mean that Tywin did not do terrible things to his children but Randyll was unbearably cruel and Sam so sweet. I never understood why he sent him to the Wall instead of Oldtown. Sam was born to be a maester not a Sworn brother. It is as if Randyll wanted Sam to die...

I seriously hope that Sam emerges as a badass accidental warrior while Dickon turns out to be a craven.

Might I include Oberyn? Great guy but not a good father. Ellaria's girls seem to be all right for the time being but Obara, Nymeria, Tyene and Sarella were taken away from their mothers and trained to become killers. Not a particular nice parenting method.

What about Jon Arryn? He witnessed Lysa turning Robert to a spoiled, sickly child and did nothing. By the time he decided that Robert was to be sent to Dragonstone, he had been poisoned already.

Disagree with you on Jon arryn. I think Jon arryn had already told Lysa he was sending the boy away to be warded to a male authority figure. Lysa had already had a forced abortion on her earlier through tansy tea (LF's kid), and she had a lot of babies she miscarried. Sweetrobyn was her last vestige of "love". Jon arryn was hand. lysa left KL and took robyn back to the vale after making "arrangements". Lysa killed jon arryn - not her hand, but her arrangement.

[Quiet Isle]

@Jaime's Wench...like a prior poster, I tend to give Jaime a free pass on the 'Worst Father' award. Any involvement with Joff, Myrcella and Tommen was discouraged by Cersei from the day Joff was born. Essentially he was allowed to be a sperm donor and mother's brother. Imagine having to be a KG and stand there watching your children call someone else father and not react. For years. I think that's a big part of his adolescent-like behavior at times. To his credit, he at least wonders if Joff would have been different if he had been more involved and decides that he will be more involved with Tommen.

I was just providing my mental process in post. I was going to pick Tarly until I started writing it down.

Exactly.

Jaime had no control over parenting, but remember he was PRESENT at all their births. He is going to get Tommen away from Cersei, and he will have to kill her to get him. and thus spoke Maggy the Frog - the little brother will kill you. he is the younger of cersei and his birth by a minute.

[Jolene Brown]

I still think he could have done far more. As an uncle, he could have done something, even if it had been once a fortnight, sitting Joffrey on his knee and telling him a story of old. He could have taught him moral lessons, could have trained with him in the tiltyard, could have taught him to ride his first horse, or at least corrected him when he bullied his younger brother. All these things would fall into the 'acceptable' level of what an uncle could do. And he could have stuck two fingers up at Cersei the moment she objected :-p

The thing about Jaime is that his children's lives were at stake. If Robert realized they were his, he would have had them killed and according to Lady Catelyn, most people wouldn't have even blinked at it. It is clear that it bothered him; it comes up a few times between him and Cercei when they are fighting. He talks about how she made the children Robert's, thinks about how Joffrey lived and died thinking Robert was his father, with the subtext being that that's part of why he feels such a lack of connection to him, he thinks about how he wants to give Cercei another child and no one will stop him from holding that one. He wants people to know that the children are his and he wants the children to know, but for obvious reasons, that's not necessarily something that is possible at this point (they could all still be executed, judging by what's happened with Cercei).

[Jaime's Wench]

The thing about Jaime is that his children's lives were at stake. If Robert realized they were his, he would have had them killed and according to Lady Catelyn, most people wouldn't have even blinked at it. It is clear that it bothered him; it comes up a few times between him and Cercei when they are fighting. He talks about how she made the children Robert's, thinks about how Joffrey lived and died thinking Robert was his father, with the subtext being that that's part of why he feels such a lack of connection to him, he thinks about how he wants to give Cercei another child and no one will stop him from holding that one. He wants people to know that the children are his and he wants the children to know, but for obvious reasons, that's not necessarily something that is possible at this point (they could all still be executed, judging by what's happened with Cercei).

I understand his position and don't fully 'blame' him. It was, however, still a choice. As member of the Kingsguard, he's sworn to protect both king and his family. Jaime used the 'and family' part to bodyguard Cersei and therefore have an illicit affair with her. He could have used that to have a relationship with Joffrey, even if it was only a once a fortnight outing or book reading session. He did it for Tyrion when younger, after all. I understand it would have 'roused suspicion' -- but certainly far less than being 'caught in the act' with his sister, which I would estimate is something he did on a more than fortnightly occaison!

[House Cearl]

WFOTY: Craster

2nd Place: Tywin

3rd Place: Roose Bolton

I disagree with those that listed Randyll Tarly. In Westeros you really do need to man up to even be a contender or even survive. Randyll is a four star bad ass who saw that his first born son was soft and in a land where "might is right" that is unacceptable. Look at Tywin Lannister, I doubt he'd be what he is if his own father took the initiative and put his foot down, dude was meek and it fell upon young Tywin's shoulders to restore authority to the Lannister name that ended up with him wiping two houses off the map. So grows older and ends up antagonizing his own kids to keep the authority/respect/honor to House Lannister (I also think his wife's untimely death and getting a deformed son out of it screwed him up as well).

What Randyll Tarly did wrong was go about it the wrong way. He should have tried conditioning Tarly into become a badass but his impatient methods just made him worse or just flat out traumatize him. I doubt he took the same extreme practices with his second son Dickon (who probably didn't show chickenshit traits). Randyll Tarly is like a BOPE (special forces in Brazil) captain, and Sam Tarly requires a different type of parenting that a seasoned badass like Tarly couldn't understand or provide.

