Former Lord of Winterfell Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 I disagree, on both points.I can reasonably get to my safe, open in, and ruin someone's day in a hurry. If you are that concerned with home defense, you have a working alarm system setup, and a way to notify you in case of an intrusion. As for the shotguns. I'm not sure where you live, but tactical shotguns are still legal in the wild west, and are my standby for home defense. They are what I use, and what I recommend others getting for that function. Less room for error, more 'intimidation factor', and multifunctional. There are plenty of instances of shotguns being used effectively for home defense. It may be that a shorter-barrelled shotgun is ideal (though opinions may vary given the possibility of hitting someone other than the target because of spread), but that doesn't mean that a regular shotgun is not effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 The logic goes "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this!"Amen -- and that's not a logical fallacy limited to guns, either. Doing "something" may have no measureable beneficial effect, or it can sometimes make things worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 The best reason to own a shotgun for home defense is that the sound of a shotgun cocking is the second best deterrent for burglars. The first is a dog, which makes me think that home defense really isn't the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 The best reason to own a shotgun for home defense is that the sound of a shotgun cocking is the second best deterrent for burglars. The first is a dog, which makes me think that home defense really isn't the issue.Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 The shotgun sends several lead balls downrange, the rifle one at a time. Given the desire to ensure that every single piece of lead sent goes where it's supposed to, why do you think it's unreasonable to want something a little more precise?You answered your own question. The shot gun is ideal for home defense because in that situation, most of the time it's going to be a nerve wracking, scary, dark, dangerous situation. To be able to tell someone, 'point this down the stairs/hallway/room, pull the trigger, and you will hit something' is a reassuring statement. If I said here, take this aught 6, line up a shot, get it off, and do so in the dark, you are going to be harder pressed to make that than with a shot gun. As for the criminal, one little piece of birdshot hurts like hell, and is going to slow them down dramatically, enough to get off another shot (do slug, shot, slug, shot if you want a more 'precise' follow on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Kalbear,After my house was broken into last year the first thing we did was ask my Mother in law to bring her dog to stay at our house. He's great, he only barks when he doesn't recognize someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupis42 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Birdshot isn't going to go into your neighbor's house or an adjoining apartment, probably not even another room. A rifle bullet will can do all those things.No, but birdshot won't actually stop anyone either - it won't go through a padded coat. Buckshot will - just like, say, a 9mm round fired from a carbine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 The best reason to own a shotgun for home defense is that the sound of a shotgun cocking is the second best deterrent for burglars. The first is a dog, which makes me think that home defense really isn't the issue.True, although the intruder may not hear or recognize the cocking sound, or it may be covered up by other noises, including the barking dog. The dog is really great, though, because even if the intruder is not dissuaded by the barking, it will at least maximize warning time. The gun itself is necessarily because some intruders may not be dissuaded by the cocking and/or dog.As to the cocking, I might (depending on the situation) be reluctant to give up the advantage of the intruder knowing I'm armed. If someone is coming up the stairs to the bedrooms, I'd prefer ensuring I get the first shot versus letting him know where I am, and that I'm armed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 No, but birdshot won't actually stop anyone either - it won't go through a padded coat. Buckshot will - just like, say, a 9mm round fired from a carbine.The fuck?If you have a shot gun, for home defense. Why the fuck would you put birdshot in it? Saying that though, the shit hurts. Fuck, Salt Rock hurts, enough to deter an intruder if pressed. #4 buckshot sends twenty one .22 cal projectiles moving at supersonic speeds. At any reasonable distance, the probability of creating a lethal wound is high.As much as I love this, we are getting wildly off topic, and i'm sure the Mods will sweep in and slap me in a min. So back to the bickering about laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Of House Hill Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 I disagree, on both points.I can reasonably get to my safe, open in, and ruin someone's day in a hurry. If you are that concerned with home defense, you have a working alarm system setup, and a way to notify you in case of an intrusion. As for the shotguns. I'm not sure where you live, but tactical shotguns are still legal in the wild west, and are my standby for home defense. They are what I use, and what I recommend others getting for that function. Less room for error, more 'intimidation factor', and multifunctional. If you want to be snotty about it though, get a fucking .410 handgun and make the compromise. P.s. Your syntax correction was cute. Assault Weapons it is, the point is, they are (unless heavily modified) not suited for home defense, and anyone that says other wise has never used the fuckers in any real situation. Just out of curiosity, Lorien, what is your background? I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but you come off sounding like a gun enthusiast with little in the way of practical experience.Some of the issues we disagree on, may be due to difference in "terrain", but my discussing the layout of things, here, doesn't seem appropriate. The layout of things restricts my use of any long-barreled weapon. I believe the revolver is my best choice, because it is maneuverable while offering me the possibility of concealing most of myself..My original weapons training and use, was military. This was continued by other sources, after I left the military.. At one time, I might have been described as an enthusiast, having done my own gunsmithing, ammunition reloading, etc., but, now, I just keep one firearm so that if the worst happens, and someone breaks into my home, I have something to use for defense. I, occasionally, leave the house, but the gun always stays home.The best reason to own a shotgun for home defense is that the sound of a shotgun cocking is the second best deterrent for burglars. The first is a dog, which makes me think that home defense really isn't the issue.It is difficult to hear a shotgun being cocked, over the sound of an alarm. An alarm will probably scare a would be intruder away and hopefully, that