Rereading Tyrion IV (ASOS)

[Winterfellian]

Winterfellian-- To continue with the Smith theme, who Tyrion really is has been forged by Tywin even though he may not be the creation that was intended. I like the observation of how Tywin is winning loyalty. Where I went with it in my head was that he is diminishing his own children to help elevate his own position which fits with my idea that he is poisoning his own legacy-- but I'm hesitant to attribute my own negative Tywin sentiments to your post.

Bring them on! Am not exactly a Tywin fan so I won't mind :laugh:

One of the points I was trying to make with my post is that Tyrion is, like you said, very much the product of his father. He have seen him taking other lessons from Tywin such as taking his own "dogs and beasts" to do the dirty work and I think that the whole Bywater incident is another example of Tyrion subconsciously proceeding to act much like his father will do given that Tywin's approach with Pycelle and Boros is incredibly similar to his son.

[DrunkSister]

During this reread I try and pretend I am a fly on the wall and from that perspective:

If I were Loras, I would feel both insulted and hurt by Tyrion's comments.

He begins very condescendingly ''How old are you, Ser Loras?'' and it goes downhill from there:

Why he would join Kingsguard?

1) It's none of his business! 2) Margaery is to be a queen? He is her twin?!

Loras answers with Aemon the Dragonknight (love, honor, knightly ideal) and Jaime (your own brother joined and you ask me?).

Then Tyrion smiles 'mockingly' and starts teasing about lands, titles, marriage, children... Does Tyrion really not know about R+L? There he is thinking that Loras used to be as colorful as a rainbow and not taking a hint, lol.

But Loras could have seen a mocking smile and assumed that Tyrion knew and was twisting the knife. Especially since poor kid is really depressed.

When Tyrion asks of love Loras goes all poetical about how Renly is dead and he will never love again and Tyrion asks if that is from a song and says that Loras knows nothing of love but songs 'cause he is just a kid. LOL

When Loras tenses and asks 'Are you mocking me?' Tyrion says how he had a love, too. Which would be very sweet and all but he is talking to Loras and we know what an ass Loras is. I bet he was disturbed that a dwarf could have that kind of feelings and that he doubts they were returned (especially because Tyrion often boasts about whoring, Alayaya has been whipped in public, rumors of Tysha are not so secret etc)

lol

They are soo speaking past each other I can't believe!

And I bet that was like seventeenth time Loras heard that question just in that hour, there he is, standing guard and everybody that comes just has to make small talk and ''So, you joined the kingsguard? At seventeen? Is that the youngest ever? So, you can't marry now, all the pretty maidens are going to cry...''

Tyrion and Shae are at cross purposes throughout this meeting. We are told Tyrion's thoughts, but have to work out what Shae's are from what she says.

First she hears Tyrion say he is going to put her aside. She asks about the silks and jewels Tyrion gave her in ACoK and then took away again. She hears Tyrion say she will never get them back. Then she asks if she can stop maiding for Lollys and tries to persuade Tyrion to make her his mistress again. Tyrion refuses that as well, and she is clearly upset and angry, but feels unable to do more than be sullen (which might be a last attempt to soften him). Ultimately, and probably after some thought, she persuades him to "keep" her in return for continuing to be his whore, presumably still with some hope of ultimately wheedling a better deal out of him.

I am a fly on the wall and suddenly Shae seems a lot more reasonable. Tyrion NEVER tells her that if they are discovered she will be hanged.

And we hear that she tried to pick up her stuff and leave but that she didn't get her silks and jewels.

Speaking of cultural overtones, in Hindi the phrase naak catwana (to have one's nose cut off) means to have been deeply shamed in public. This is because cutting off the noses of traitors, whores, adultresses and unchaste women was a punishment back when we still had the feudal system.

And in Byzantine Empire there was a time when overthrown emperors would lose their nose and that would make them unfit to rule (Justinian II The Awesome came back with vengeance anyway and the custom was abandoned).