Some say they don't understand why Randyll Tarly wouldn't allow his son to be a Maester. 1. He states that Tarly's don't wear chains or serve (something like that) 2. Maesters are placed in different Houses where they may have to inform on their own House (say like during a war) and Randyll wasn't gonna allow the potential of a Tarly helping an enemy house get the drop on the Tarly name. 3. Like someone else said Sam could drop out and come home looking for his inheritance. Best course of action was to send the fatty to the wall. It's a great idea cause look what Sam Tarly has achieved attending the wall, if he wasn't there a lot of good guys would be dead.

[King Tyrion I]

Craster

[EddardCorleone]

I want people to respond to my Merret Frey post

[Ice Turtle]

The number one remains Craster but I have a candidate for second place:

Rhaegar: For all we know he understood his children as tools to fulfill a prophecy, there is something really unsettling about that. Not to mention that he left his family to make another child with other woman.

[DreamSongs]

I understand his position and don't fully 'blame' him. It was, however, still a choice. As member of the Kingsguard, he's sworn to protect both king and his family. Jaime used the 'and family' part to bodyguard Cersei and therefore have an illicit affair with her. He could have used that to have a relationship with Joffrey, even if it was only a once a fortnight outing or book reading session. He did it for Tyrion when younger, after all. I understand it would have 'roused suspicion' -- but certainly far less than being 'caught in the act' with his sister, which I would estimate is something he did on a more than fortnightly occaison!

Look at Joffrey and look at Robert. Then look at Robert's disdain towards Jaime. Then look at Joff's treatment of his KG in general. When Joff talks to Tyrion in ACOK, he states on the poor state of the war 'your brother keeps losing battles'. My lucky guess is that Jaime was little more than a servant in Joff's eyes. He would been ordering him to beat Sansa with the others if hadn't been imprisoned in Riverrun.

[DreamSongs]

I want people to respond to my Merret Frey post

Okay, one boy is a bully. One girl is obese. One girl is a tramp.Dysfunctional yes, worst father material, no.

[Jaime's Wench]

Look at Joffrey and look at Robert. Then look at Robert's disdain towards Jaime. Then look at Joff's treatment of his KG in general. When Joff talks to Tyrion in ACOK, he states on the poor state of the war 'your brother keeps losing battles'. My lucky guess is that Jaime was little more than a servant in Joff's eyes. He would been ordering him to beat Sansa with the others if hadn't been imprisoned in Riverrun.

I would love to have seen Jaime's response to that request. "I am your father and I am ordering you to stop being such a wretched brat!" might have been the words when nobody was listening. I think Joffrey knew the truth by Book 2.... I mean, he heard the rumours, and despite all his despicable character flaws, he was capable of adding 2 to 2 and making 4.

/tangent

If Joffrey treated Jaime like a servant, he has only himself to blame. He could have spent time with him. One less shag with Cersei per month and one more afternoon spent with his kids - even to teach Joff the lessons he needed in a cruel but kind way. There's ways of doing it without making it obvious your reason why. His 'duty' as a Lannister to educate the next generation would have sufficed, imo.

[Tommen]

Wow a lot of hate for Randyll tarly, I actually think he was one of the better fathers in westeros, he spent alot of time, effort and gold trying to turn Sam into a better stronger person, sometimes he was a little extreme but it was only because he cared. Sam was just a really shoddy son. Randyll knows westeros is a tough world and Sam wouldnt make it til he manned up, and if left to rule hornhill he would jeopardise the family with his weakness, so in a master stroke of genius and love he sent Sam to the wall where he has since started manning up and becoming awesome! Randyll tarly knew what he was doing!

Randyll Tarly is awesome <3 <3

Compare Randyll Tarly's method of dealing with Sam to Jon Snow's. Jon understands that Sam isn't a natural combatant but he respects Sam's other talents and empowers him by pointing these out to Sam and the other black brothers. Defending Sam and esteeming his abilities does so much more for him than Randyll ever did. It's from Jon that Sam really learns about bravery.

So yeah, I love Jon.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Second worst father. Jamie is a pretty terrible dad. As was robert.

Walder frey is a terrible father. I'm shocked he can remember all his rat's names. But he is still a better father than some.

The shavepate is a terrible father too. As he said if dany went back to westeros he would kill his daughters. But one of my least favorite dads is randyl tarly he was a horrid father to sam. But a great father to dickon.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Roose bolton is a terrible father too, but he is too good to that bastard. He is a horrid father to domeric and his future children

[Fat Mac]

Randyll Tarly chained his son in a dungeon then later threatened to kill him. Not the #1 father in my books...

[GallowsKnight]

Some of the most devious, most effective and most successful lords in the series we neither see nor hear about them doing any good fighting personally. Lords like Tywin, Edmure Tully, Jon Arryn, Stannis, Doran Martell, Walder Frey, Varys, Littlefinger, Tyrion, etc.

Tywin Lannister - Leads the charges of his reserve in battle. Certainly not in the frontline but he fights.

Edmure - We see no hint of his deviousness, possibly lead troops defending against the River crossing.

Jon Arryn - Was a hero of the War of the Ninepenny Kings and we have no reason to doubt his command skill during the Rebellion.

Stannis - We never see him fight physically but is trained in arms and a very good commander.

And Tyrion? The minute he picks up a weapon, in the Vale, at the Green Fork or on the Blackwater, he fights as well as any man. Which is incredible as he is a barely trained dwarf.

Of the others you mentioned, we have no idea how well a 90-year old Frey used to fight. Varys is a lord only in name. Littlefinger is the only person you can point and say, hey that guy made it to the top when he can barely fight.