will be what happens (even better...no one ever tries to break in), but it is foolhardy to base a defense on a best case scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 You answered your own question. The shot gun is ideal for home defense because in that situation, most of the time it's going to be a nerve wracking, scary, dark, dangerous situation. To be able to tell someone, 'point this down the stairs/hallway/room, pull the trigger, and you will hit something' is a reassuring statement. If I said here, take this aught 6, line up a shot, get it off, and do so in the dark, you are going to be harder pressed to make that than with a shot gun. As for the criminal, one little piece of birdshot hurts like hell, and is going to slow them down dramatically, enough to get off another shot (do slug, shot, slug, shot if you want a more 'precise' follow on).The only thing I'd add is that a lot of the discussion about intruders may depend on the particular intruder. Someone bent on simply burglarly is more likely to flee when the dog barks or a shotgun round is being chambered. But if you've got someone hopped up on something, or someone specifically targetting people (either for rape, stalking, whatever), then the "warnings" may not be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupis42 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 You answered your own question. The shot gun is ideal for home defense because in that situation, most of the time it's going to be a nerve wracking, scary, dark, dangerous situation. To be able to tell someone, 'point this down the stairs/hallway/room, pull the trigger, and you will hit something' is a reassuring statement. If I said here, take this aught 6, line up a shot, get it off, and do so in the dark, you are going to be harder pressed to make that than with a shot gun. Except that's not actually true - shotgun patterns at 20' (a good sized room/hallway for most) are likely to be only 6-8" across, and with buckshot, there might only be 5 or 6 balls in that pattern (depending on your shotgun of choice) - so you have no certainty of hitting something.As for the criminal, one little piece of birdshot hurts like hell, and is going to slow them down dramatically, enough to get off another shot (do slug, shot, slug, shot if you want a more 'precise' follow on).If they have enough adrenaline for the flash and the noise not to be a problem, the birdshot isn't going to either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 There been any discussion of Los Angeles guns-for-groceries buyback program?The anonymous buyback program allowed weapons to be turned in with no questions asked. Handguns, rifles and shotguns could be exchanged for $100 Ralphs grocery store gift cards. Assault weapons earned a $200 card.The program, designed to get guns off the streets, usually is held in May. Villaraigosa decided to do it now in the wake of the Dec. 14 shooting rampage at Sandy Hook Elementary School.The last buyback netted about 1,700 guns.Seems like a worthwhile program. Particularly since I suspect most of the weapons turned in are unregistered. Why else would people prefer grocery gift cards to the cash they could get if they sold them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupis42 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 The fuck?If you have a shot gun, for home defense. Why the fuck would you put birdshot in it? I wouldn't - larrytheimp was arguing the reduced penetration of birdshot as a reason that a shotgun is ok but a carbine is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Except that's not actually true - shotgun patterns at 20' (a good sized room/hallway for most) are likely to be only 6-8" across, and with buckshot, there might only be 5 or 6 balls in that pattern (depending on your shotgun of choice) - so you have no certainty of hitting something.I think this may depend a lot on the user, and to some degree on the situation. At night, if I'm not able to see the target that well, shooting anything isn't a good idea in my house because we've got colleged-aged ones and their friends coming in or out a lot. In the daytime, visibility isn't an issue. And if you miss with a shotgun, reloading a pump (not to mention single-shot) is more cumbersome and slow than if you're using a pistol. So I could see some people preferring a revolver or other pistol. But I do think it takes more skill as well, so that may not be suitable for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 I wouldn't - larrytheimp was arguing the reduced penetration of birdshot as a reason that a shotgun is ok but a carbine is not.I was using a hyperbolic example.@Fez - There was talk about a similar program in San Diego a few threads back where they gave out $100 gift cards per gun. All funded by donations. Someone else on here said there was a guns for pizza program that they used to trade in all their grandfathers' guns (and apparently ate pizza for about a month straight). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 There been any discussion of Los Angeles guns-for-groceries buyback program?Seems like a worthwhile program. Particularly since I suspect most of the weapons turned in are unregistered. Why else would people prefer grocery gift cards to the cash they could get if they sold them?I bet a lot of those folks are just turning in "inherited" guns that have been sitting around somewhere and never used. The kind of people who just keep it in a drawer somewhere. Those folks probably shouldn't have guns anyway. And I do know that some more active gun owners take advantage of such programs to sell guns that no longer work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupis42 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 There been any discussion of Los Angeles guns-for-groceries buyback program?Seems like a worthwhile program. Particularly since I suspect most of the weapons turned in are unregistered. Why else would people prefer grocery gift cards to the cash they could get if they sold them?Often the "firearms" that are bought back aren't worth $100 - many of the things that get turned in around where I live are rusty old single shots from before serial numbers were required. Other times, the sellers inherited some stuff and have no idea of the value - which is how things like http://www.telegram.com/article/20121209/NEWS/112099765/1116 happen - that rifle was probably worth a couple grand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Often the "firearms" that are bought back aren't worth $100 - many of the things that get turned in around where I live are rusty old single shots from before serial numbers were required.Other times, the sellers inherited some stuff and have no idea of the value - which is how things like http://www.telegram..../112099765/1116 happen - that rifle was probably worth a couple grand.Either way, it gets unwanted, unused weapons out of circulation. Which I think both proponents and opponents of gun control agree is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Judah Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 http://www.futureswi...milies/Guns.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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