Is Tyrion symbolically disinherited?

There are other maimings done as a punishment for crimes. For certain crimes a person would lose a nose/ear/beard/hand/arm/both hands/eyes etc. But I don't think Martin was inspired by Bizantium. Perhaps other places?

Edited to add: English is my second language, please forgive the grammar and spelling.

[Winter's Knight]

“When the sun has set, no candle can replace it.”

“Is that from a song?” Tyrion cocked his head, smiling. “Yes, you are seventeen, I see that now.”

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones Tyrion-or have you forgotten that you are still to recover from Tysha, the girl you fell in love with at thirteen?

[Danelle]

And in Byzantine Empire there was a time when overthrown emperors would lose their nose and that would make them unfit to rule (Justinian II The Awesome came back with vengeance anyway and the custom was abandoned).

Is Tyrion symbolically disinherited?

There are other maimings done as a punishment for crimes. For certain crimes a person would lose a nose/ear/beard/hand/arm/both hands/eyes etc. But I don't think Martin was inspired by Bizantium. Perhaps other places?

GRRM mentions John Julius Norwich in his website, who wrote about Byzantium so perhaps he was familiar with Justinian II.

What is interesting is that Justinian II after his nose was cut, he had it replaced with a golden replica. I don't know whether this is relevant or not, but Tyrion's bandaged nose reminded me of Jake Gittes, the protagonist in Chinatown. Jake's bandaged nose was a metaphor for his habit of prying into the affairs of others.

[DrunkSister]

GRRM mentions John Julius Norwich in his website, who wrote about Byzantium so perhaps he was familiar with Justinian II.

What is interesting is that Justinian II after his nose was cut, he had it replaced with a golden replica.

If GRRM knows about Justinian II, I am suddenly very worried about Tyrion! Justinian was not so bad in the beginning, very brave, cunning, never gave up, but when he came back to Constantinople he was nothing more than a vengeance monster. He was overthrown and his wife and kid killed alongside him.

I am so worried now! :worried:

Have textbooks and encyclopedias to consult. Will be back.

[Blisscraft]

Ragnorak - In the Gospel of John, chapter 3, beginning at verse 3, Nicodemus converserse with Jesus. Nicodemus asks, "How can a grown man be born? Can he go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" Jesus answers, ". . . unless a man be born through water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God: what is born of the flesh is flesh; what is born of the Spirit is Spirit." (This is from The Jerusalem Bible, so other translations may differ slightly).

There is more to the passage as explanation, but I don't want to get too far off Tyrion. However, this is one of the main scriptual passages regarding the importance of baptism.

This is what I was refering to when I suggested that Tyrion has been born again, rather than reborn. It may be a disctinction without a difference and I am not disagreeing with the proliferation of "infant" images in Tyrion's chapters. However, there is still Nicodemus' question and Jesus' answer. This seems to me as the turning point, (the hinge) in Tyrion's character development: from flesh to Spirit; from "Lannister," to Tyrion. This transition becomes more apparent in the exchange with Tywin who will not recognize Tyrion as his "flesh and blood," and make him his "rightful heir" to Casterly Rock. By the time we get to the Shae scene in the next chapter, Tyrion is beginning to "put away" childish things. He knows he cannot "keep" Shae in the manner (manor) he might have before the Blackwater and confrontation with Tywin.

One other thing about the hinge - there is a quote from Othello regarding the hinge. In Act III, scene iii, (it's the hankie scene), Othello says to Iago, "Villain, be sure thou prove my love a whore. . . Make we to see't; or at least so prove it that the probation bear no hinge nor loop to hang a doubt on--- or woe upon thy life. . ."

The "hinge" in Tyrion's chapter is perhaps an allusion to this as well as a foreshadowing of Tyrion strangling Shae in the Hand's bed, as Othello does to Desdemona.

[Lykos]

Danelle, like minds. :) John Julius Norwich is a very interesting find, I should take a look at Martin´s website more often. His books about Byzantium could be just the ones I´ve been looking for in Rereading Tyrion II.

