Sworn Shield Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 What Jaime said about Renly sums him up pretty well."Renly would have been the best dressed king ... and that's about it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebevan91 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Ok, but I guess what's missing here is that by virtue of the fact that a king must be given fealty/ sworn oaths means that there's something more to power/ rightfulness/ etc than "legal" succession. And yes, I understand that according to succession Renly is obviously overstepping the law, but I'm not so sure I feel that we should treat this "law" as some graven touchstone of immovable virtue.I don't think of it as "rightful heir." I don't think anyone's really "rightful" at this point.Well, who should be king then? The first to conquer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olavtheking Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Of course. Stannis is only human. However he is still one of the most righteous characters in the entire series. He believes in doing the 'right' thing rather than necessarily doing what benefits him personally. He's also a nice guy, if you read Davos' chapters closely.A nice guy? Now you've crossed the line ser :shocked: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Ok, but I guess what's missing here is that by virtue of the fact that a king must be given fealty/ sworn oaths means that there's something more to power/ rightfulness/ etc than "legal" succession. And yes, I understand that according to succession Renly is obviously overstepping the law, but I'm not so sure I feel that we should treat this "law" as some graven touchstone of immovable virtue.I wouldn't necessarily say so either. My point is only that Stannis was legally justified, and even if the underpinning justification is flawed, Stannis still fights for some reasonable conception of what is "right." I'm not a fan of Renly being killed, mind you, but I will argue that it is justified. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 And in one sense he did. Except that he did it with no justifiable legal basis.Really? He served the Iron Throne and Robb was a rebel. Robb's life was forfeit anyway and anyone who follwed him were traitors.Why waste more lives and money if you can murder him off the battlefield? He "deserves" to die anyway, no?Same logic as Stan used unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 What Jaime said about Renly sums him up pretty well."Renly would have been the best dressed king ... and that's about it."Nobody is a good choice for the throne because every single person who have fought for that throne(excluding Robb)has shown the terrible lengths they will go for the ugly chair. Stannis is not a better king in any way, he's a fanatic in everything he does its scary and extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Really? He served the Iron Throne and Robb was a rebel. Robb's life was forfeit anyway and anyone who follwed him were traitors.Traitors to Stannis, not to Joffrey or Tommen who have no claim. They do not claim the Iron Throne by right of conquest. They claim it as Baratheons and Robert's heirs.Why waste more lives and money if you can murder him off the battlefield? He "deserves" to die anyway, no?If it had been done by someone with a more justifiable claim, then sure, why now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Nobody is a good choice for the throne because every single person who have fought for that throne(excluding Robb)has shown the terrible lengths they will go for the ugly chair. Stannis is not a better king in any way, he's a fanatic in everything he does its scary and extreme.Stannis is the better king. He believes in justice and fairness. He believes in meritocracy. He believes in good rule and good council. He's also the only intelligent Baratheon. Robb only demonstrated that he and Ned are totally useless when it comes to politics. Nice guys cannot rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Traitors to Stannis, not to Joffrey or Tommen who have no claim. They do not claim the Iron Throne by right of conquest. They claim it as Baratheons and Robert's heirs.If it had been done by someone with a more justifiable claim, then sure, why now?Your forgeting that Stannis made the whole thing happen with his leeches. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NitzanLeo Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I will be very, very thorougly pissed if he dies in the Battle of Winterfell, since I'll probably feel it's a bit anticlimatic. But I won't be pissed if he dies near the end of TWOW, or at any point during ADOS. You can't be too angry when Martin kills of a character, because in the end it's always for the good of the story, and I think it would do bad for the story if Stannis dies in the Battle of Wintefell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I wouldn't necessarily say so either. My point is only that Stannis was legally justified, and even if the underpinning justification is flawed, Stannis still fights for some reasonable conception of what is "right." I'm not a fan of Renly being killed, mind you, but I will justify it. :)I agree with you mostly, Ab, just to be clear. I think that Stannis is the best of many evils at the moment, but I think that there's a more complicated issue of power construction that plays into the issue of "rightful," as well as doing well for one's people and their reciprocated recognition of your power.Well, who should be king then? The first to conquer?It's a complicated question-- I'm not sure what you're asking, actually. I don't believe right of conquest = rightful in and of itself; Dany "conquered" Meereen, and she's not exactly commanding much obedience or recognition as an authority there.I think the best king in terms of ability, intelligence and understanding of a leader's responsibilities is Jon. He has little no no power, though, and he's not likely to garner public support by traditional rubrics, even if he knows of R+L. I think Stannis is mostly competent and smart, but he doesn't get the big picture or enlightened view the way Jon does. He's also capable of cruelty and a lot of moral compromise. He has "the law" on his side, but not popular recognition, nor enough power to really be seen as "rightful" I fear. Dany is the one who has the "right of conquest" power at her disposal, but by far I think the least of her ruling abilities, nor do I appreciate the fact that she's so disconnected to her "subjects" to consider her rightful. Is that kind of what you're asking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Your forgeting that Stannis made the whole thing happen with his leeches. :laugh:Ah yes, Leeches. The immortal race of squishy things with the ability to create a magical explanation for something that had a satisfactory explanation already. We have dismissed that claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jslay427 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Where have you gone Mr Baratheon,R'hllor holds a place for those who slay,Hey hey hey, hey hey hey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I agree with you mostly, Ab, just to be clear. I think that Stannis is the best of many evils at the moment, but I think that there's a more complicated issue of power construction that plays into the issue of "rightful," as well as doing well for one's people and their reciprocated recognition of your power.Agreed, but as Jorah and others have pointed out. People don't care who the king is so long as they have food and safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Agreed, but as Jorah and others have pointed out. People don't care who the king is so long as they have food and safety.By "popular" I meant the lords who command their own bannermen, which is where Renly had the advantage over Stannis. But we've seen smallfolk unrest come close to making an impact, such in the aCoK riot scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 By "popular" I meant the lords who command their own bannermen, which is where Renly had the advantage over Stannis. But we've seen smallfolk unrest come close to making an impact, such in the aCoK riot scene.Sure, but popularity shifts. As Stannis points out, people follow him because they fear him while they followed Robert and Renly because they loved them. You also can't separate popularity among the lords from the appearance of inevitability or success. Renly was charismatic and popular, but people followed him because they thought he was going to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Sure, but popularity shifts. As Stannis points out, people follow him because they fear him while they followed Robert and Renly because they loved them. You also can't separate popularity among the lords from the appearance of inevitability or success. Renly was charismatic and popular, but people followed him because they thought he was going to win.Which is why Varys really ought to be king, because he's the only one who seems to fully understand the illusory nature of power and "rightful" (half joking).lol.....I have to take care of some things. Will return later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Stark Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I don't feel the passion for Stannis that most people seem to have, still I do like him, so if he died I would pretty much say, "Oh, well that's too bad..." Then go about my day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conchobar Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Grind my teeth and keep reading.this ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian of the Lhazareen Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Ah yes, Leeches. The immortal race of squishy things with the ability to create a magical explanation for something that had a satisfactory explanation already. We have dismissed that claim.differnt rules aply to the universe of GRRM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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