butterbumps! Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I think rightful is a slippery slope, and I try to avoid it. Arguably no-one is rightful, imo, not even Aegon the Conqueror. So I agree.Ok, but if we're in agreement, then my point is who is anyone to say that Renly was in fact a traitor and deserved to be summarily destroyed rather than Stannis bending the knee?I have an argument as to why Stannis ought not have bent, but it has absolutely nothing to do with how either men conceive of kingship/ ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olavtheking Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I didn't say that it was Stannis' main argument, did I? ;) And it was Renly who made a cowardly and unwesterosi claim to the Throne in the first place. Not even because he knew Joffrey was a bastard, because he didn't know that, nooo, he did it just because he thought he'd be the best King.A member of the royal family claiming kingship and thereby surpassing other relatives? That is a lot more Westerosi then sending a shadow baby which you just conceived by fucking a red witch from asshai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Congrats, you've just cleared Tywin Lannister for the RW!Seriously, Stan is guilty of kinslaying and murder, there really is no way to justify it. And the irony is that 99% of Westeros don't even see him as the rightful heir...How is killing Renly Baratheon, who wanted to kill Stannis Baratheon, his brother who is the one and only legal and rightful King of Westeros because Renly was being arrogant and all, the same as the Red Wedding, which was a breach of guest right which is the most sacred thing in Westeros, killed 3500 bannermen in a much cowardly way whereafter they blame everything on the Northern men and usurp the North?Neh. You're not going to convince me to follow that logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sworn Shield Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 When the King in the North is unavailable, we must turn to the King who saved the North. I'm trying to imagine what could possibly kill Stannis Baratheon, hmmm nope can't do it."This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Ok, but if we're in agreement, then my point is who is anyone to say that Renly was in fact a traitor and deserved to be summarily destroyed rather than Stannis bending the knee?I have an argument as to why Stannis ought not have bent, but it has absolutely nothing to do with how either men conceive of kingship/ ruling.Because if Stannis is only legally the king, Renly still owes him fealty, legally. So Renly is still a traitor and under the law he should be executed. Renly had no claim whatsoever other than use of force, so by any estimation, Renly's claim was legally and rightfully weaker than Stannis'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 If Stannis died I would hail the rightful Queen, Shireen, first of her name, unless Stannis has a boy by then somehow. It just would not be the same however Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcloak Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I think Stannis is a way more flawed character than some of his fans on here make out, he is still great to read about though.Still, him dying isn't going to hit me like the Red Wedding (or Ned's execution, Bran's fall, putting Lady down, the attack on Jon, the deaths of Oberyn, Yoren, Maester Aemon.......), I'd just keep reading. If he gets an awesome death scene (personally I can only picture the Others killing him when they take the Wall) it could be great. Davos dying on the other hand.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Whats this whole talk of "Westerosi?" Thats not even a thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Stannis does not care about that, as long as he gets the Throne, so it wasn't his main argument for killing Renly in such a cowardly (and UNWESTEROSI) way^^^^ So much word and than some and if Stannis is so intent on burning somebody to save the world, why don't he self sacrifice and burn his self? I mean he is a king why don't he go all the way to save the realm from the others and sacrifice his self since he is so quick to sacrifice people to save the realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebevan91 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I'm not making an argument for a Targ, just to be clear. I'm trying to be clear that I get the legal aspect of this, but that legal=/= rightful, and I do not believe that Stannis, Dany, Renly, or Aegon or even beloved Jon are rightful at this point.Who do you believe is the rightful heir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olavtheking Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Meh lets just stop this discussion, Stannis was in a tough position nobody played by the rules so he couldn't play by them aswell. I just liked Renly and I hated the abrupt way in which he was killed and what that meant to the war effort (Lannisters and Tyrells joining up) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 A member of the royal family claiming kingship and thereby surpassing other relatives? That is a lot more Westerosi then sending a shadow baby which you just conceived by fucking a red witch from asshai.A 20-year-old member of the royal family claiming kingship, despite at least thinking Joffrey Baratheon is the rightful heir and knowing Stannis Baratheon would come before you no matter what isn't really that Westerosi. Rhaenyra and the Blackfyre both had a solid claim to the Throne. Not really comparable to this imo.But, alas, my alarm goes off in about 6 hours. I'd say goodnight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Whats this whole talk of "Westerosi?" Thats not even a thing...Sure it is. It's used all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 ^^^^ So much word and than some and if Stannis is so intent on burning somebody to save the world, why don't he self sacrifice and burn his self? I mean he is a king why don't he go all the way to save the realm from the others and sacrifice his self since he is so quick to sacrifice people to save the realm.Because the paradigm in which he is situated stipulates that he must survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreyKraken Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I would cry myself to sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Baratheon Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I would grieve for one of my favourite five characters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I think Stannis is a way more flawed character than some of his fans on here make out, he is still great to read about though.Still, him dying isn't going to hit me like the Red Wedding (or Ned's execution, Bran's fall, putting Lady down, the attack on Jon), I'd just keep reading. If he gets an awesome death scene (personally I can only picture the Others killing him when the take the Wall) it could be great. Davos dying on the other hand..........Of course. Stannis is only human. However he is still one of the most righteous characters in the entire series. He believes in doing the 'right' thing rather than necessarily doing what benefits him personally. He's also a nice guy, if you read Davos' chapters closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 How is killing Renly Baratheon, who wanted to kill Stannis Baratheon, his brother who is the one and only legal and rightful King of Westeros because Renly was being arrogant and all, the same as the Red Wedding, which was a breach of guest right which is the most sacred thing in Westeros, killed 3500 bannermen in a much cowardly way whereafter they blame everything on the Northern men and usurp the North?Neh. You're not going to convince me to follow that logic.I don't expect to convince you. I'm just saying you're using the same logic as Tywin did. Namely sparing his own troops of continueing fighting Robb while getting off the hook by not getting blamed. That Stan had the "decency" to only kill Renly is just a factor of numbers. Kill one man and its called a tragedy, kill a thousend and its a statistic...At any rate Tywin figured he did Westeros a favour by pacifying it and ending the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Because if Stannis is only legally the king, Renly still owes him fealty, legally. So Renly is still a traitor and under the law he should be executed. Renly had no claim whatsoever other than use of force, so by any estimation, Renly's claim was legally and rightfully weaker than Stannis'.Ok, but I guess what's missing here is that by virtue of the fact that a king must be given fealty/ sworn oaths means that there's something more to power/ rightfulness/ etc than "legal" succession. And yes, I understand that according to succession Renly is obviously overstepping the law, but I'm not so sure I feel that we should treat this "law" as some graven touchstone of immovable virtue.Who do you believe is the rightful heir?I don't think of it as "rightful heir." I don't think anyone's really "rightful" at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I don't expect to convince you. I'm just saying you're using the same logic as Tywin did. Namely sparing his own troops of continueing fighting Robb while getting off the hook by not getting blamed. That Stan had the "decency" to only kill Renly is just a factor of numbers. Kill one man and its called a tragedy, kill a thousend and its a statistic...At any rate Tywin figured he did Westeros a favour by pacifying it and ending the war.And in one sense he did. Except that he did it with no justifiable legal basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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