I wondered who this ruler of Jerusalem was, Martin had read about, and think that it was probably one of the later Abbasid Caliphs starting with Al-Mu'tazz in 866, though the first Abbasid Caliph As-Saffah tried to wipe out all the remaining members of the previous dynasty, just as Robert and Tywin did.

[Elba the Intoner]

Great point about the adolescent behavior of Tyrion in this chapter, especially his discussion of love with Loras. Loras is the one who comes off more mature if you ask me. His line about "Once the sun has set no candle can replace it" is quite beautiful and romantic in a sappy sort of way, yet Tyrion just disregards it as him being overly melodramatic (as teenagers are wont to be) even though he himself has never gotten over Tysha. His petty jealousy over Bronn visiting Chataya's and having Yaya is adolescent behavior as well.

Also, I was very surprised to read his thoughts about Shae here when he says that he was met with a sullen wall of icy courtesy as big as the Wall (paraphrasing). I could have sworn he thought that in relation to Sansa once they are married but I am seeing it here with Shae. It surprised me. I'll have to keep a lookout for if he does in fact think this with Sansa later but it surely must be a parallel to his relationship to the two, especially when they don't give him what he wants. I've also decided that when Shae is sullen and silent for a while, that she is trying to assess what her next move will be. Notice it happens after Tyrion says no to all her requests after she has pulled out all the stops as Ragnorak noted above. I think she was thinking over for a few moments how she will handle her situation. Right after she seems very acquiescent and says okay I still want to be your girl to Tyrion. She does not want to go back to being a camp follower or just a "common whore". She wants some kind of stability with someone powerful.

Finally, after reading all the comments on Tywin from the last chapter, and how he was not even the one who planned any of the strategy for winning the Battle of the Blackwater and almost lost on the trident to Edmure, I realize that Tywin is not a good battle commander at all! He's good at planning very treacherous acts of destruction like the red wedding and the trickery at Duskendale, but his other history in battles are utter failures. IN the last phases of Robert's Rebellion, he only comes in at the end to help in a very late Lord Frey type of maneuver, he lost the Battle of the Greenfork, he was forced back by Edmure, and the Battle of the Blackwater victory, where again he came in at the very last push of fighting, was not even his plan. He's terrible when it comes to battle planning and skill as it turns out.

[DrunkSister]

Parallels between Justinian II and Tyrion? None, unless Tyrion marries a dothraki girl who then starts worshiping the Seven. Then I will be worried. :D

The period itself though: wildfire first used 674-8 in a siege of Constantinople (and there is a chain); invasions of Slavs and various tribes of mounted warriors from Asia, those people either settle on their own, or make a deal with the rulers to get land; eunuchs and corrupt financiers galore; civil wars with several different pretenders; Heraclius coming from Carthage (like Aegon I ?) to become emperor in Constantinople, has children by two wives, one of them is his cousin, next generation has something that might look like the dance of dragons if you squint... oh, yea, that plague that raged in time of Justinian I has a repeat performance occasionally.

Definitely an influence, but it is seamlessly combined with other influences.

[Lummel]

I'm going to desperately and foolishly attempt to catch up on the posts I've missed!

This is a great point. Tyrion has lost his trappings of power: both his cloak, his outfit (we see him commenting on Tywin now wearing the "Hand" necklace) and his station in that Tywin has usurped his chambers. All really driven home in that Tyrion has to appear in front of Tywin in a bedrobe instead of something properly stately. Poor Tyrion here, his clothing really helps emphasise his weakness more.

Yes the father has supplanted the son. Sorry to bang on about this but this is why I thought the post that Ran made about Shae was interesting because it suggests we could be in a realm where Tyrion wants to win his father's approval but that Tywin sees Tyrion as a rival and consciously or unconsciously seeks to assert himself over Tyrion in every situation, here quite visibly by taking his quarters, wearing his chain of office and taking his job.

Tyrion's injuries.

In his first battle Tyrion only injured his elbow. Here he injures his shoulder at the arm and his face.

Well we could continue that thought by saying that the pattern continues with a psychological injury at the end of ASOS that will take even longer to recover from and will leave a deeper scar of its own.

I'm not one for the Sandor stuff, but I will say that facial injuries are a kind of mark of Cain that will set a person apart and mark them out as ill fated.

So none of the conflict that played out between Tyrion and Cersei can really be any great mystery to Tywin. He intentionaly set it up to play out that way...

It suggests family dynamic of divide and conquor!

Except for a begrudging acknowledgment of the chain and a simultaneously criticized recognition of the Dorne alliance Tywin denies every part Tyrion played. A Dorne/Lannister alliance was a diplomatic impossibility and denied the Starks and Stannis an invaluable ally.

Its also a lovely bit of mirroring. Tyrion fought a war by writing an important letter and so does Tywin too. This could be part of the root of their problem - they are too alike.

...Addam Marbrand is very cordial with Tyrion. He is also quite open with what he discussed with Tywin and even shares Tywin's mood. He even shares his troubles with Tyrion as if Tyrion might have some influence on the matter. There is also no mention of him reacting negatively to Tyrion's scar either. Is this because he was a childhood friend of Jaime's or does Marbrand have some respect for Tyrion in his own right? One thing in particular that struck me is that he does not come off as someone who knows Tyrion had been disinherited by Tywin. Quite the opposite. Although Tywin states his intent is for Tyrion to never get the Rock has he actually told anyone?...

We saw this also when Tyrion arrived at Tywin's camp in AGOT. There were knights shouting out greetings to Tyrion. I would think that Tyrion probably is reasonably liked among the westermen as a witty and amusing companion, but for sure they can all see that he is the logical heir to Casterly Rock, unless Tywin names one of Cersei's as heir. Only Tywin seems to seriously consider Jaime as heir - his propensity for odd blind spots is a weakness he shares with Tyrion - and as Roose Bolton, immortal source of wisdom that he is, says 'a child heir is the bane of a house' (or words to that effect, I can't remember the exact quote). So reasonably I think a lot of the Lannister bannermen are going to be looking at Tyrion as the next great Lord of Casterly Rock, the man that they are going to have to work with and deal with in the future.

Really if the sucession was contested and you were a Lannister Bannerman who would you back for Lord, Tommen or Tyrion?

...We know that the monster aspect has been emphasized through the desfiguration suffered because of his battle wounds, being the most physically striking the one caused by his sister's catspaw. I read earlier the connetion between Tyrion's condition and that of a rebirth/newborn. What if this rebirth is that of a a more "monstruous" for lack of a better word, side of Tyrion? The corruption of Tywin's original order into a more destructive interpretation of it is an indication of Tyrion's own transformation.

I think so. The Lannister family is in a state of war in ACOK. I could agree that war and rebirth through war does make Tyrion more monsterous, or emphases that side of his nature.

...EDIT: It makes you wonder if Tywin is not also bullshitting Tyrion completely when he claims Lollys is the best marriage offer he has got for Tyrion. Even if Tyrion is a dwarf, he is also the formal heir to Casterly Rock by Westerosi law, being Tywin's oldest male heir that hasn't joined a celibate order and is marrying material. It seems highly unlikely that no ambitious lord would have approached Tywin with an offer of a daughter of marriable age apart from Lollys. Especially since Tywin completely disregards Oberyn's reputation when he considers having Cersei marry again.

I doubt that Tywin was telling the truth. Don't want to get ahead here, but that is said to Tyrion in very specific circumstances. Unless the prejustice against dwarfs is very extreme in Westeros it seems impossible to imagine that a noble would turn down a marriage to somebody who looks like the heir to Casterly Rock - even if unacknowledged.

...when I reread this chapter was struck by how much Tyrion has fallen into self pity...

Tywin's loyalty to his famlity as a whole is offended by Tyrion siding with Alayaya over Tommen. Tyrion doesn't seem to get how disloyal and stupid his threats to Tommen are to Cersei and the rest of the Lannisters.

Tyrion remains focused upon what the great job he did as "acting" Hand. "I saved your bloody city" and he wants, "some bloody gratitude." Tyrion acts as if he's been supplanted by Tywin as Hand, even though from the beginning he knew he was merely keeping the seat warm for Tywin. Tyrion acts as if his ideas and sacrifice were what kept KL from falling to Stannis which is not the case. It was a team effort, but Tyrion is not a team player. It's this lack of humility, in addition to Tyrion's self pity, that Tywin despises. It's no wonder Tywin blows his stack when Tyrion asserts his desire for CR.

Yes, agree. The Lannisters aren't team players as a whole, particularly compared to what we will later see from the Tyrells. They are all working against each other!

[Lummel]

...Renly's peach and the brothel the Peach come to mind. The lemons make me think of Dorne. No specific ideas though.

well Varys does have to act as a panderer and a procurer for Tyrion here which would fit with the Peach. Some people might also describe a lemon as being a little tart (if you will excuse the bad joke :laugh:)

...Varys seems to have a bit of a thing for tradition...

which Blackfyrist that I am I find interesting and seize on as potential evidence because Varys seems to have good knowledge of the history of the targaryens in westeros. That seems a bit out of the ordinary for a theiving gutter snipe from the free cities obseessed with collecting secrets for their future value.

I looked for newborn/rebirth symbolism but what I saw was overwhelmingly adolescent insecurity. The tryst with Shae is even like teenagers sneaking out the window after the lights go out. His jealously of the knight on the stairs and Bronn seems like a significant regression from where he was last book even when compared to his choice of ugly guards for Shae. His scar and missing nose seem to have heightened his own insecurity about his body. Tywin's choice of "waddle" last chapter may play into that as well.

There's nothing new about that insecurity about his waddle we get that too when Tyrion meets up with Tywin in AGOT. Adolescence follows on from childhood so it could be a continuation of the idea.

... He sees that the chambers are too sparse and notes the complete lack of papers...

Doesn't Jaime make a similar observation when he is waiting for Varys in AFFC? Varys illustrates that what you see isn't what you get. Perhaps everything we see is a performance, alternatively - does he actually use those chambers for sleeping or work? Or are they just another aspect of his performance?

Tyrion and Shae are at cross purposes throughout this meeting. We are told Tyrion's thoughts, but have to work out what Shae's are from what she says...

I thought the subtext here was "I'm a prostitute, pay me what's mine". She is somebody else who is performing, it's not just Varys.

I have just come upon some very interesting hints at Tyrion's relation to religion while rereading ADWD. We know from his POV that Tyrion once wanted to be a septon and he is, I believe the character who gives us the most quotations and excerpts of texts from the faith of the seven. This is of course especially remarkable since Tyrion sees himself as agnostic. And he delivers lots of proofs below his sarcasm that indeed he is not an outright atheist but has some awe for spirituality while despising religious fanatics. This might bena very personal approach of the author towards that topic, given that Martin declared himself what? an atheist or agnostic? ...

interesting observation. I've read that GRRM was brought up as a Catholic but is not practising, actualy I think I heard that on one of the interviews. Have you spotted other religious quotations from before ADWD in what Tyrion says?

During this reread I try and pretend I am a fly on the wall and from that perspective:

If I were Loras, I would feel both insulted and hurt by Tyrion's comments.

He begins very condescendingly ''How old are you, Ser Loras?'' and it goes downhill from there:

...

Then Tyrion smiles 'mockingly' and starts teasing about lands, titles, marriage, children... Does Tyrion really not know about R+L? There he is thinking that Loras used to be as colorful as a rainbow and not taking a hint, lol.

...

And in Byzantine Empire there was a time when overthrown emperors would lose their nose and that would make them unfit to rule (Justinian II The Awesome came back with vengeance anyway and the custom was abandoned).

Is Tyrion symbolically disinherited?

There are other maimings done as a punishment for crimes. For certain crimes a person would lose a nose/ear/beard/hand/arm/both hands/eyes etc. But I don't think Martin was inspired by Bizantium. Perhaps other places?...

The maiming is an interesting idea, though the Byzantines were also found of blinding ex-Emperors or would be emperors (things were much nicer among the Merovingians where a short haircut had the same effect!). I had been thinking of it more as a mark of Cain, something that puts Tyrion outside of society. It creates a parallel to Varys too who is also disfigured.

Tyrion and Loras reminded me of Tyrion and Jon back in Tyrion II AGOT, except here Loras stands up for himself and answers back rather than getting visibly upset. Putting people down through how he talks to them is something we see also in ADWD. Don't know if it is bullying, or assertiveness, or jealously of the young and better looking :dunno:

Great point about the adolescent behavior of Tyrion in this chapter, especially his discussion of love with Loras. Loras is the one who comes off more mature if you ask me. His line about "Once the sun has set no candle can replace it" is quite beautiful and romantic in a sappy sort of way, yet Tyrion just disregards it as him being overly melodramatic (as teenagers are wont to be) even though he himself has never gotten over Tysha. His petty jealousy over Bronn visiting Chataya's and having Yaya is adolescent behavior as well.

Plenty of jealousy here in this chapter about 'his' women, first the knight helping Shae with her bucket of water, then with Bronn sleeping with 'his' Alayaya - shades of Tyrion I ACOK. Interesting that Bronn is muscling in on Tyrion's territory. First he takes his coin, then his food, then his woman - ending up of course with the fabled could have been wife Lollys!

Also, I was very surprised to read his thoughts about Shae here when he says that he was met with a sullen wall of icy courtesy as big as the Wall (paraphrasing)...

I think that is the only time that Shae is ever associated with courtesy!

[Ragnorak]

<snip>

There's nothing new about that insecurity about his waddle we get that too when Tyrion meets up with Tywin in AGOT. Adolescence follows on from childhood so it could be a continuation of the idea.

<snip>

Welcome back, Lummel!

While I particularly like Blisscraft's baptism ideas (especially with all the rivers showing up) I had also pondered the adolecence following childhood idea. I've wondered if we're seeing a replay of some kind of Tyrion's past without Jaime as his protector where he relives/confronts the same elements. He's trying to hide Shae from Tywin this time, he gets Master of Coin as a job instead of the drains, but I'm not sure if there's enough to support it. He did revisit the circumstances of his birth and he'll revisit a number of circumstances of his past as we progress but I'm not sure if they fit a rebirth followed by growing up again theme. Hope you enjoyed your time away.

[Lummel]

I don't think it is necessarily a continuing theme. It could simply have been an event, a baptism of fire to use the old phrase. And I suppose I am driving at what Blisscraft was suggesting that it marked a spiritual change. Now after the event for the first time Tyrion was able to ask about Casterly Rock which was the proverbial elephant in the room, the big unacknowledged, undiscussed issue.

[DrunkSister]

Don't know if it is bullying, or assertiveness, or jealously of the young and better looking :dunno:

I didn't get any sense from this encounter that Tyrion is aware that what he is saying is so rude or hurtful. He describes himself as smiling mockingly but never examines his motive for it. Whatever his reasons for speaking to people that way, they are buried deep down. He is not aware of them IMO.

On the other hand, when he has an impulse to be kind, he is taken by surprise.

I am sure this is very telling, I am just not sure what exactly it is supposed to mean. :)

[Woman of War]

interesting observation.&#160;&#160;I've read that GRRM was brought up as a Catholic but is not practising, actualy I think I heard that on one of the interviews.&#160;&#160;Have you spotted other religious quotations from before ADWD in what Tyrion says?

umm, I believe I remember some, only I cannot quote from my kindle and have trouble to leaf back to them, when quoting I have to type every single word of each quote.

Lazy at the moment, I admit. And the quoting problem is annoying.

But what I have just reread in ADWD (I had reread ASOS and AFFC two months ago) is that Tyrion spontaneously names himself after the mythical king that had an important role in founding the faith of the Seven, Hugor Hill. You do not do that so in a spontaneous situation if those traditions have no meaning at all to you. And there will be much more with Moquorro, but this is too far away now.

In the third book I got the impression that Tyrion with some witty remarks consciously tries to fool himself about the influence his former religious belief still has on him. For many of us who may have grown up in the religious traditions of their families it may be opposition to shed that past, for Tyrion it was oppostion against Tywin to be religious. Was that religiosity destroyed by falling in love, as Tyrion himself claims, or by the Tysha catastrophe? Did he see himself beyond the mercy of gods? (since I am already lost I can as well mock them). Or is Tyrion the pre modern character who refuses Pascal's wager?

Damn, I cannot find anything in the Kindle if I have not marked it during reading.

[Lummel]

I didn't get any sense from this encounter that Tyrion is aware that what he is saying is so rude or hurtful. He describes himself as smiling mockingly but never examines his motive for it...

I don't know. He describes it as exchanging intimacies but his remarks to Loras are very personal, even cutting.

...In the third book I got the impression that Tyrion with some witty remarks consciously tries to fool himself about the influence his former religious belief still has on him. For many of us who may have grown up in the religious traditions of their families it may be opposition to shed that past, for Tyrion it was oppostion against Tywin to be religious. Was that religiosity destroyed by falling in love, as Tyrion himself claims, or by the Tysha catastrophe? Did he see himself beyond the mercy of gods? (since I am already lost I can as well mock them). Or is Tyrion the pre modern character who refuses Pascal's wager?

Damn, I cannot find anything in the Kindle if I have not marked it during reading.

Well it's something else we can look out for then...I too have to type out every word in a quote by hand, no cut and paste for me either!

[Ragnorak]

With the talk of Tyrion and the Seven I noticed something curious...

House Tarbeck's arms were a seven pointed star. It turns out House Castamere's arms are a red lion on silver with a gold tongue. It is reared up and looking over its shoulder.

I wish I had taken note of this earlier to pay more specific attention to Tyrion's garb and to look for references to red lions and silver.

A red lion rampant regardant with a forked tail, armed and langued gold, on silver

A 7-pointed star, countercharged, on gyronny silver and blue

[the Scorpion Knight]

Winterfellian-- To continue with the Smith theme, who Tyrion really is has been forged by Tywin even though he may not be the creation that was intended. I like the observation of how Tywin is winning loyalty. Where I went with it in my head was that he is diminishing his own children to help elevate his own position which fits with my idea that he is poisoning his own legacy-- but I'm hesitant to attribute my own negative Tywin sentiments to your post.

grab on that thought for a moment considering that he is barely missed aftzer his death least of all his children

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones Tyrion-or have you forgotten that you are still to recover from Tysha, the girl you fell in love with at thirteen?

I think tyrion himself doesn't realise that:

a) people think in diffrent ways

B) otten his advise he shoukld listen to himself

[Uncat]

Hmm I'm rather impressed that this worked...multi-posting from the previous thread!

I miss her too. I saw her post recently and sent her a PM but I haven't had a reply :( she was a good poster with some fantastic spelling mistakes.

Ahh, you guys! You are too sweet, missing me.

Great thread btw.

[A wilding]

grab on that thought for a moment considering that he is barely missed after his death least of all his children

He stays in the minds of his children after his death though. Though they remember him in different ways.

Jaime wonders how Tywin will get Westeros through the coming winter, before remembering he is dead. Cersei thinks about how she will outdo Tywin's achievements. And we will see how Tyrion remembers him when we get to ADwD.